A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 12:53pm

Makes sense.

Hit someone at 30kph and they have a 90% chance of living. Hit them at 50kph and its 50/50.

If you cant keep your car at 30kph without looking at a speedometer you shouldn't frankly have a licence.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 12:54pm

is_that_so wrote: »

As a speed it requires a fair bit of concentration to hold for very long as it feels unnaturally slow.

You're moving at speed in a ton metal box.

It's all unnatural.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 12:56pm

Sheep_shear wrote: »

Egh, and it sucks. Really. Doing 20mph in areas where it's not needed is just the worst. Oh and this of course only applies to motorists, bicycles frequently try to "undertake" you in such zones.

At 30kph on a flat?

Are you driving around a velodrome?

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 12:58pm

HartsHat wrote: »

Makes sense.

Hit someone at 30kph and they have a 90% chance of living. Hit them at 50kph and its 50/50.

If you cant keep your car at 30kph without looking at a speedometer you shouldn't frankly have a licence.

I think there is a difference between want and can. Everyone can keep a car going 30kmph but nobody does at least not all the time. And when you have one of those rules that everybody ignores it's impossible to police it.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 1:00pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I think there is a difference between want and can. Everyone can keep a car going 30kmph but nobody does at least not all the time. And when you have one of those rules that everybody ignores it's impossible to police it.

So people are ignoring rules that can lead to death, because they want to?

Such a snowflake millennial attitude. All about what people want and what they feel.

seamus · 03-06-2020 1:00pm

meeeeh wrote: »

That's because nobody actually drives 30 kph. Neither they will now. People will be either stuck in cars doing 0kph because planning really isn't a thing Dublin council do and outside the busiest hours you don't need to worry because nobody is measuring the speed anyway.

That graph wasn't created by standing on the side of the road watching traffic.

Humans are hardy in many ways, but there is a limit to our hardiness. This is typically because your brain gets knocked around inside your skull, and it is only capable of taking a certain amount of force. Once the forces hit a certain point, the odds of you surviving drop quite dramatically.
This is true whether you fall out of tree, trip on a kerb, jump off a cliff or get hit by a car.

For people getting hit by large moving metal objects this "certain point" is around 30-35km/h.

kona · 03-06-2020 1:00pm

Does this apply to cyclists too? Youd quite frankly shouldnt be on a bike in traffic if you cant maintain 30kmph.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 1:01pm

kona wrote: »

Does this apply to cyclists too? Youd quite frankly shouldnt be on a bike in traffic if you cant maintain 30kmph.

It's a limit, not a target.

I presume you haven't done your driving test yet.

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 1:02pm

HartsHat wrote: »

So people are ignoring rules that can lead to death, because they want to?

Such a snowflake millennial attitude. All about what people want and what they feel.

Yes we can all pretend we all obey the rules all the time. I let you know when I actually see anyone driving 30 without being:

a. stuck in traffic
b. 90
c. or drunk.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 1:03pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes we can all pretend we all obey the rules all the time. I let you know when I actually see anyone driving 30 without being:

a. stuck in traffic
b. 90
c. or drunk.

Are you trying to tell me 100% of sober motorists (that are not 90) break the 30kph speed limits when they can?

No wonder so many pedestrians are killed by cars.

thebaz · 03-06-2020 1:04pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I think there is a difference between want and can. Everyone can keep a car going 30kmph but nobody does at least not all the time. And when you have one of those rules that everybody ignores it's impossible to police it.

Unfortubnatly it will be an easy law to enforce - a stupid law - but with cameras and penalty points they will implement it quite easiiy , leading to higher insurances and suspended licenses for an already under pressure section of society -

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 1:05pm

thebaz wrote: »

Unfortubnatly it will be an easy law to enforce - a stupid law - but with cameras and penalty points they will implement it quite easiiy , leading to higher insurances and suspended licenses for an already under pressure section of society -

People who cant obey the law?

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 1:06pm

HartsHat wrote: »

At 30kph on a flat?

Are you driving around a velodrome?

