Are we sending too many students to third level?

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:05pm #1

We currently send more students to third level than any other country. The Irish Times asks is this a good thing. I think that ticking boxes just to get students into third level at record rates is a bad thing and more focus is needed in getting the right students to third level. It costs the country a lot to send students to universities and I think interviews could be a good way to decide if a student is right for a course. I also think that the Irish Times makes a good point of highlighting the artificial inequality that arises in the Irish education system. We need to switch to recognise social barriers to education.

The fact that we send more students to third level than any other country in the EU is often seen as a badge of honour.

The proportion of school-leavers going on to higher education ballooned from about 10 per cent in the 1960s to well over 60 per cent nowadays.

Ireland now has the highest proportion of young people with third-level qualifications across the EU.

But a new study released by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) on the volume of of students failing to progress beyond their first year of college highlights a flipside to this achievement : are we now sending too many to higher education?

Overall, some 5,800 students – or 14 per cent of all new entrants to third level – did not move on to their second year of their course.

These are encouraging figures when set against higher education systems across Europe.

Despite a decade of falling investment by the State in the sector – with reduced staff-to-student ratios and depleted student support services – third level colleges have managed to reduce non-progression rates overall in recent years.

However, dig a little deeper and there are alarming numbers of students who have scored lower Leaving Cert points and are falling through the cracks in the system.

Glaring inequities
These latest non-progression figures also highlight another stark side to the education system: how glaring inequities in society extend into academic performance.

Students from disadvantaged schools are almost twice as likely to fail to make it past their first year in college compared to those from fee-paying schools.

For all our talk of promoting access and equality, it is clear that students from more affluent backgrounds have a significant advantage over those from less-well-off homes.

There is also evidence of a class divide across many of our universities and institutes of technology. Almost a quarter of students from Trinity College Dublin and UCD are from fee-paying schools. The comparable figures for Athlone IT, Galway-Mayo IT and IT Tralee, for example, are below 1 per cent.

Geography is, of course, a factor given that most fee-paying schools are in south Dublin.

However, at IT Blanchardstown and IT Tallaght, between 4 and 8 per cent of students are from fee-paying schools.

Education, we know, has a unique capacity to break down cycles of disadvantage. If anything, our system seems to be replicating privilege.

The Government has spoken often about its aim of building a fair and compassionate society. The rhetoric of equality, however, can flow freely off the tongue.

While there are various strategies to improve the representation of working-class young people in higher education, they are modest by any measure. Much more ambition will be needed to tackle this class divide, backed up by proper funding and political will.

Whispered · 24-05-2018 8:09pm

I think that an assumption that third level is a requirement to be a useful member of society is a bad thing. I think kids should be encouraged to explore their interests and find their skills from early on. Build confidence and interest for kids, for some that'll come from academic pursuits, other physical or social. Too much emphasis on academia for the wrong pupil is not a good thing, of course it's important, but it's not the right fit for everyone.

I don't know if we send too many to third level, but I would like to see more of an emphasis than we currently have, on other options.

Edit: although, that's just my experience which is obviously shaped by my social circle and experiences so...... *shrugs*

Owryan · 24-05-2018 8:11pm

I think there is too much pressure on young people to go to college and enter a profession, esp if they are still trying to find out what they want to do.

I'm 43 and a mature student, just finished my honours year, it was obvious from 1st year that many "kids" on the course had no idea what they wanted to do, what the course was about and were only there's because it was expected of them.

TheValeyard · 24-05-2018 8:12pm

I dont see it as a problem, but rather another opportunity for people to broaden their horizons and experience new things. Gain new understandings, perspective, knowledge and social circles. All this benefits society.

Gravelly · 24-05-2018 8:17pm

Definitely. If we improved our apprenticeship system (and I believe there are some positive moves in that direction) to be more like, say, the German model, we would have far more 20-somethings who are out earning a living and contributing to society and the economy, as well as having less stress, worry, and debt themselves. It would also give people who don't get enough points for certain courses (esp. in the engineering field) the chance to work up to qualified engineer level through the apprenticeship route.
I'm told by our HR head that around 40% of the graduate CV's we get sent for job opportunities have degrees that are essentially useless.

