Time to get rid of USC, Property tax

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 5:48pm #1

The recession is over. People are back to filling a few hundred quid into their petrol V8 Range Rover and Jetski on the trailer behind it that they only bought because the bank manager told them it was a good idea. So time to get rid of these miserable recession-era taxes for good.

With the Single Malt loophole closing soon our overlords will be swimming with money so what better opportunity to give the ordinary people a break from the bullsh1t we've had to put up with for the past 10 years. Besides, the more tax we give them the more they'll waste

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 5:52pm

Quite agree. But I would bring back the Income Levy and the Health Levy/Contribution. And Domestic Rates.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 5:53pm

Property tax should stay.

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 5:54pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Property tax should stay.

Would you miss it?

vicwatson · 15-12-2018 5:54pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Besides, the more tax we give them the more they'll waste

This is an actual fact

zell12 · 15-12-2018 5:54pm

Where's your yella vest, caller?

Townton · 15-12-2018 5:58pm

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services. Most of it is spent on the civil services wages who constantly want to do less work for more money. Some might counter if we got good services would i accept high taxes. Answer no heard it so bloody often just give me my money back and i will take care of myself.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 5:59pm

This is what they waste it on.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

backspin. · 15-12-2018 5:59pm

Townton wrote: »

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services. Most of it is spent on the civil services wages who constantly want to do less work for more money. Some might counter if we got good services would i accept high taxes. Answer no heard it so bloody often just give me my money back and i will take care of myself.

Rubbish

Balanadan · 15-12-2018 6:00pm

Could there be a rebate whereby if you pay a certain amount of tax, you get a bottle of Champers as a thank-you?

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-12-2018 6:01pm

Neither are going anywhere. Hopefully nobody is shocked at this stage that we were lied to.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:03pm

Townton wrote: »

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services. Most of it is spent on the civil services wages who constantly want to do less work for more money. Some might counter if we got good services would i accept high taxes. Answer no heard it so bloody often just give me my money back and i will take care of myself.

When Property Tax and Motor Tax was abolished, the income tax rate for average earnings went up to 60%. I would prefer less tax on earnings, and more on assets, and more direct charges for services. If you are going to look after yourself you will need to build a road from your house to everywhere you want to travel.

Townton · 15-12-2018 6:04pm

vicwatson wrote: »

This is an actual fact

Government is inherently wasteful, only thing more sure then death and taxes is that government will waset a large percentage of the taxes it takes. Case in point the 15 million spent on moving the offices of the health department to a new building which lay empty for over a year with the main delay being mid level civil servents squabbling over if they would have their own office or an open plan. In the real world people would lose theor job for that in ireland it get a little bit of coverage in thw news papers. No inquire, no explanation and certainly no apology to the people whos money they took and spent.

Townton · 15-12-2018 6:07pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When Property Tax and Motor Tax was abolished, the income tax rate for average earnings went up to 60%. I would prefer less tax on earnings, and more on assets, and more direct charges for services. If you are going to look after yourself you will need to build a road from your house to everywhere you want to travel.

Please dont use such a simplistic line of argument. I didnt say no taxes i said less. This idea that less taxes equals no raod is ridiculous.

suicide_circus · 15-12-2018 6:08pm

need to be paying a lot more carbon taxes but until stuff like the HSE is nuked from orbit I'm opposed to tax increases on the basis that the government does not have the competence to deliver a myriad of basic services. there are also almost a million people in gainful employment who pay virtually no income tax. Everyone needs to be paying something before the middle income cows are milked any further.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:09pm

Townton wrote: »

Please dont use such a simplistic line of argument. I didnt say no taxes i said less. This idea that less taxes equals no raod is ridiculous.

I misunderstood. I thought you meant you wanted all your money back?

just give me my money back and i will take care of myself.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:12pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

need to be paying a lot more carbon taxes but until stuff like the HSE is nuked from orbit I'm opposed to tax increases on the basis that the government does not have the competence to deliver a myriad of basic services. there are also almost a million people in gainful employment who pay virtually no income tax. Everyone needs to be paying something before the middle income cows are milked any further.