I hit 60km/h on the flat recently in my bike. Granted, there may have been a *teensy* bit of wind assistance.

HartsHat · 03-06-2020 1:07pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

I hit 60km/h on the flat recently in my bike. Granted, there may have been a *teensy* bit of wind assistance.

Really? Fair play. That's some going.

I've never seen anyone go that fast on a bike.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 03-06-2020 1:10pm

kona wrote: »

Does this apply to cyclists too? Youd quite frankly shouldnt be on a bike in traffic if you cant maintain 30kmph.

The road traffic act does not apply to cyclists to my knowledge.

Hamsterchops · 03-06-2020 1:11pm

HartsHat wrote: »

If you cant keep your car at 30kph without looking at a speedometer you shouldn't frankly have a licence.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I've been driving since the early 1980s so I'm a very experienced driver, and I can safely say that's it is very difficult to drive a a very slow speed for any length of time!

The natural inclination is to go up through the gears and maintain the limit, but if the limit is just 30km/h (just 18 MPH) then you've just got to keep hovering between 2nd & 3rd gear, constantly clocking the Speedo in case you accidentally creep up... Oblivious to all else around you.

30km/h is fine in housing estates, but not on main arterial roads & dual carriageways, where it will be flouted by everybody deliberately & accidentally.

Hurrache · 03-06-2020 1:11pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This infantilisation of society.

I'm afraid that it's the outcry from some motorists on anything they perceive to be a threat to their imaginary rights on the roads that's infantile.

And although I've been called a cyclist on another thread, as if that's somehow an insult, there's also 2 cars in my drive, but weighed heavily with common sense.

johnmcdnl · 03-06-2020 1:12pm

is_that_so wrote: »

As a speed it requires a fair bit of concentration to hold for very long as it feels unnaturally slow.

Loose the negative "**** this slow speed limit" attitude and give and try practicing driving below 30kmph for an extended period of time. After a week or two it'll be second nature to you dropping down to that speed.
Maybe to help out there should be a bunch of speed bumps installed like in residential areas.

It's a pretty weak argument to suggest you need concentration to maintain a slow speed honestly. You could say that about any speed really. It's more the personal attitude that needs adjustment and more self discipline to adjust our habits to drive slower.

thebaz · 03-06-2020 1:13pm

HartsHat wrote: »

People who cant obey the law?

Not sure what your point is -

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 1:16pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I've been driving since the early 1980s so I'm a very experienced driver, and I can safely say that's it is very difficult to drive a a very slow speed for any length of time!

the main difficulty with driving on a 50km/h road at 30, is that other drivers are going much faster than you.
it's simple lack of practice at driving at 30km/h, as another poster mentioned.

seamus · 03-06-2020 1:16pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

The road traffic act does not apply to cyclists to my knowledge.

Most of it does. Certain parts of it only apply to certain vehicles though.

There are regulations that apply to bikes which don't apply to vehicles, and vice-versa.

Speed limits are one of these regulations, however a cyclist can still be charged with an offence if they pose a danger by going faster than is appropriate.

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I've been driving since the early 1980s so I'm a very experienced driver, and I can safely say that's it is very difficult to drive a a very slow speed for any length of time!

The natural inclination is to go up through the gears and maintain the limit, but if the limit is just 30km/h (just 18 MPH) then you've just got to keep hovering between 2nd & 3rd gear, constantly clocking the Speedo in case you accidentally creep up.

You can do 30km/h in fourth gear.

The argument about "having to constantly watch the speedo" is nonsense. There's no reason why you need to watch it any more at 30km/h than you do at 50km/h.

The entire argument is basically, "I'm used to doing it this way and I'm not willing to change". Same as the aul lads who still refuse to use a seat belt because they claim they can't move.

kona · 03-06-2020 1:18pm

HartsHat wrote: »

It's a limit, not a target.

I presume you haven't done your driving test yet.

You dont need a test for a pushbike?

