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Growing wealth

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    #152
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    If you put cash deep under ground it would not be found they still haven't found the generals gold he buried in the Dublin mountains back in the 80s.

    Which is the best strategy for growing wealth?

    a) Person A declares the €1 million, pays CAT on it, and invests the remainder in the markets so that it can grow.

    b) Person B hides the €1 million from Revenue by burying it in the ground, where its purchasing power is slowly eroded by inflation.

    Who do you think would have more money after, say, ten years?


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    #153
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Santino Chubby Munchies wrote: »
    b) Person B hides the €1 million from Revenue by burying it in the ground, where its purchasing power is slowly eroded by inflation.

    Or becomes simply obsolete? There's a story in the French press today about a guy finding 72900FFr hidden in the wall of his house. Current value: 0€ because the deadline for swapping FFr for EUR has passed.

    Ditto for anyone holding onto "old" US dollars, or "old" GBP - ten years is more than enough time for them to cease to be legal tender.


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    #154
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Digital/crypto is entirely dependent on both access to a reliable, stable, electricity supply and reliable, stable, digital infrastructure. ....
    Agree, crypto isn't fail safe, and the stronger the encryption gets the better and more creative the hackers become.

    Physical cash is becoming redundant, many cafes and retailers are becoming cashless only (or pushing cashless ques for faster transactions).

    Only this weekend many of the north's paper sterling notes became void at retailers. Can only be exchanged at the actual issuing banks (for new plastic notes). Which is of no use whatsoever on a Sunday's border shopping trip.

    It may well always exist, but not always accepted. Also finding a working fee-free ATM these days is also becoming a tricky affair.

    Would it be fair to say that in this coming cashless (almost Chinese social-credit) system, that physical storage of wealth (not necessarily bullion), for use as bartering, may become more popular.

    The only question is the vehicle of storage, for a short while (post-brexit) it might be teabags, biscuits or scotch whisky.


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    #155
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Mabel White Sander wrote: »
    Would it be fair to say that in this coming cashless (almost Chinese social-credit) system, that physical storage of wealth (not necessarily bullion), for use as bartering, may become more popular.

    The only question is the vehicle of storage, for a short while (post-brexit) it might be teabags, biscuits or scotch whisky.

    It all depends on whether things (globally) carry on as they have done for the last 100 years, or whether something (man-made or "natural") happens to aggressively disrupt the status quo.

    If everything stays the same, then the convenience of direct electronic payment of salaries into an online bank account, and contactless payment for "stuff" from that balance, will continue to be a great selling point. In parallel, shuffling electronic money from one investment vehicle to another will be relatively easy. So too will be getting a chunk of someone else's electronically paid wages transferred electronically to your bank account so that they can live in a property that you bought for an arbritary sum based on what such a someone would be likely to pay every month, regardless of the intrinsic value of the building. And as long as everything stays the same, your Sage or MSMoney quarterly net worth report will look really healthy.

    But the day the SEPA system breaks down; the day your bank goes bust because of some unwise investment in Brazilian rain forest ranching; the day Hurricane Fiachra rezones most of Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Dublin; the day some idiot superpower has a hissy fit over the antics of wanabee superpower and pitches the world's supply-lines into chaos; on that day, the electrons in those electronic ledgers won't feed you for long. And good luck trying to get any rent out of the squatters in that apartment you own in Dublin when you're stranded on a tax haven in the Carribean.

    Being able to get your hands on hard cash in the event of such a breakdown would be essential. The "cost" of inflation on a buried stash could be considered a sort of insurance premium. But a couple of k, not a million!


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    #156
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Travellers receive special treatment, most people will find it hard going to avoid declaring a million euro windfall


    I'm going to declare my self a Traveller then so.


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    #157
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Santino Chubby Munchies wrote: »
    Which is the best strategy for growing wealth?

    a) Person A declares the €1 million, pays CAT on it, and invests the remainder in the markets so that it can grow.

    b) Person B hides the €1 million from Revenue by burying it in the ground, where its purchasing power is slowly eroded by inflation.

    Who do you think would have more money after, say, ten years?


    Over that time I would slowly spend the money on Gold and other things.


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    #158
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Being able to get your hands on hard cash in the event of such a breakdown would be essential. The "cost" of inflation on a buried stash could be considered a sort of insurance premium. But a couple of k, not a million!
    Depending on (precise) level of any such a SHTF sceanrio you mentioned (again all are very highly unlikely), it might stand that the actual 'usefulness' of any asset or item of wealth storage will become more important.

    Important for both practical use, and thus an item of further barter.

    So assuming a Cat5-Hurriance touches down at Cork in 2025 (close to impossible). Then a bucket, torch, wellies, poncho an pallet of soup will win (in the short/medium term) against a wad stuffed pierre cardin leather wallet, and fancy Rolex. After all, the shops would be boarded up anyway.