24-05-2018 8:20pm

I think we are to an extent, but I wouldn't change it.

Atoms for Peace · 24-05-2018 8:21pm

There's seems to be an increasing amount of either irrelevant or oversold courses being offered by the IT's.
Rather than stick to core STEM subjects, which was their raison d'etre, they're chasing numbers.

wexie · 24-05-2018 8:21pm

No it's all grand...

Till we start running out of plumbers, sparkies, chippies, mechanics and all those that is.

Then it won't be so grand anymore

Also I'd love to know what the hell we're going to do with all these gender studies graduates

One eyed Jack · 24-05-2018 8:22pm

Without the more affluent parents being able to afford to give their children a third level education, the same institutions wouldn't be able to afford to give third level education to young people from backgrounds whose parents can't afford third level education.

Some people have more opportunities than others, and some people can afford a better quality education than others, and the idea of appealing to the lowest common denominator as the standard by which everyone should be treated is never likely to lead to social progress, it actually stunts social mobility as it gives people nothing to aspire to.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:24pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

There's seems to be an increasing amount of either irrelevant or oversold courses being offered by the IT's.
Rather than stick to core STEM subjects, which was their raison d'etre, they're chasing numbers.

Well there's actually a lot of STEM students now. A lot of them just enrolling because there's jobs in the area rather than a general interest in the subject. As a result science has one of the highest drop out rates. You can't just enroll for the job factor.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:26pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Without the more affluent parents being able to afford to give their children a third level education, the same institutions wouldn't be able to afford to give third level education to young people from backgrounds whose parents can't afford third level education.

Some people have more opportunities than others, and some people can afford a better quality education than others, and the idea of appealing to the lowest common denominator as the standard by which everyone should be treated is never likely to lead to social progress, it actually stunts social mobility as it gives people nothing to aspire to.

Jack third level fees are paid for by the state no matter how well off your parents are. Registration fees aren't covered but they're not large.

y0ssar1an22 · 24-05-2018 8:26pm

IMO colleges invent these third level degrees with the promise of a great job. in reality they're just after the ~13k they charge you. unfortunately most people have been fooled and think they need one. maybe its the employers who have been fooled.

and now i realise i'm talking about masters degrees. but the point still stands

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:29pm

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

IMO colleges invent these third level degrees with the promise of a great job. in reality they're just after the ~13k they charge you. unfortunately most people have been fooled and think they need one. maybe its the employers who have been fooled.

and now i realise i'm talking about masters degrees. but the point still stands

A lot of masters degrees are just a money making scheme. Unfortunately masters degrees are used to filter out students for further education and employment.

Odhinn · 24-05-2018 8:33pm

Gravelly wrote: »

Definitely. If we improved our apprenticeship system (and I believe there are some positive moves in that direction) to be more like, say, the German model, we would have far more 20-somethings who are out earning a living and contributing to society and the economy, as well as having less stress, worry, and debt themselves. It would also give people who don't get enough points for certain courses (esp. in the engineering field) the chance to work up to qualified engineer level through the apprenticeship route.
I'm told by our HR head that around 40% of the graduate CV's we get sent for job opportunities have degrees that are essentially useless.

^
^
^
The above. It's all well and good having third level there for those who need and want it, but more often than not its a status symbol, driven by parents.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:35pm

Odhinn wrote: »

^
^
^
The above. It's all well and good having third level there for those who need and want it, but more often than not its a status symbol, driven by parents.

This exactly. Third level isn't for everyone but a lot of schools fail to mention this.

riffmongous · 24-05-2018 8:36pm

How does that first year non- progression rate compare to other countries?

CelticRambler · 24-05-2018 8:44pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Some people have more opportunities than others, and some people can afford a better quality education than others, and the idea of appealing to the lowest common denominator as the standard by which everyone should be treated is never likely to lead to social progress, it actually stunts social mobility as it gives people nothing to aspire to.