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 1:33pm

seamus wrote: »

The argument about "having to constantly watch the speedo" is nonsense.

yeah, the 'you mean i have to know what speed i'm doing?' argument is one of those that you have to question whether the person making the point is trying to undermine their own argument.

if you are unable to drive while being able to keep a check on your speed, hand your car keys in.
so says mb, driving since the early 90s.

BorneTobyWilde · 03-06-2020 1:44pm

30kms, LOL
That's 18 mph, not sure what gear you'd need to be in to do that 4th too high, 3rd, maybe with torquey engine, 2nd in a small car. Truck would need to use low box.
Who invented these rules, someone who cycles?

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 1:50pm

HartsHat wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me 100% of sober motorists (that are not 90) break the 30kph speed limits when they can?

No wonder so many pedestrians are killed by cars.

100% is too absolute. I'm pretty sure there are some who are 80 that might not break it but vast majority of people do. And as for speed cameras sooner or later everyone figures where they are.

Anyway this is all just to create the impression that they are actyally doing something. It's one thing to set up the limit but completely different to actually prosecute large part of your electorate for breaking the law.

Thelonious Monk · 03-06-2020 2:24pm

Hope this happens, and I love how it irritates entitled motorists. 30km/ph will get you where you need to go quick enough in built up areas anyway, so it's no big deal.
The city has been designed around cars for long enough, it's about time the rest of us got a look in, walking around most of the city centre is an unpleasant experience because of private cars.
Oh and I love how people blame the Greens!

Truthvader · 03-06-2020 2:25pm

seamus wrote: »

"I have no decent argument for why cars should be given primacy over everything else, so I'll just invoke some dinosaur notions about vitality and masculinity to signal to others that I'm a real man™ who has no truck with poofter nonsense like the environment or saving lives. You're not a man unless you have a loud engine and a pretty woman in your passenger seat, and that's that".

You have me there- and I suspect a lot of other "real men".

Real women too. I remember well when I was younger and poorer (but very beautiful) the pretty women would not consider even for a second anyone without a car. Anyway keep on keeping on and think of me when the girl you actually want drives past your rainy bus stop giving you the pitying look.

Read the original post again The "decent argument" you couldn't find is at paragraph 2

Thelonious Monk · 03-06-2020 2:27pm

Truthvader wrote: »

You have me there- and I suspect a lot of other "real men".

Real women too. I remember well when I was younger and poorer (but very beautiful) the pretty women would not consider even for a second anyone without a car. Anyway keep on keeping on and think of me when the girl you actually want drives past your rainy bus stop giving you the pitying look.

Read the original post again The "decent argument" you couldn't find is at paragraph 2

What planet do you live on? Sounds like logic from a Benny Hill sketch.

ThunbergsAreGo · 03-06-2020 2:28pm

double jobbing wrote: »

I'm actually staggered reading this. 30km limits on ****ing dual carriageways like Malahide Rd.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0602/1145036-dublin-speed-limit/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/coronavirus-speed-limits-to-be-cut-to-30km-h-across-dublin-city-council-roads-1.4268992

RTE intimates it is temporary and related t COVID19 (which with any luck will be gone by new year) I.T seems to think more permanent.

Has anyone stopped to think that a person getting the first bus on some routes will effectively have to leave their cross town employment if a bus that used to maintain a 50kph is now put on a 30? Do they care this will now nearly double the commutes of people who use off peak services and who drive on same?

Do these people realise that with people glancing at the speedometer more often they are far more likely to have a collision? The increase in commuting times it will cause?

What are the end results of these public consultations, do a strong rebuke from the public actually make a difference?

I'm actually struggling to think how anybody can think 30kph on the Clontarf Rd is an acceptable scenario.

Surely they won't find enough concillors willing to pass this outside of the Green loopers. Do the Greens realise that in order to avoid these limits people will take to the M50 and burn more petrol doing longer journey's they normally would take through town?

I'm speechless.

Saying it is related or due to COVID 19 after the protest at the weekend is laughable!

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 2:33pm

Truthvader wrote: »

You have me there- and I suspect a lot of other "real men".

real men and women provide the engine for their own transport, with their own legs.
lily-livered pampered men and women need a car to do it for them, they are of weak character and their chins are regretful.

