Are we sending too many students to third level?

Hitman3000

steddyeddy wrote:

We currently send more students to third level than any other country. The

Did you go yourself?

endacl

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

I teach in the PLC sector, which has been decimated in recent years. Our own college offers three fulltime courses. 10 years ago, each of these would have run two classes in each course, with well over 100 students attending and (most) successfully completing each year. This year, we were down to a total of less than 30.

Students are being offered third level places, for which they are patently not equipped to complete. And they do not complete them. On the other hand, colleges (and Institutes of Technology in particular) receive academic fees, subvention, and registration fees for each student registered. No questions are being asked as to why up to 70% will not complete, or will fail, the first year of courses that they are simply not able for.

There is a cohort of young person being cynically and blatantly sold a pup by third level education. Not everybody is a suitable candidate for a Level 6/7 course. More sadly, many of those who are not yet suitable, could be, given a year post-secondary to mature a little and develop their skills.

This will come back to bite us...

endacl

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

I teach in the PLC sector, which has been decimated in recent years. Our own college offers three fulltime courses. 10 years ago, each of these would have run two classes in each course, with well over 100 students attending and (most) successfully completing each year. This year, we were down to a total of less than 30.

Students are being offered third level places which they are patently not equipped to complete. And they do not complete them. On the other hand, colleges (and Institutes of Technology in particular) receive academic fees, subvention, and registration fees for each student registered. No questions are being asked as to why up to 70% will not complete, or will fail, the first year of courses that they are simply not able for.

There is a cohort of young person being cynically and blatantly sold a pup by third level education. Not everybody is a suitable candidate for a Level 6/7 course. More sadly, many of those who are not yet suitable, could be, given a year post-secondary to mature a little and develop their skills.

This will come back to bite us...

Jimmy Dags

No one to lay a few blocks in a few years or few gauges of mortar on a wall. They will be too busy sitting at an office working and posting 50 plus posts a day giving out about trivial things.

Bitches Be Trypsin

steddyeddy wrote: »

And if you can't afford you don't pay. Simple as.

Are you referring to SUSI?

steddyeddy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Did you go yourself?

Yes I did. The first in my family to go too. I do think we have too many students at third level but it's not students from poorer backgrounds that are the most numerous. I'm not looking to deny anyone a chance.

Hitman3000

steddyeddy wrote:

Yes I did. The first in my family to go too. I do think we have too many students at third level but it's not students from poorer backgrounds that are the most numerous. I'm not looking to deny anyone a chance.

So would you like to impose a cap?

steddyeddy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So would you like to impose a cap?

No as I said I would interview students prior to taking up a degree place.

Hitman3000

steddyeddy wrote:

No as I said I would interview students prior to taking up a degree place.

Some people are terrible in an interview setting. Of course the up side is you would create an interview preparation industry with only those able to pay gaining an advantage. Hardly fair.

Education has been watered down.....too thick for mech eng....do a degree in manufacturing technology or some other horse ****.

Add that & similar onto to largely useless BAs that universities have always offered and a huge proportion of 3rd level courses are arsebiscuits.

Clerical officers with degrees in history etc etc.

Load of ole w@nk.

To be fair sh1t qualifications generally lead to sh1t pay so that's something I suppose.... no ones being fooled really....except those thinking they're qualified in anything meaningful.

Sam Quentin

Absolutely.
Some kids are academically minded and of course need to be 'nurtured' and they then progress well in third level,, which is great.. And some kids are mechanically or 'labour' minded and would do so much better put straight into apprenticeships and out into trade which is great also..
Unfortunately some parents and students alike feel it's 'good and proper' to continue on into 3rd level and for no solid reason really!?

jamesbere

Encouraging education is good but sending so many young people to college means more demand for work which is not a certainty.

I live on college Rd in Cork and the increase in students is definitely a way more evident to me this year then last. Also there's one student accommodation nearly completed on western rd, add to that another in development and two more of which planning is approved. So UCC is definitely going to get bigger increase in numbers. Its going to be really busy out there, which is good in one way but it has its negatives especially on an anti social behavior side.

Ficheall

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

jamesbere

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

If universities are doing that than it makes sense, I've met people who have degrees and I've no idea how on earth they even passed an exam. Totally red useless.

Sam Quentin

jamesbere wrote: »

Encouraging education is good but sending so many young people to college means more demand for work which is not a certainty.

I live on college Rd in Cork and the increase in students is definitely a way more evident to me this year then last. Also there's one student accommodation nearly completed on western rd, add to that another in development and two more of which planning is approved. So UCC is definitely going to get bigger increase in numbers. Its going to be really busy out there, which is good in one way but it has its negatives especially on an anti social behavior side.

Absolutely,. it's the same in Dundalk, whole housing estates are basically now for students, they're 'no go areas' and I don't mean dangerous or anything like that.. But they just are not suited anymore for families, actually young families who originally lived in these estates have moved on or really would love to move on, late night parties, constant traffic, bad parking, walking through gardens,.. all that comes with young dumb and away from Mum behaviour!?

Roger Hassenforder

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis ... Of course, that's bad for business...

nail on the head there squire.
colleges and universities are no longer places of higher education, they're commercial entities.

no problem sending too many/all kids to college if that's what they want.
But we've too many "bull****" courses on offer, hoovering up public money with lecturers in sinecures, with little return on investment. Fair enough someone is passionate about a subject, but churning out 100s of kids every year with a qualification there is little to no employment market is ridiculous.

Graces7

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's always amazing the amount of people who come out of college practically illiterate.

Not half as illiterate as some of their fathers or uncles. I have had eg rural landlords who literally could barely write their names.

