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Heat Pumps - post here.

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12357…119

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    #122
    sunnymeade01
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭sunnymeade01


    Connacht wrote: »
    Ok lads,
    I know of a person in a ca. 4,000 sq ft house with only GSHP UFH heating and no back-up rads or OFCH or anything else.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2009 - Euro 5,000 - day units 21,000 - night units 19,000.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2008 - Euro 4,000 - day units 15,000 - night units 19,000.
    Clearly, there is something VERY seriously wrong here.
    Can anyone say what it is likely to be ? It's a pretty new build (less than 7 years), so it's unlikely to be poor insulation. Even setting the room to 20 C all the time would hardly account for such bills. This sounds like a real problem with the system, no ?
    what company did you use?


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    #123
    sunnymeade01
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭sunnymeade01


    PLEASE HELP

    hi all, I got a Thermia DUO 1550 heat pump installed in 2007

    New build 4000sq ft, radiators upstairs,
    my ESB usage in 2008 was 35063 units
    my bills in 2008 varied from €370 - €1350(i got two bills for this amount)

    my ESB usage in 2009 was 15012 units
    my ESB usage in 2009 varied form €250 - €730

    my first bill for 2010 was €1306 and 11264 units

    this has put me in the poor house and if I get another bill like this I
    will loose my house


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    #124
    sunnymeade01
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭sunnymeade01


    I used Heatlink


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    #125
    The Hurricane
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭The Hurricane


    Hi Sunnymeade

    Hope I can help Ive had Geothermal installed for 3 years in august this year house is 3000 sq ft built house in 2006 well insulated etc. I have an Alpha Innotech 12 kw Heat pump with boreholes as opposed to ground loops. My esb bill for last year April - April was €1470 total including light all esb house usage I used 5316 night units and 7448 day units. Last February I installed a motorosied valve at the pipe entrance to all the manifolds as there was a slight leak somewhere so the heat pump was coming on during the day when none of the room stats were calling for heat. Since I have done this and fitted a timer operating the heat pump only on nightsaver electricity 11pm -7pm. It has been great im delighted since we had the coldest winter in ages it actually worked really well. Some rooms especially with a lot of glazing just never reach the set roomstat temperature. The garage door is a wooden one wish I had put in a proper PVC sealed door ( doing it this summer) and this affects the utility which is next door to it.

    Basically in the first year we moved in we got high ESB bills and I complained to the plumber he kept fobbing me off saying it was normal and the high esb bills would calm down once house dried out etc and all his customers got high winter bills I got sick of him ( hes since gone bust) and contacted Powertech to check the system out for peace of mind. His work and plumbing was perfect but he had the heatpump starting up 3 times an hour with the compressor working doing absolutely nothing which was using up units during the day and of no benefit energy or heatwise.

    My advice is get the system checked out by the manufacturer and fit a timer so it only comes on during the nightsaver hours and maybe a motorosied valve depending on your system.

    Your ESB usage is incredibly high either your heatpump is sized wrong for the energy demand of your house given its size or the heatpump settings are not set to come on at night when you can farm in cheap electricity.

    Hope this helps you as I had those high bills for a few months and how I discovered it was monitoring the esb over a 12 and 24 hour period.



    hi all, I got a Thermia DUO 1550 heat pump installed in 2007

    New build 4000sq ft, radiators upstairs,
    my ESB usage in 2008 was 35063 units
    my bills in 2008 varied from €370 - €1350(i got two bills for this amount)

    my ESB usage in 2009 was 15012 units
    my ESB usage in 2009 varied form €250 - €730

    my first bill for 2010 was €1306 and 11264 units

    this has put me in the poor house and if I get another bill like this I
    will loose my house


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    #126
    sunnymeade01
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭sunnymeade01


    thak's alot for the reply, I have got a timer installed for Rads and it is rarely used
    also
    my day units for 2008 = 17972 & night units = 17091
    my day units for 2009 = 9662 & night units = 5350

    I just dont understand


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    #127
    metalworker65
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭metalworker65


    I fitted a cost moniter on heating system only in order to know what going on with my system and predict/moniter bills . High bills are caused by running too much during day because heating controls not set up properly. I set mine to run flat out at night during low cost period . I have eurosmart controls which allows setting of boost heat ( induvidual zones set to plus 2 degrees during last hrs of low cost period) . This trick forces a battery storage of heat into your floor slabs in hard to heat zones which will leak out low cost heat all day and cut out expensive day units. If this is not done pump will be on during day doing work than could be done at night. My usage of electricity is in ratio of 2:1 nightsaver / day units. Pump needs to be sized big enough to do most of job during night for low cost running. Mine is a 15kw output and i wish it was bigger for cold spells.It gets allowed 4pm to 8pm during day and in cold spells it runs flat out for this period . Total heating cost year €800 year.