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 2:37pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The city has been designed around cars for long enough, it's about time the rest of us got a look in, walking around most of the city centre is an unpleasant experience because of private cars.

How will that change with lower speed limit? You don't seriously expect there will be less car traffic once restriction ease considering the public transport limits at the moment?

Dublin council had since March to look at how to improve situation and they came up with implementing 30 kph speed limit by the end of the year. Berlin was widening cycling lanes at least a month ago and Dublin is planing a speed limit change nobody will stick to in 6 months times.

And you are not irritating motorists, you are irritating people who live or work in Dublin and who between very poor transport options spend half a day commuting. Maybe some people are happy laughing at other people's misery but what does it matter if they are just as miserable themselves.

Madeleine Birchfield · 03-06-2020 2:39pm

30 km/h would make sense for minor roads but is too slow for arterial roads unless the number of lanes gets reduced by at least one.

spurious · 03-06-2020 2:44pm

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

30 km/h would make sense for minor roads but is too slow for arterial roads unless the number of lanes gets reduced by at least one.

It's cretinous.

'Proposal' like all the other whacko proposals.
Major shooting in foot by Greens going on.

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 2:49pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And you are not irritating motorists, you are irritating people who live or work in Dublin and who between very poor transport options spend half a day commuting.

again - and i guess i'll say it again and again - a change in limits from 50 to 30 for someone who 'spends half a day commuting' will have shag all effect on their commute times.
long commutes in dublin city are a result of heavy traffic, not of speed limits.
as mentioned, the *maximum* difference it can make on the 4km on the malahide road is *3 minutes*. THREE.

is_that_so · 03-06-2020 2:52pm

HartsHat wrote: »

You're moving at speed in a ton metal box.

It's all unnatural.

Ah the usual genius reply - killer cars.

Truthvader · 03-06-2020 2:53pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What planet do you live on? Sounds like logic from a Benny Hill sketch.

"An inconvenient truth" I know, to use a phrase that might resonate with you but every single person reading this who has not self deluded to shield them from their own disappointments will recognise it as a truth nonetheless

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 2:54pm

spurious wrote: »

It's cretinous.

'Proposal' like all the other whacko proposals.
Major shooting in foot by Greens going on.

It's not just Greens. The problem is councilors and TD's get elected filling planning objections. They won't stand for any major change in the way city is organized so they tweak minor bs.

Madeleine Birchfield · 03-06-2020 2:59pm

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not just Greens. The problem is councilors and TD's get elected filling planning objections. They won't stand for any major change in the way city is organized so they tweak minor bs.

If they were serious about cycling they would be completely redoing the roads in Dublin and investing in independent cycling infrastructure around the city to make them more like the Netherlands.

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 3:01pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

again - and i guess i'll say it again and again - a change in limits from 50 to 30 for someone who 'spends half a day commuting' will have shag all effect on their commute times.
long commutes in dublin city are a result of heavy traffic, not of speed limits.
as mentioned, the *maximum* difference it can make on the 4km on the malahide road is *3 minutes*. THREE.

Of course it won't have effect, people will drive exactly as they did before traffic allowing (it depends how many people will continue working from home but it could be traffic will actually increase because of limited public transport).

Genuine question does anyone actually think this is good enough from Dublin city council? In three months that's what they came up with...

is_that_so · 03-06-2020 3:03pm

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

If they were serious about cycling they would be completely redoing the roads in Dublin and investing in independent cycling infrastructure around the city to make them more like the Netherlands.

You mean like knock down most of the buildings in the city, narrow the river so we can fix the streets?

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 3:04pm

here's an anecdote, and you'll have to take my word on it being true. the summer before last, i spotted a car on east wall road on my way to work, and was still swapping places with it on leopardstown road maybe 20 or 30 minutes later.
i know it was the same car because what caught my eye about it was that it was an audi which had been badly painted in the most unfortunate shade of brown you can think of.

it was a summer morning, traffic was as light as you could expect in dublin at 7:30ish in the morning, so the car would definitely do better than usual, but it had little effect on my speed.
i was on a bicycle with a top speed of about 30km/h, and part of that route took in a significant uphill (newtownpark avenue) which would significantly favour the car.
yet i was still able to keep up in general with a car which was using several roads with a 50km/h top speed.