As always I like to establish what someone means by middle income. To me it is about €80,000 a year for a two adult household.

An Ri rua · 15-12-2018 6:14pm

Townton wrote: »

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services. Most of it is spent on the civil services wages who constantly want to do less work for more money. Some might counter if we got good services would i accept high taxes. Answer no heard it so bloody often just give me my money back and i will take care of myself.

You probably mean public sector wages, but, it's ok, brain farts and inaccurate rants are what After Hours is all about.

suicide_circus · 15-12-2018 6:16pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As always I like to establish what someone means by middle income. To me it is about €80,000 a year for a two adult household.

yep I'd go along with that. Anywhere from 70-90k per household I'd call middle

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 6:16pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Would you miss it?

I don’t like any tax tbh.

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 6:16pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

need to be paying a lot more carbon taxes but until stuff like the HSE is nuked from orbit I'm opposed to tax increases on the basis that the government does not have the competence to deliver a myriad of basic services. there are also almost a million people in gainful employment who pay virtually no income tax. Everyone needs to be paying something before the middle income cows are milked any further.

We can get around the carbon tax problem by building a powerstation just south of the border but with it's chimney in the post-Brexit north.

Even private companies waste a good share of money in my experience, the government has to be about 10 times worse. Stuff like software licenses that nobody uses or where there's free alternatives available, taking up prime real estate when they could move further out of town, All the efforts spent complying with overbearing regulation that they created for themselves.

suicide_circus · 15-12-2018 6:19pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

We can get around the carbon tax problem by building a powerstation just south of the border but with it's chimney in the post-Brexit north.

Even private companies waste a good share of money in my experience, the government has to be about 10 times worse. Stuff like software licenses that nobody uses or where there's free alternatives available, taking up prime real estate when they could move further out of town, All the efforts spent complying with overbearing regulation that they created for themselves.

start making senior public servants personally liable for financial mismanagement and waste or public money.

Also, Institutional bureaucracies never make themselves smaller. They are self perpetuating systems. They thrive on regulations and breed public reliance - the infantilisation of the nation.

Wibbs · 15-12-2018 6:21pm

The main issue I have with property tax is that it is largely out of the individual's control. With other taxes I can choose to pay less, by for example earning less, or not buying something, or in the case of car tax going for a smaller engine, leccy motor etc. Having property tax linked to house value, values that are out of the homeowner's hands is unfair IMHO. It also places more burden on certain areas, so Dublin pays a helluva lot more than other areas in Ireland. The "well you can always move house/downsize" is a silly argument that has little practical use unless you're actively looking to buy and where you buy isn't based on where your job/extended family/schools for your kids etc are.

The "well other countries have the same tax" is not much of an argument either. So what? IMHO a fair chunk of these extra taxes are to keep the already squeezed middle so squeezed that they stay compliant and good little citizen consumers.

ted1 · 15-12-2018 6:22pm

As we move away from fossil fuels and towards electric vehicles. Prepare to see new taxes to make up for the loss in fuel taxes and motor taxes.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:23pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

start making senior public servants personally liable for financial mismanagement and waste or public money.

I could see that being a goldmine for the private sector legal profession. Someone could be bankrupted and left homeless if a multi million project went over budget. I think they would probably resort to law in that circumstance.

SEPT 23 1989 · 15-12-2018 6:24pm

People concerned about bloody tax on a Saturday evening

Have a drink and relax

You are a long time dead

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 6:25pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

People concerned about bloody tax on a Saturday evening

Have a drink and relax

You are a long time dead

Indeed. Home brewed of course. Tastes better knowing the taxman didn't gain a cent from it

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-12-2018 6:28pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Indeed. Home brewed of course. Tastes better.

Sorted.

seamus · 15-12-2018 6:31pm

No issue with property tax here. I'd rather local government had more money paid directly to them, which in turn gives them more power over their local area. Too much money flows down from the Dáil, it gives TDs too much influence at a local level.