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    #128
    sunnymeade01
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭sunnymeade01


    Where can I buy a cost monitor:)


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    #129
    daveoc16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭daveoc16


    Hi Guys,
    I'm shortly starting building a bungalow approx 2500sqFt. I am trying to get info good/bad/indifferent on Air to Water HPs. In theory looks good as an alternative to Oil Boiler/Solar Panels combo.
    I had planned using rads. Couple of questions end users may be able to answer....(i'm a bit clueless on this).
    • Is using an AWHP as good to heat the home as an oil boiler?
    • How effective are rads with an Air to Water Heat Pump as opposed to UFH? (much difference in the ESB bill also?)
    • Is installing underfloor heating much more expensive than Rads?
    • And finally....Of those of you that have done it, in terms of heating you home and paying the ESB bill, would you do it again??????
    (I am currently looking at a brochure for a Mitsubishi Ecodan)
    Any other points gratefully accepted.

    Thanks in advance.


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    #130
    RKQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    daveoc16 wrote: »
    • Is using an AWHP as good to heat the home as an oil boiler?

    Can't say as I have a borehole and ground heat pump.
    daveoc16 wrote: »
    • How effective are rads with an Air to Water Heat Pump as opposed to UFH? (much difference in the ESB bill also?)

    IMO UFH pipes are better - slab acts as a radiator & water temp doesn't need to be as high for UFH as it does for Rads.
    daveoc16 wrote: »
    • Is installing underfloor heating much more expensive than Rads?

    Yes it is.
    • And finally....Of those of you that have done it, in terms of heating you home and paying the ESB bill, would you do it again?????
    Yes, definately.


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    #131
    a ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭a ken


    Hi
    building house at min does any 1 hav a well geo unit fitted . any how is it going (running costs, any trouble)
    cheers al


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    #132
    ECO_Mental
    Registered Users Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    There are 9 pages of replys from people who have heat pumps on this tread giving their experiences of their setup's have read back through them and you will find all the answers you need

    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



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    #133
    Jrochey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Jrochey


    Just Wondering has anyone any info on a conenergy heat pump serie classic 13bw heat pump any good bad or indifferent stories from anyone out there thinking of gettting one any advice from anyone


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    #134
    mr_edge_to_you
    Registered Users Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    Well we've reached the end of our first winter in our new house. We built a 2200sq ft house with vertical geo-thermal (Thermia) heat pump with UFH upstairs and downstairs.

    It what was the coldest winter in decades we can't speak highly enough of the heating system. It was installed by a company who were previously mentioned negatively on this thread.

    Our full ESB usage from October to January (4 very cold months) we are looking at a cost of €615. We're very impressed! My wife works 3 days a week so she is home most of the time. The house is lovely and warm all the time. When the winter arrived we increased the heat pump temp gradually until we reached a level that we liked. Once we got to 19 degrees we found it perfect. The installer said to take a few days and gradually increase the temp - if you lash the heatpump up to 23 degrees on the first cold day of the winter you'll need to keep it at that temp. Simple and logical - great advice.

    It is also important to remember that the cost of €615 includes our standard electricity usage.

    Like a previous poster, we run the heatpump through the night from 12 to 8 and that normally does the job.

    How much is a fill of oil?


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    #135
    gunner0098
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hi all,

    Very interesting thread on geo and UFH. I have a NIBE 1220 with horizontal collector and UFH heating up and downstairs, in a dormer bungalow 2100 sq ft.
    I have been having on going problems with my system. I want to get a 2nd opinion on my install and was wondering could anyone recommend someone they've dealt with on a professional basis to do this?

    Thanks
    S


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    #136
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    daveoc16 wrote: »
    [*]Is installing underfloor heating much more expensive than Rads?

    Tbh, in my experience, not a lot.

    I say this as I am differentiating between costing a lot more and being charged a lot more, by installers.

    Look at it this way, if you had a microbore system with rads, the infrastructure would be almost identical, bar the emitter (rads vs floors).

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #137
    gunner0098
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hi,

    Can anyone tell me about the fluid that goes into a ground source horizontal collector? I know it's a mix of anti freeze and water but I'd like to know about ratio's etc.

    Thanks in advance
    gunner


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    #138
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    gunner0098 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Can anyone tell me about the fluid that goes into a ground source horizontal collector? I know it's a mix of anti freeze and water but I'd like to know about ratio's etc.

    Thanks in advance
    gunner

    Should be around 30% glycol Gunner. You can get testers to check that the mix is ok. You should aim for a protection temp of -10 to -12. Also not all glycols are suitable for the application, so check your getting the right one, that is rated for long life.