Graces7

Ficheall wrote: »

If the unis stopped massaging exam results and ensuring everyone passed no matter how poor they were, it would be a start. Of course, that's bad for business...

This is all part of the "dilution" of education that is damaging. It means less and less as time goes on.

irishrebe

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's always amazing the amount of people who come out of college practically illiterate.

Wow. I hope that was supposed to be ironic, but I don't think it was.

CrabRevolution

It's a bit of a disincentive to work hard at your LC if you could just have months/years of your hard work undone by a once off interview.

irishrebe

CrabRevolution wrote: »

It's a bit of a disincentive to work hard at your LC if you could just have months/years of your hard work undone by a once off interview.

That's pretty much how it works in the UK. Not everyone is interviewed, but the personal statement is a big part of the application process and they can also see the school you go to and other information which lets them make biased decisions. 

A friend of mind didn't get into Bristol university because they went out of the way that year to accept mostly state school students, and she was at a grammar school in Northern Ireland (not a privileged person at all, grew up on a council estate and worked her arse off, but the applications officers were too stupid to understand that, just thought 'grammar school = posh'), so she missed out on a place despite being predicted 4As at A Level and having straight As in her GCSEs. Grossly unfair. That can't happen in Ireland - if you get the points, you get the place, and if there are too many applicants, then it's a lottery. Nobody should lose out on a third level place because of discrimination on any grounds.

pumpkin4life

Yes.

University should be for the top 10-20% at most of people in terms of intelligence and moreso, with the internet, bar medicine or using some complex scientific machinery , you can pretty much learn whatever you want all by yourself for a fraction of the cost. You learn most things on the job anyway in addition to this as well, or at least that has been my experience. Pissing away 4 years of your life to pay public sector academic cùnts and administrators obscene amounts of money is not fair to young people at all. They really are getting fùcked over with this.

If you are going to go to university though, go for STEM. The rest is a waste of time.

irishrebe

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Yes.

University should be for the top 10-20% at most of people in terms of intelligence and moreso, with the internet, bar medicine or using some complex scientific machinery , you can pretty much learn whatever you want all by yourself for a fraction of the cost. You learn most things on the job anyway in addition to this as well, or at least that has been my experience. Pissing away 4 years of your life to pay public sector academic cùnts and administrators obscene amounts of money is not fair to young people at all. They really are getting fùcked over with this.

If you are going to go to university though, go for STEM. The rest is a waste of time.

I can't stand when people trot this out. STEM isn't the be-all and end-all and not everyone is cut out for it. If every single student going to university picked STEM then that job market would also soon be flooded. I'm a translator and needed my degree (and Master's, in several cases) for jobs I've had. I agree that fewer students should be pushed into third level (plenty of people in my class weren't able for it at all), but disagree that only STEM is worth doing there.

jonon9

I believe were heading in a direction where youths of today and the next generation wont know how to do things with their hands. For the past year or so iv been teaching my daughter how to do things like recently how to service a lawnmower, change out old taps for new taps, how to change a flat tire etc I know it doesnt sound like much but teaching kids early about working with your hands isnt the worst and if she decides she doesnt want to go to college im not gonna force her something she doesnt want to do.

No shame in working with your hands for a living.

pumpkin4life

irishrebe wrote: »

I can't stand when people trot this out. STEM isn't the be-all and end-all and not everyone is cut out for it. If every single student going to university picked STEM then that job market would also soon be flooded. I'm a translator and needed my degree (and Master's, in several cases) for jobs I've had. I agree that fewer students should be pushed into third level (plenty of people in my class weren't able for it at all), but disagree that only STEM is worth doing there.

So you needed 4 to 5 years of education to translate documents/books/people speaking?

Honest question. If you used the internet/practiced yourself/lived in another country for a bit or whatever combination could you have not learned that in half the time, rather than use up all that time and money listening to some lecturer drone on about some random shìte?

BTW, I know that to be even considered for a lot of jobs, you need a degree. It's just the impracticality of it that is a scam/funny out.

Geuze

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jack third level fees are paid for by the state no matter how well off your parents are. Registration fees aren't covered but they're not large.

The 3,000 student contribution is fees.

You can call it what you like, but it's fees.

Mrs OBumble

pumpkin4life wrote: »

So you needed 4 to 5 years of education to translate documents/books/people speaking?

You pretty much do. (And I say that as a monolingual.)

Translation isn't about the easy bits of language, it's about the hard bits: technical documents, legal stuff, complex medical stuff etc.


IMHO the problem is also with 2nd level, which produces kids who aren't mature enough to start apprenticeships or entry level jobs.

Donald Trump

Owryan wrote: »

I think there is too much pressure on young people to go to college and enter a profession, esp if they are still trying to find out what they want to do.

I'm 43 and a mature student, just finished my honours year, it was obvious from 1st year that many "kids" on the course had no idea what they wanted to do, what the course was about and were only there's because it was expected of them.

First up, fair play to you for finishing your course.


While I understand the point about not knowing what you want, a student will still learn a lot and they don't have to work in the "field" in which they studied. Most students don't.




Those "kids" may not know what they want to do, but when they figure out what that is, they'll already have a degree under their belt and the knowledge that they can get through the system. Nothing prevents them from going back to study in that other field at a later date if they wish to. It's a massive headstart

A Pint of Goo

wexie wrote: »

Also I'd love to know what the hell we're going to do with all these gender studies graduates

Umm, where do you think the recruits for the Privilege Inspectors are going to come from?

Gravelly

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

Umm, where do you think the recruits for the Privilege Inspectors are going to come from?

Or the future Irish Times columnists.