    A recent report (UKF) shows 6,240 ATMs were removed in 2018, and cash trans are down 16% in the uk for 2018., from 2017.


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    #159
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Mabel White Sander wrote: »
    Depending on (precise) level of any such a SHTF sceanrio you mentioned (again all are very highly unlikely), it might stand that the actual 'usefulness' of any asset or item of wealth storage will become more important.

    Important for both practical use, and thus an item of further barter.

    So assuming a Cat5-Hurriance touches down at Cork in 2025 (close to impossible). Then a bucket, torch, wellies, poncho an pallet of soup will win (in the short/medium term) against a wad stuffed pierre cardin leather wallet, and fancy Rolex. After all, the shops would be boarded up anyway.

    A recent report (UKF) shows 6,240 ATMs were removed in 2018, and cash trans are down 16% in the uk for 2018., from 2017.

    I don't think we're as far away from these SHTF scenarios as you might imagine. Look at the Thomas Cook collapse - Brexit tips a badly run British company over the edge, pushing a load of Spanish hotels into bankruptcy and putting their workers are out of a job, so they'll be defaulting on their mortgages in a country that's still struggling to get back on its feet after hurricane caused by the Lehman Bros "butterfly".

    But yes, while regular cash would be fine for a short-term crisis; if that turned into a major paradigm shift, then something else more useful will take its place. I read this article recently about the alternative economy in US prisons.

    It's not much different to the parallel economy I saw in action in Kenya earlier this year. My BiL has land there; he pays his workers in vegetables; incidentally, this was also an option for me paying my children's school dinner bill here in France, and I know some professionals accept payment in quarters of venison or wild boar.

    But there'll always be a need for something of storable value to cover the gap between what you need to buy and what I've got to sell.


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    #160
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    Santino Chubby Munchies wrote: »
    Which is the best strategy for growing wealth?

    a) Person A declares the €1 million, pays CAT on it, and invests the remainder in the markets so that it can grow.

    b) Person B hides the €1 million from Revenue by burying it in the ground, where its purchasing power is slowly eroded by inflation.

    Who do you think would have more money after, say, ten years?


    Over that time I would slowly spend the money on Gold and other things.

    I've some beans if you're interested?

    Beans are other things.


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    #161
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I've some beans if you're interested?

    Beans are other things.




    Gold keeps its value over time.

    I think we should look to the travellers as experts on how to be "tax efficient".


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    #162
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,804 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I love the gold in case civilization collapses argument. It's happened so many times in my lifetime, my fathers lifetime and his fathers lifetime, it's obviously a necessary precaution.


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    #163
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I've some beans if you're interested?

    Beans are other things.




    Gold keeps its value over time.

    I think we should look to the travellers as experts on how to be "tax efficient".

    Gold is a terrible investment


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    #164
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    cnocbui wrote: »
    I love the gold in case civilization collapses argument. It's happened so many times in my lifetime, my fathers lifetime and his fathers lifetime, it's obviously a necessary precaution.




    Given the low birth rates in the west it will collapse over the next few decades.


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    #165
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    cnocbui wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How will the recipient get to spend their "sizeable amount"?

    Sell some, from time to time.
    And get the money transferred from the exchange into your bank account?


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    #166
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,804 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    And get the money transferred from the exchange into your bank account?

    Yes. A few K a year won't be noticed. If we are talking a serious amount, you emigrate, even if temporarily, long enough to be tax resident and then you can convert the lot to cash. You could move back after your extended holiday, if you are mad.

    Personally I just plan to emigrate to somewhere with no inheritance tax and no CGT. I absolutely loath Inheritance tax; It's wicked.


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    #167
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    cnocbui wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    And get the money transferred from the exchange into your bank account?

    Yes. A few K a year won't be noticed. If we are talking a serious amount, you emigrate, even if temporarily, long enough to be tax resident and then you can convert the lot to cash. You could move back after your extended holiday, if you are mad.

    Personally I just plan to emigrate to somewhere with no inheritance tax and no CGT. I absolutely loath Inheritance tax; It's wicked.

    If a few k won't be noticed now, do you think it will be noticed by the tools available to Revenue in 2 years time? Or in 5 years time? I wouldn't like to wager my financial future on a gamble like that.


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    #168
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,804 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    If a few k won't be noticed now, do you think it will be noticed by the tools available to Revenue in 2 years time? Or in 5 years time? I wouldn't like to wager my financial future on a gamble like that.

    Sounds interesting. How do these tools work?


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    #169
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Sounds interesting. How do these tools work?
    Doesn't really matter how they work now. What really matters is how they work in say, 2 years time, or 5 years time - which is pure speculation.



