Interesting youtube channels

enfant terrible wrote: »

Did people actually believe Derren Brown did real magic?

If so more fool them.

Suppose it depends what you mean by "real" magic There was a guy who used to post on boards who genuinely believed all this stuff was really "real". I generally stayed away from him but another boards user engaged with him.

And even when it was explained exactly how a trick could be done to that user - the user just said "Well just because _you_ do it that way does not mean my guru does not actually have super mind powers!"

It was painfully sad to watch someone that deluded.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Wise Uncle. It explains how people like Derren Brown or Lior Suchard do their tricks.

I have watched a lot of channels like that. The truth is they show you _a_ way that such entertainers _could_ be doing their tricks. But actually very often if you see the same trick done by 5 different people - they are doing it 5 different ways.

In fact as someone who does a lot of the same entertainment myself at a relatively high level amateur level - I often find it very helpful to know 2 or more ways to achieve the same illusion in case something goes wrong with my preferred method and I have to shift rather than panic. This happens a lot. And the sign of a good amateur or professional is when you see how fluidly they can shift method when they need to.

It is also lazy to shout "Stooge" at tricks you can not explain. You can explain any trick by shouting "stooge" at it and look smug as if you are in the know. And yes this is because using a stooge would in fact achieve the trick. But again - as someone who does that kind of stuff sometimes - I would just be bored doing it with a stooge. Just because someone can explain how a trick would work with a stooge does not mean it was done with a stooge.

For example I have performed this exact show myself the first time I got to go to the EU Christmas Party of my company (usually I only go to the Christmas Party of the small Ireland branch). The idea of "stooge" was thrown around a lot by the people who were having a great time trying to explain it after the show. I promised them profusely if they guessed how I did it I would admit it. They did not guess. Needless to say I used no stooge and the entire trick was done by me and me alone. The guy guarding the envelopes as people put them in for me was accused of being the stooge of course. But he performed his task in absolute good faith.

I would admit it here too if you guess it. The problem is people tend to try to come up with the most complex explanations. In fact how I did it was _incredibly_ simple. People's minds generally do not go to the simple answer. They want/need a complex one.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I mean if you asked Derren brown if he would subject his claims of NLP to rigorous independent scientific testing. He would undoubtedly say no.

Could you be specific as to which claims you are referring to? Because outside of his book I have not heard him mention it all that much at all and he was skeptical in his books - let alone make specific claims about it. So perhaps you have sources I have not seen yet which would interest me as I like to read about him and listen to him talk.

Generally though it is _other_ people who try to explain Browns methods using NLP and they ascribe it to him in ways he does not do himself. Mainly people who have never attempted this form of entertainment themselves so they reach for NLP to explain what to them is unexplainable. As I said above - people want the complex explanations.

Even his Wiki page states:

In response to the accusation that he unfairly claims to be using NLP whenever he performs, he wrote, "The truth is I have never mentioned it outside of my book."

You might also enjoy reading this letter from the man himself as it mentions both NLP and stooges and what should be taken with "a pinch of salt":

https://derrenbrown.co.uk/claim-claim-2/

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

If he were not pushing into trying to claim it can help people with mental health etc and encouraging people to suspend their disbelief about mental health gurus. That would be fine.

Again I would be interested in the citations you are using here. I have heard Brown talk about Mental Health - but I have not heard him use NLP as part of it. Rather he most often espouses a mix of story telling and stoicism as a route to mental health. As in - he believes that a significant portion (though not all) of the mental health we suffer from come from the narratives and stories we tell ourselves about our suffering. The Podcaster Sam Harris says much the same thing in fact.

Could you cite the locations where he A) suggests NLP as a mental health methodology and encourages you to suspend disbelieve in gurus?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They use misdirection claiming its psychology when really it's cameras and slight of hand. Etc.

Brown tends to say that it is a combination of everything. So for the third time I would be interested in your citations here. I do not think it fair to say Brown uses misdirection but claims psychology. Rather he would himself say that he uses both misdirection _and_ aspects of psychology.

In fact to get a citation of my own I did not even cherry pick. I _randomly_ opened an episode of one of his shows on You Tube and the very first thing out of his mouth was "This program fuses magic, suggestions, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. I achieve all the results you will see through a varied mixture of those techniques. At no point are actors or stooges used in the show".

Where there is he "using misdirection claiming its psychology" exactly? Was it in interviews? In print? Or actually _during_ a trick? If during a trick I could grant you this - but only insofar as pretty much everyone doing that trick would do the same. A random example I can think of is when he/we have three boxes with a ring in one and empty in the others. And the mark has to find the ring. And the "patter" you hit them at high speed with during the trick to knock the marks attention off would be pretending to be influencing their mind or their decision. Saying things like "Hah because you picked number 1 you'll be thinking to try and throw me off by picking 1 again - but I know what you will actually do".

The truth is - when Brown or I do that trick it's an off the shelf cheap trick from any magic store.

What I would say as devils advocate against people like him is that they never define what they mean by "psychology". I reckon they use a very loose definition of it indeed. They want the viewer to think of professional level psychology like if you went into a trained mental health professional. Rather what I believe they mean is just basic knowledge about how the human mind works in certain situations. Such as how prone to certain things they become under duress - panic - confusion - or embarrassment. Or like I said above about people wanting a complex answer so they miss the simple one. That is - technically - psychology. So if I use that fact in my entertainment I could justifiably say I am using psychology.

The best example from my own repotoire of this is a "trick" I have been developing based on a mix of techniques used by Brown and others. This is where I go into 20 different shops and manipulate the cashier to give me change from a 50 euro note even though I paid with a 10 euro note.

When I started I generally got about 1/2 hits out of 20. The last time I tried it I got a near perfect score. (Note I in every case attempted to return the money honestly after the trick - I am not a thief. Though I say "attempted" because in one case the cashier was so offended by the idea he would ever make a mistake he refused to believe an error had been made - so I left with the money intending to return it to the manager the next day but never got around to it).

But when I am doing it I am using things I know about basic human drives and psychology. And I am using specific words - ways of talking - and even certain positioning of my own hands and body - to manipulate those things in my "mark" to get the result I want.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Derren Brown has claimed he was taught NLP and runs courses in it.

Skipped record here but can I ask you again for a citation? I can not find him offering or running and courses on anything at all - let alone specifically NLP.