This "lowest common denominator" - or "equal opportunity for everyone" as it's promoted in France - is currently causing huge problems here. If you get a pass in your Baccalauréat, you're guaranteed a place in university, so guess what? Thousands of French teens go to university with no idea of what they want to do.

There's a 60% drop-out rate amongst first-years and the universities themselves are pretty dire. We've just finished a month of faculty occupations by disgruntled students, protesting about a proposal to bring in a certain amount of selection/competition for places. In typical French fashion, the protesting students decided the best way to make their point was to destroy their universities (estimates range from about 10-500 million €) including one that had just undergone a comprehensive refurbishment.

As it happened, I was hanging out with a bunch of French university graduates over the same period, and discussing the topic it was clear that Irish students have access to a gold-plated "added value" third-level experience, which most of them probably don't appreciate, but the benefit is obvious when you meet Irish graduates any where else in Europe.

So for all the supposed faults in the Leaving Cert and the CAO system, Ireland still deserves it's reputation as the Island of Saints and Scholars.

suicide_circus · 24-05-2018 8:48pm

It's always amazing the amount of people who come out of college practically illiterate.

Roger Hassenforder · 24-05-2018 8:48pm

"third level colleges have managed to reduce non-progression rates overall in recent years."

In other words they dumbed it down?

wexie · 24-05-2018 8:51pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"third level colleges have managed to reduce non-progression rates overall in recent years."

In other words they dumbed it down?

that's kinda how I interpreted it.

And that's not really the way forward I'd have thought

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 8:51pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"third level colleges have managed to reduce non-progression rates overall in recent years."

In other words they dumbed it down?

We can't assume that but it is the most likely scenario. The other possibility being that students are actually doing courses they're interested in.

Apocalypticism · 24-05-2018 8:54pm

interviews for college? so what the **** are leaving cert points for you fool?
Why would student be dependent on some fkrs and if they have a bad day they may destroy someones life.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 9:00pm

Apocalypticism wrote: »

interviews for college? so what the **** are leaving cert points for you fool?
Why would student be dependent on some fkrs and if they have a bad day they may destroy someones life.

You don't strike me as someone who would do well in interviews to be honest.

Bitches Be Trypsin · 24-05-2018 9:01pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jack third level fees are paid for by the state no matter how well off your parents are. Registration fees aren't covered but they're not large.

3K x 4 years is 12K, how is that not large? That's without factoring in rent, textbooks etc

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 9:38pm

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote: »

3K x 4 years is 12K, how is that not large? That's without factoring in rent, textbooks etc

12K for a four year science degree Vs a multiple of thst in the UK? No, it's not that large. Everyone pays rent. A lot do it without parental support.

Bitches Be Trypsin · 24-05-2018 9:40pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

12K for a four year science degree Vs a multiple of thst in the UK? No, it's not that large. Everyone pays rent. A lot do it without parental support.

I said nothing about parental support?

hatrickpatrick · 24-05-2018 9:55pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

12K for a four year science degree Vs a multiple of thst in the UK? No, it's not that large. Everyone pays rent. A lot do it without parental support.

Moronic argument tbh, the UK is the highest by a factor of four - the second highest being ourselves.

http://www.thejournal.ie/college-fees-ireland-3675177-Nov2017/

Owryan · 24-05-2018 10:37pm

sugarman wrote: »

I think the blame mostly lies with modern employers in Ireland, making degrees a requirement for jobs that didnt need them in the past ...and still dont need them.

^this. I was thinking of applying for a relief position with a company that provides supervised parent/child access. They wanted applicants to have at least a masters!!!! Last year a level 7 was enough.

Similarly some of the home care companies are looking for degrees when fetac level 5-6 used to be enough. There is definitely an element of inflation regarding qualifications.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 10:39pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Moronic argument tbh, the UK is the highest by a factor of four - the second highest being ourselves.

http://www.thejournal.ie/college-fees-ireland-3675177-Nov2017/

And if you can't afford you don't pay. Simple as.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2018 10:42pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

This "lowest common denominator" - or "equal opportunity for everyone" as it's promoted in France - is currently causing huge problems here. If you get a pass in your Baccalauréat, you're guaranteed a place in university, so guess what? Thousands of French teens go to university with no idea of what they want to do.