USC was introduced by Fianna Fail as an emergency tax to fill the gaping hole in taxation left by their financial mismanagement.

Turns out that it can't just be abolished without getting the money from somewhere else...

Contrary to popular belief, we are not highly tax in comparison to other developed countries of our size. However, our tax base is badly weighted and the load needs to be spread more evenly.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:39pm

Wibbs wrote: »

The main issue I have with property tax is that it is largely out of the individual's control. With other taxes I can choose to pay less, by for example earning less, or not buying something, or in the case of car tax going for a smaller engine, leccy motor etc. Having property tax linked to house value, values that are out of the homeowner's hands is unfair IMHO. It also places more burden on certain areas, so Dublin pays a helluva lot more than other areas in Ireland. The "well you can always move house/downsize" is a silly argument that has little practical use unless you're actively looking to buy and where you buy isn't based on where your job/extended family/schools for your kids etc are.

The "well other countries have the same tax" is not much of an argument either. So what? IMHO a fair chunk of these extra taxes are to keep the already squeezed middle so squeezed that they stay compliant and good little citizen consumers.

The so what is that when Property Tax and Motor Tax was abolished before it led to super high income tax. Which prompted the massive tax marches, much larger than anything seen about water recently. And led to services charges, later to become bin charges. The irony was that the same people gave Fianna Fail the biggest ever majority a few years earlier. Swallowing the line that everything could be paid for from central taxation.

It is hardly on a whim that every country in the world has a system of property tax.

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 6:45pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The so what is that when Property Tax and Motor Tax was abolished before it led to super high income tax. Which prompted the massive tax marches, much larger than anything seen about water recently. And led to services charges, later to become bin charges. The irony was that the same people gave Fianna Fail the biggest ever majority a few years earlier. Swallowing the line that everything could be paid for from central taxation.

It is hardly on a whim that every country in the world has a system of property tax.

But we could get rid of both the USC and the property tax. Property tax euros are worth no more than regular ones, nor are the USC euros worth more. It shouldn't be terribly hard to make savings equal to the sum of both and with the Single Malt closing we could even lumber on with our wasteful ways and not bother with either of these taxes.

15-12-2018 6:47pm

Property tax should be abolished, CAT should be abolished (for close relations anyway), DIRT aboilshed, CGT significantly reduced, entry point to higher rate of tax significantly increase, higher rate of tax reduced and high rate of USC for higher earners got rid of.

But USC should be kept as it’s the only tax some people pay who are below the threashold for income tax and rather than expecting middle and higher earners to fund low earners low earners should be contributing themselves.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 6:49pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

But we could get rid of both the USC and the property tax. Property tax euros are worth no more than regular ones, nor are the USC euros worth more. It shouldn't be terribly hard to make savings equal to the sum of both and with the Single Malt closing we could even lumber on with our wasteful ways and not bother with either of these taxes.

The USC is just a combination of two levies which existed before for many years. If such a long standing income stream went, it would inevitably lead to increases in income tax and/or PRSI. Same answer in the end. The only advantage if it can be seen as such, is that USC is deducted from some of those who do not contribute to the income tax pot.

baldbear · 15-12-2018 6:50pm

We are a welfare state. The USC can't be removed at this stage especially with Brexit around the corner.

Madness & irresponsible to get rid of both.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 7:03pm

Nayeli Thousands Fax wrote: »

Property tax should be abolished, CAT should be abolished (for close relations anyway), DIRT aboilshed, CGT significantly reduced, entry point to higher rate of tax significantly increase, higher rate of tax reduced and high rate of USC for higher earners got rid of.

And the rest of the money should come from magic money tree. We need to tax unearned income more in fact.

But USC should be kept as it’s the only tax some people pay who are below the threashold for income tax and rather than expecting middle and higher earners to fund low earners low earners should be contributing themselves.

The usc should be abolished though.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 7:04pm

We also need to reduce all farmer subsidies.

Ubbquittious · 15-12-2018 7:08pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We also need to reduce all farmer subsidies.