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    #139
    L driver
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭L driver


    Hello,
    Can ashp be connected to a thermal store to prevent heating the ufh at night and making the house difficult to sleep in? Then an hour or so before waking let the room stats make the call and the hp can work in the night rate again for the last hour or so on night rate. Can a hp heat a thermal store high enough efficiently.


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    #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not 100% sure here but,
    Yes a thermal store will work, you will need to make it larger than usual as the water will be stored at a lower temperature to allow the heat pump to work more efficiently. Normally the thermal store is set to about 65C and the water mixed down to the correct temperature. If the thermal store holds the water at the same temperature as the ufh then you'll need a tank much bigger to hold the same amount of energy.


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    #141
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    L driver wrote: »
    Hello,
    Can ashp be connected to a thermal store to prevent heating the ufh at night and making the house difficult to sleep in? Then an hour or so before waking let the room stats make the call and the hp can work in the night rate again for the last hour or so on night rate. Can a hp heat a thermal store high enough efficiently.

    You would need a buffer of several thousand litres in order to cover the amount of energy required. Also pushing up the temp you're producing in the buffer will pull down the system efficiency so it would be counterproductive. Lastly, its normally much colder at night than it is during the day which means an ASHP would be at its least efficient, so running it like that would not give you any benefit.

    If the house is well insulated and the HP designed properly you won't have to resort to such measures as the running costs would not be an issue.


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    #142
    L driver
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭L driver


    Condenser wrote: »
    You would need a buffer of several thousand litres in order to cover the amount of energy required. Also pushing up the temp you're producing in the buffer will pull down the system efficiency so it would be counterproductive. Lastly, its normally much colder at night than it is during the day which means an ASHP would be at its least efficient, so running it like that would not give you any benefit.

    If the house is well insulated and the HP designed properly you won't have to resort to such measures as the running costs would not be an issue.

    Thanks Condenser,
    I thought heatpumps had to be run on night saver? which is mad for ashp no doubt. So an ashp can be run on ordinary tariff during the day direct to the UFH and if one could pipe extract hrv and maybe a cheap ground air pipe to the ashp it should be an efficient system, can an ashp look after DHW? I have the build fabric sorted in my build now I just want to get the DHW and CH as efficient as possible, so sorry for all the Q's but I don't know much in that regard.:o


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    #143
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    L driver wrote: »
    Thanks Condenser,
    I thought heatpumps had to be run on night saver? which is mad for ashp no doubt. So an ashp can be run on ordinary tariff during the day direct to the UFH and if one could pipe extract hrv and maybe a cheap ground air pipe to the ashp it should be an efficient system, can an ashp look after DHW? I have the build fabric sorted in my build now I just want to get the DHW and CH as efficient as possible, so sorry for all the Q's but I don't know much in that regard.:o

    Night rate is an excuse used by poor installers with poor equipment to cover their ass and appear to have lower bills. For anything under 12kw I wouldn't even bother with night rate. You don't want to heat your house when you're under a duvet, its uncomfortable and illogical.
    Ground HR pipes cause restrictions in airflow so push up the electrical consumption on the fanmotor therefore decreasing COP so their benefit is questionable.
    Question, why are you so sold on ASHP. There are alot of cheap units out there at the moment from some big name manufacturers but they're not all they're cracked up to be. I would exhaust all other HP possibilities before going ASHP. Especially with the winters we are told to expect in the next 5-10yrs.
    HP's can more than adaquately cover hot water production but there are systems that do it far better than others. Most back up their production with immersions which is expensive, others don't require this. Its all down to product and design


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    #144
    L driver
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭L driver


    Hello,
    From reading through this the installer seems to be the main problem with heat pumps going wrong? Is there any certification, proper certification for installer or is it attend a 2 day course by xxx manufacturer and pay your fee and off you go? Also is there much difference in heatpumps, could someone list say the top 5 brands with their cop when the winter is say -12 as we seem to now get and we need 20c inside and hot water, in the 8 to 12kW domestic range. Also can anyone justify a borehole over ground loop? Heinbloed puts up a decent link about a European poll, can someone from the hp side of things here stand up and give honest assessment and figures.


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    #145
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    L driver wrote: »
    Hello,
    From reading through this the installer seems to be the main problem with heat pumps going wrong? Is there any certification, proper certification for installer or is it attend a 2 day course by xxx manufacturer and pay your fee and off you go? Also is there much difference in heatpumps, could someone list say the top 5 brands with their cop when the winter is say -12 as we seem to now get and we need 20c inside and hot water, in the 8 to 12kW domestic range. Also can anyone justify a borehole over ground loop? Heinbloed puts up a decent link about a European poll, can someone from the hp side of things here stand up and give honest assessment and figures.