    Loads of AirBNB landlords were convinced they could hide their money from the taxpayer. So Revenue acted. Just like they can act against the crypto exchanges, or the banks to get details of transfers from crypto exchanges or whatever.


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    #170
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    For every one person Revenue catch there is 100 they don't catch.
    Really? How exactly did you work that out? Now I'm not talking about a lad who worked a few weekend nixers. I'm talking about the kind of serious tax fraud that you're recommending - the six-figure sum tax frauds. How did you work out Revenue's success rate?


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    I know a load of travellers driving 181 and 191 vehicles and who have never worked and don't hide their wealth but the Revenue don't seem interested in going after them.
    They all don't have houses. Or bank accounts. Or utility bills. Is that the kind of model you're proposing for your tax fraud approach?

    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    If you put cash deep under ground it would not be found they still haven't found the generals gold he buried in the Dublin mountains back in the 80s.
    Are you sure they haven't found it? How would you know?


    Either way, you're not doing a great job at 'selling' this approach, with an example of the man who apparently put his money beyond reach of himself and his family.

    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    If they did that I would just give them the small amounts of cash I had in the house and tell them I've no more.
    These guys are professionals. They're a lot better at stealing money than you are at hiding money, as they do it all the time. They've taking your missus and/or your daughter away to a different location, and one of them was looking at the ladies in a particularly unsavoury way. How brave are you feeling now?

    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    You seem to think we have a moral obligation to pay extra tax when the government are biggest criminals in state.


    If O'Brien and Bono can get away with not paying tax I see no reason why the little man should also try and be as "tax efficient" as possible.
    Do your moral obligations extend to not using any of the schools, hospitals, roads, parks, beaches that are paid for by other tax payers?


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    #171
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Really? How exactly did you work that out? Now I'm not talking about a lad who worked a few weekend nixers. I'm talking about the kind of serious tax fraud that you're recommending - the six-figure sum tax frauds. How did you work out Revenue's success rate?




    They all don't have houses. Or bank accounts. Or utility bills. Is that the kind of model you're proposing for your tax fraud approach?

    Are you sure they haven't found it? How would you know?

    Either way, you're not doing a great job at 'selling' this approach, with an example of the man who apparently put his money beyond reach of himself and his family.



    These guys are professionals. They're a lot better at stealing money than you are at hiding money, as they do it all the time. They've taking your missus and/or your daughter away to a different location, and one of them was looking at the ladies in a particularly unsavoury way. How brave are you feeling now?



    Do your moral obligations extend to not using any of the schools, hospitals, roads, parks, beaches that are paid for by other tax payers?




    I'm not proposing any fraud I'm talking about not paying any more tax on money that was legally earned.

    People who have worked all their lives should be able to pass on money to their family without their family facing a massive tax bill.

    Its the double taxation I have problem with.

    To call it "fraud" is laughable when all I would be trying to do is keep my own money in the family which has already has tax paid on it.

    Just look at Bob Geldof hes another person who is "tax efficient" who will be able pass on his properties with little or no tax paid.

    But its not "fraud" when the likes of Geldof or Bono does it.

    One law for the rich another for the poor!


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/how-debt-crusader-geldof-could-save-16m-in-death-tax-6597904.html


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    #172
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    I'm not proposing any fraud I'm talking about not paying any more tax on money that was legally earned.

    People who have worked all their lives should be able to pass on money to their family without their family facing a massive tax bill.

    Its the double taxation I have problem with.

    To call it "fraud" is laughable when all I would be trying to do is keep my own money in the family which has already has tax paid on it.

    Just look at Bob Geldof hes another person who is "tax efficient" who will be able pass on his properties with little or no tax paid.

    But its not "fraud" when the likes of Geldof or Bono does it.

    One law for the rich another for the poor!


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/how-debt-crusader-geldof-could-save-16m-in-death-tax-6597904.html

    Do you have a problem with double taxation every time you spend taxed income in a shop and pay VAT?


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    #173
    Uncle Charlie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Do you have a problem with double taxation every time you spend taxed income in a shop and pay VAT?


    I should have said triple taxation.


    Also the difference with going into a shop is that you don't have to spend the money.


    If a family member leaves me 500k I would have to pay massive tax on it because I'm not Bono or Geldof.


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    #174
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Uncle Charlie wrote: »
    I should have said triple taxation.


    Also the difference with going into a shop is that you don't have to spend the money.


    If a family member leaves me 500k I would have to pay massive tax on it because I'm not Bono or Geldof.

    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you? There is no 'triple taxation'. It's no different to VAT or motor tax in principle.

    With no inheritance tax, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It is a modest redistribution measure.

    For a typical family, splitting a €500k house among 2 or 3 kids, there is no tax due. If one child is inheriting the family home they have lived in, no tax is due.