Maybe if we get the fishing back and curb the flow of imported food into Ireland that we can grow here

Harry Palmr · 15-12-2018 7:20pm

The abolition of rates was a strategic disaster this state has never quite got over. It was done to centralise power at the expense of local authorities and it's why your council is now beholden to the Dept of Finance to get much done and why commercial rates are as high as they are.

Guy:Incognito · 15-12-2018 7:24pm

Definitely. Get that tax base nice and narrowed up again................

omega man · 15-12-2018 7:24pm

USC is actually quite a progressive tax. We need income tax reform, specifically tackling the ridiculously high marginal rates for middle income earners.

Townton · 15-12-2018 7:37pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The USC is just a combination of two levies which existed before for many years. If such a long standing income stream went, it would inevitably lead to increases in income tax and/or PRSI. Same answer in the end. The only advantage if it can be seen as such, is that USC is deducted from some of those who do not contribute to the income tax pot.

Dont need an increase if you trim down the size of government. Plenty of things to cut.

15-12-2018 8:00pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And the rest of the money should come from magic money tree. We need to tax unearned income more in fact.

The usc should be abolished though.

You couldn’t be more wrong on both counts. Lower earners need to contribute and your or the governments paws shiuld not get near other people’s savings, gifts/inheritances and should get a very small amount from investments etc

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We also need to reduce all farmer subsidies.

If people pay the real price for their food then that wouldn’t be an issue. Farmers subsidies are in reality subsidising your shopping simple as that. It’s laughable to hear people complain about subsidies while buying their 49 cent carrots or steak for 3 euro.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 8:08pm

Nayeli Thousands Fax wrote: »

You couldn’t be more wrong on both counts. Lower earners need to contribute and your or the governments paws shiuld not get near other people’s savings, gifts/inheritances and should get a very small amount from investments etc

People shouldn’t inherit anything. Work for your own wealth in an one generation.

If people pay the real price for their food then that wouldn’t be an issue. Farmers subsidies are in reality subsidising your shopping simple as that. It’s laughable to hear people complain about subsidies while buying their 49 cent carrots or steak for 3 euro.

The real price for food is the market price. If the Irish farmers can’t compete let’s them rot. If they can’t manage steak at the price people want, import it.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2018 8:13pm

Townton wrote: »

Dont need an increase if you trim down the size of government. Plenty of things to cut.

You would need to go after the big three, Welfare, Health and Education. Everything else is relative chickenfeed. Have you some expertise in the provision of any of these? Would you be prepared to see your family members take a hit?

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

road_high · 15-12-2018 10:05pm

When they hand out “Christmas bonuses” to the bone idle then it should come as no surprise that all these penal taxes shall have to stay- they need every cent they can get to keep up the welfare increases in addition to increased public spending on services (mainly staff).

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:26pm

Townton wrote: »

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services.

Taxes are below the EU average in Ireland.

They are not incredibly high.

Yes, the health waiting lists and waiting times are poor for the level of expenditure, yes.

But our overall taxes are not very high.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 15-12-2018 11:27pm

Geuze wrote: »

Taxes are below the EU average in Ireland.

They are not incredibly high.

Yes, the health waiting lists and waiting times are poor for the level of expenditure, yes.

But our overall taxes are not very high.

Personal taxes are high.

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:43pm

Townton wrote: »

Yes they should go. Main problem we have is we pay incredibly high taxes yet get crap services.

Tax as % of GDP = 23.3%, very low tax level

Now, GDP is not a good measure of Irish incomes, so we use GNI* instead = 181,182m

Tax as % of GNI* = 38%

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:44pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Personal taxes are high.

What is meant by "personal" taxes?

PRSI is very low, at 4%.

UK = 12%

Germany = 20%

Income tax is below average.

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:45pm

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9409920/2-28112018-AP-EN.pdf/54409e5e-6800-4019-b7c1-580797a67001

Tax as % of GDP.

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:46pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Personal taxes are high.

Hundreds of thousands of earners pay 0% income tax here.

My parents pay less than 10% on 49-50k income.

I pay maybe 26-30% on an above average salary.

Time to get rid of USC, Property tax

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