There's a 60% drop-out rate amongst first-years and the universities themselves are pretty dire. We've just finished a month of faculty occupations by disgruntled students, protesting about a proposal to bring in a certain amount of selection/competition for places. In typical French fashion, the protesting students decided the best way to make their point was to destroy their universities (estimates range from about 10-500 million €) including one that had just undergone a comprehensive refurbishment.

As it happened, I was hanging out with a bunch of French university graduates over the same period, and discussing the topic it was clear that Irish students have access to a gold-plated "added value" third-level experience, which most of them probably don't appreciate, but the benefit is obvious when you meet Irish graduates any where else in Europe.

So for all the supposed faults in the Leaving Cert and the CAO system, Ireland still deserves it's reputation as the Island of Saints and Scholars.

Of course selection is key, but selection by leaving cert points alone doesn't give an accurate reflection of suitability for a course IMHO.

hatrickpatrick · 24-05-2018 10:46pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

And if you can't afford you don't pay. Simple as.

The point I'm making is, why does Ireland always have to be so God damn expensive for everything compared with the rest of Europe? It's infuriating.

Hitman3000 · 24-05-2018 10:51pm

steddyeddy wrote:

We currently send more students to third level than any other country. The

Did you go yourself?

endacl · 24-05-2018 10:57pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

I teach in the PLC sector, which has been decimated in recent years. Our own college offers three fulltime courses. 10 years ago, each of these would have run two classes in each course, with well over 100 students attending and (most) successfully completing each year. This year, we were down to a total of less than 30.

Students are being offered third level places, for which they are patently not equipped to complete. And they do not complete them. On the other hand, colleges (and Institutes of Technology in particular) receive academic fees, subvention, and registration fees for each student registered. No questions are being asked as to why up to 70% will not complete, or will fail, the first year of courses that they are simply not able for.

There is a cohort of young person being cynically and blatantly sold a pup by third level education. Not everybody is a suitable candidate for a Level 6/7 course. More sadly, many of those who are not yet suitable, could be, given a year post-secondary to mature a little and develop their skills.

This will come back to bite us...

endacl · 24-05-2018 10:57pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

I teach in the PLC sector, which has been decimated in recent years. Our own college offers three fulltime courses. 10 years ago, each of these would have run two classes in each course, with well over 100 students attending and (most) successfully completing each year. This year, we were down to a total of less than 30.

Students are being offered third level places which they are patently not equipped to complete. And they do not complete them. On the other hand, colleges (and Institutes of Technology in particular) receive academic fees, subvention, and registration fees for each student registered. No questions are being asked as to why up to 70% will not complete, or will fail, the first year of courses that they are simply not able for.

There is a cohort of young person being cynically and blatantly sold a pup by third level education. Not everybody is a suitable candidate for a Level 6/7 course. More sadly, many of those who are not yet suitable, could be, given a year post-secondary to mature a little and develop their skills.

This will come back to bite us...

Jimmy Dags · 24-05-2018 11:03pm

No one to lay a few blocks in a few years or few gauges of mortar on a wall. They will be too busy sitting at an office working and posting 50 plus posts a day giving out about trivial things.

Bitches Be Trypsin · 24-05-2018 11:52pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

And if you can't afford you don't pay. Simple as.

Are you referring to SUSI?

steddyeddy · 25-05-2018 12:14am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Did you go yourself?

Yes I did. The first in my family to go too. I do think we have too many students at third level but it's not students from poorer backgrounds that are the most numerous. I'm not looking to deny anyone a chance.

Hitman3000 · 25-05-2018 1:13am

steddyeddy wrote:

Yes I did. The first in my family to go too. I do think we have too many students at third level but it's not students from poorer backgrounds that are the most numerous. I'm not looking to deny anyone a chance.