    For higher value inheritances, modest taxes apply, maybe something like 60k in your example, with lots of options to minimise the impact through tax efficient insurance.

    We need more wealth taxes to avoid increasing income taxes.

    But I'm still unclear about what exactly you're recommending for the OPs scenario?


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    #175
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,804 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you? There is no 'triple taxation'. It's no different to VAT or motor tax in principle.

    With no inheritance tax, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It is a modest redistribution measure.

    For a typical family, splitting a €500k house among 2 or 3 kids, there is no tax due. If one child is inheriting the family home they have lived in, no tax is due.

    For higher value inheritances, modest taxes apply, maybe something like 60k in your example, with lots of options to minimise the impact through tax efficient insurance.

    We need more wealth taxes to avoid increasing income taxes.

    But I'm still unclear about what exactly you're recommending for the OPs scenario?

    Many in this country seem to share your socialist ideals. Marx would be proud. Can't wait to emigrate. What the country needs is for either a reduction in pay levels for civil servants and a reduction in their numbers - preferably both - or an increase in the tax take from corporations.

    How people can hold a view that people should be wealth taxed in Ireland in order to increase the income of US individuals who already have extreme wealth, is beyond me.


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    #176
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Many in this country seem to share your socialist ideals. Marx would be proud. Can't wait to emigrate. What the country needs is for either a reduction in pay levels for civil servants and a reduction in their numbers - preferably both - or an increase in the tax take from corporations.

    How people can hold a view that people should be wealth taxed in Ireland in order to increase the income of US individuals who already have extreme wealth, is beyond me.
    Just is just incoherent garbage and doesn't relate in any way to the question what you you do if you inherited half a million euro.


    The answer to that question is to buy cheap houses, do them up and rent them out. If you own three rental houses it is great less than that is worthless


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    #177
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,804 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm incoherent? :rolleyes:


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    #178
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    With a million and with the goal of establishing a rock solid portfolio that will beat inflation quite soundly and get dividends paid out that would be greater each year then these are the companies I would choose. 

    ExxonMobil, Chevron, Clorox, Colgate-Palmolive
    McDonalds, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Altria, Visa, AT&T, Hershey, Procter & Gamble, Wal-Mart, Diageo, JP Morgan, Walgreen, Royal Dutch Shell, Abbott Labs, Abbvie, Nestle, Boeing, Berkshire Hathaway, Microsoft, Wells Fargo, United Technologies, McCormick, Kellogg, General Mills, Starbucks, Disney and Nike.

    I'd be looking at the average 10 year dividend yield of these 33 companies (except Berkshire as no dividend) and buy a few hundred shares of the company whenever it traded at that level. I'd keep doing that, while reinvesting all dividends, until the overall dividend income gave me sufficient income I could happily live off without the need to work (I.e. the J&J dividends would pay for the annual holiday, the Coke dividends would be paying your car insurance etc etc).

    I would never sell and would welcome market corrections as it would actually be the market going on sale and I could pick up quality, durable companies at bargain prices. I would think having a portfolio stuffed with these companies would be a no brainer. It would be keeping it as simple as possible. The power of compounding ensures that investing a million today will ultimately dish out a million in dividends over the course of the next few decades through a combo of annually increasing payouts with reinvesting those same payouts. Your million making money (the dividend) which makes more money (using it to buy more stock) which makes more money (the purchased stock itself throwing off dividends).


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    #179
    Bob Harris
    Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    An post will give you 1.5%AER or 16% over 10 years guaranteed and tax free.
    120K is the maximum investment. Put 120k in your name and 120k in for the missus and you've earned nearly 40k for nothing. Can be withdrawn with 7 days notice.


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    #180
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    cnocbui wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you? There is no 'triple taxation'. It's no different to VAT or motor tax in principle.

    With no inheritance tax, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It is a modest redistribution measure.

    For a typical family, splitting a €500k house among 2 or 3 kids, there is no tax due. If one child is inheriting the family home they have lived in, no tax is due.

    For higher value inheritances, modest taxes apply, maybe something like 60k in your example, with lots of options to minimise the impact through tax efficient insurance.

    We need more wealth taxes to avoid increasing income taxes.

    But I'm still unclear about what exactly you're recommending for the OPs scenario?

    Many in this country seem to share your socialist ideals. Marx would be proud. Can't wait to emigrate.
    You don't have to go quite as far left as Marx to find people who see the sense of reasonable inheritance tax. Here's a UK Green MEP

    [url]

    Where are you planning on emigrating to btw?


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    #181
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Bob Harris wrote: »
    An post will give you 1.5%AER or 16% over 10 years guaranteed and tax free.
    120K is the maximum investment. Put 120k in your name and 120k in for the missus and you've earned nearly 40k for nothing. Can be withdrawn with 7 days notice.
    How much will you lose to inflation over the ten years?


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