    There is no real certification in Ireland. There was a SEI course that people had to attend but its not worth the paper its written on, just another money spinner for FAS training companies.
    With ground source and vertical loop system, outside temp has little to no influence on their performance. Thats not the case with airsource. The COP of an air source unit will drop 3% for every degree drop in temp.
    The main thing to look out for when choosing between HP's is if the manufacturer is giving credible COP's, some quote without brine circulating pumps being included in the calculation, some air source manufacturers ignore the energy required for defrost.
    The European standards (EN255) are as follows :

    Air source: A2 W35 (Which means an air temp of 2 and water off of 35)
    Brine : B0 W35
    DX : E4 W35
    Water to water : W10 W35

    Despite these figures looking quite different they give an almost exact match in terms of the performance outputs for each of the different types of heat pump.

    You also have to look out for people undersizing machines and backing up with immersions for cold weather. Heat pumps should never be undersized by more than 10% and airsource should be oversized by at least 25%.

    In order to know if you're being oversized or undersized you'll need to do a little work yourself to establish exactly what your heat requirements will roughly be.
    Heatpumps under 10kw should usually add about 2kw for hot water production also.


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    #146
    vicar1
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭vicar1


    Condenser,
    You seem to know your onions, maybe you can help me? I have an old house, not well insulated ( mass concrete ) approx 2400sq. radiator system with oil and solid fuel stove in living room. Would an air to water sytem be possible or cost effective for me ? If so, any advice on manufacturers / installers ? I am in Laois.
    Thank you very glad


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    #147
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    vicar1 wrote: »
    Condenser,
    You seem to know your onions, maybe you can help me? I have an old house, not well insulated ( mass concrete ) approx 2400sq. radiator system with oil and solid fuel stove in living room. Would an air to water sytem be possible or cost effective for me ? If so, any advice on manufacturers / installers ? I am in Laois.
    Thank you very glad

    I wouldn't use an air to water heat pump or any heat pump on radiators, especially in an old house. The temperature they will require will be too high and the COP on the HP will be through the floor. Add to that a diminishing output as the air temperature drops and you'll end up with a system you're not happy with.
    You would need a low temp system to even contemplate using a heat pump and even then you should look at increasing your insulation first.


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    #148
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Condenser wrote: »
    I wouldn't use an air to water heat pump or any heat pump on radiators, especially in an old house. The temperature they will require will be too high and the COP on the HP will be through the floor. Add to that a diminishing output as the air temperature drops and you'll end up with a system you're not happy with.
    You would need a low temp system to even contemplate using a heat pump and even then you should look at increasing your insulation first.

    +1

    IMHO air source heat pumps are BS, there is generally a better solution and building fabric upgrades should always come first.


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    #149
    bluemountainz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭bluemountainz


    Condenser,

    Maybe you could give me some advice. At the stage of self build where I need to decide on heating system and leaning towards geo with horizontal collectors. It's a new build house 2500sqft, 150mm pumped cavity, 150mm metac to slopes, 300mm fibreglass in attic, and hoping to install Siga airtight membrame to windows and doors.

    Would you know roughly what size hp I would need to heat the house? Sorry if this is a really silly question, I'm a bit out of my depth and I'm getting so much advice from different hp suppliers that my head's spinning!! Any impartial advice would be appreciated.


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    #150
    p38dse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭p38dse


    For what its worth, I installed a geothermal heat pump system in my house in 2007, after a lot of messing around with settings, and finally getting night rate electric supply, I managed to get my bills down to about €150 a month, with a €200 (over the coldest period) spike last winter due to the very cold conditions.
    All and all I was happy this new system was going to save me money over a ten year period...........................that was until friday when my "ultra reliable maintenance free" compressor just stopped working, called up guys who fitted the system only to be told it was unservicable and would cost €2000 to fit a new one.
    Of course I paid the money, and now my heating is working fine, but, less than 5 years! Be warned this system is new to Ireland, and from my experience there are not many people qualified to recommend fitting it, as when things go wrong, it cant be repaired just replaced.
    Hopefully I was just unlucky but as I was one of the earlier installs only time will tell.
    Happy Christmas!


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    #151
    JB81
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭JB81


    Hi

    Just thought I would share my experience with Heat Pumps. Have an Air-to-Water Heat Pump in an 2000 sq. ft. bungalow with Underfloor Heating. Just recieved ESB Bill for the 2 months December and January ( which I understand were by no means the worst Winter ). The bill was €210. Taking into account this is for my normal ESB usage as well ( lights, TV ), and considering we had company at Christmas and a lot of cooking ( which is all electric as well ) I am very pleased with the running costs. Although I dont have a breakdown of the heating itself. It runs from 12-7am on night rate and I had it boosted for 2 hours in the evening, and this would only come on if the temperature was low enough ( which a lot if the time it wasnt ), so over all very happy with the performance.

    Thanks
    JB


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