So would you like to impose a cap?

steddyeddy · 25-05-2018 1:23am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So would you like to impose a cap?

No as I said I would interview students prior to taking up a degree place.

Hitman3000 · 25-05-2018 1:27am

steddyeddy wrote:

No as I said I would interview students prior to taking up a degree place.

Some people are terrible in an interview setting. Of course the up side is you would create an interview preparation industry with only those able to pay gaining an advantage. Hardly fair.

25-05-2018 1:28am

Education has been watered down.....too thick for mech eng....do a degree in manufacturing technology or some other horse ****.

Add that & similar onto to largely useless BAs that universities have always offered and a huge proportion of 3rd level courses are arsebiscuits.

Clerical officers with degrees in history etc etc.

Load of ole w@nk.

To be fair sh1t qualifications generally lead to sh1t pay so that's something I suppose.... no ones being fooled really....except those thinking they're qualified in anything meaningful.

Sam Quentin · 25-05-2018 1:44am

Absolutely.
Some kids are academically minded and of course need to be 'nurtured' and they then progress well in third level,, which is great.. And some kids are mechanically or 'labour' minded and would do so much better put straight into apprenticeships and out into trade which is great also..
Unfortunately some parents and students alike feel it's 'good and proper' to continue on into 3rd level and for no solid reason really!?

jamesbere · 25-05-2018 1:47am

Encouraging education is good but sending so many young people to college means more demand for work which is not a certainty.

I live on college Rd in Cork and the increase in students is definitely a way more evident to me this year then last. Also there's one student accommodation nearly completed on western rd, add to that another in development and two more of which planning is approved. So UCC is definitely going to get bigger increase in numbers. Its going to be really busy out there, which is good in one way but it has its negatives especially on an anti social behavior side.

Ficheall · 25-05-2018 1:49am

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

jamesbere · 25-05-2018 1:53am

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

If universities are doing that than it makes sense, I've met people who have degrees and I've no idea how on earth they even passed an exam. Totally red useless.

Sam Quentin · 25-05-2018 1:59am

jamesbere wrote: »

Encouraging education is good but sending so many young people to college means more demand for work which is not a certainty.

I live on college Rd in Cork and the increase in students is definitely a way more evident to me this year then last. Also there's one student accommodation nearly completed on western rd, add to that another in development and two more of which planning is approved. So UCC is definitely going to get bigger increase in numbers. Its going to be really busy out there, which is good in one way but it has its negatives especially on an anti social behavior side.

Absolutely,. it's the same in Dundalk, whole housing estates are basically now for students, they're 'no go areas' and I don't mean dangerous or anything like that.. But they just are not suited anymore for families, actually young families who originally lived in these estates have moved on or really would love to move on, late night parties, constant traffic, bad parking, walking through gardens,.. all that comes with young dumb and away from Mum behaviour!?

Roger Hassenforder · 25-05-2018 8:17pm

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis ... Of course, that's bad for business...

nail on the head there squire.
colleges and universities are no longer places of higher education, they're commercial entities.

no problem sending too many/all kids to college if that's what they want.
But we've too many "bull****" courses on offer, hoovering up public money with lecturers in sinecures, with little return on investment. Fair enough someone is passionate about a subject, but churning out 100s of kids every year with a qualification there is little to no employment market is ridiculous.

Graces7 · 26-05-2018 1:03pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's always amazing the amount of people who come out of college practically illiterate.

Not half as illiterate as some of their fathers or uncles. I have had eg rural landlords who literally could barely write their names.

Graces7 · 26-05-2018 1:04pm

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

This is all part of the "dilution" of education that is damaging. It means less and less as time goes on.

irishrebe · 26-05-2018 1:25pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's always amazing the amount of people who come out of college practically illiterate.

Wow. I hope that was supposed to be ironic, but I don't think it was.

CrabRevolution · 26-05-2018 2:31pm

It's a bit of a disincentive to work hard at your LC if you could just have months/years of your hard work undone by a once off interview.

Are we sending too many students to third level?

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