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 3:04pm

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

If they were serious about cycling they would be completely redoing the roads in Dublin and investing in independent cycling infrastructure around the city to make them more like the Netherlands.

Not just Netherlands. Budapest is choking in traffic and even they have infinitely pleasanter pedestrianized area around Danube. Here we are clapping that they lowered the limit to 30 where you can't drive more anyway because of congestion (and ignore the limit when you can).

is_that_so · 03-06-2020 3:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

again - and i guess i'll say it again and again - a change in limits from 50 to 30 for someone who 'spends half a day commuting' will have shag all effect on their commute times.
long commutes in dublin city are a result of heavy traffic, not of speed limits.
as mentioned, the *maximum* difference it can make on the 4km on the malahide road is *3 minutes*. THREE.

So a 20km, 30km, 40Km or 50km commute is only long because of heavy traffic?

meeeeh · 03-06-2020 3:08pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

here's an anecdote, and you'll have to take my word on it being true. the summer before last, i spotted a car on east wall road on my way to work, and was still swapping places with it on leopardstown road maybe 20 or 30 minutes later.
i know it was the same car because what caught my eye about it was that it was an audi which had been badly painted in the most unfortunate shade of brown you can think of.

it was a summer morning, traffic was as light as you could expect in dublin at 7:30ish in the morning, so the car would definitely do better than usual, but it had little effect on my speed.
i was on a bicycle with a top speed of about 30km/h, and part of that route took in a significant uphill (newtownpark avenue) which would significantly favour the car.
yet i was still able to keep up in general with a car which was using several roads with a 50km/h top speed.

So what exactly does 30 kph limit improve? Optics?

jams100 · 03-06-2020 3:18pm

What will happen now is that areas where a 30km/h limit is currently in place and makes sense will not be obeyed. Eg the quays, o,connell, dame Street etc.

Usual s**t from dcc. As someone who doesn't cycle why the f**k does it take them 4 years to build a cycle lane along the quays? Other cities would nearly build a metro in that time.

Our public transport is crap, and until the likes of metrolink, bus connects and dart underground are complete it will remain this way and look we all know these projects are going to get postponed again!

Putting a blanket 30km/h speed limit in place wont make people slow down (myself included and I am a safe driver). In several areas where 30km/h limits are put in place you have bikes overtaking you, now that doesn't make the speed limit wrong per say but the idea of just changing a few signs and hoping to save lives is a bit far fetched...we could go to extremes on everything in this case eg we could put people who attempt suicide into institutions forever.
If we want to save lives on roads then why not make seat belts on public transport mandatory, fix roads in bad condition, set up more drink driving checkpoints (in 6 years of driving I've not been breathalysed once) so many things that could be done but realistically are roads deaths are already quite low compared to Eu average, granted one death is one death to many my point is everything has to be weighed up and sensible changes made

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 3:20pm

is_that_so wrote: »

So a 20km, 30km, 40Km or 50km commute is only long because of heavy traffic?

they're not talking about imposing a 30km/h limit on the entire length of that 50km commute, you know.

Thelonious Monk · 03-06-2020 3:20pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And you are not irritating motorists, you are irritating people who live or work in Dublin and who between very poor transport options spend half a day commuting. Maybe some people are happy laughing at other people's misery but what does it matter if they are just as miserable themselves.

It's the people driving in Dublin holding up the rest of us who cycle or walk or take the bus. We need to crack down on private car journeys into the city centre as much as possible.

Seth Brundle · 03-06-2020 3:21pm

spurious wrote: »

It's cretinous.

'Proposal' like all the other whacko proposals.
Major shooting in foot by Greens going on.

Dublin city council has nine members from the Greens out of a total of sixty councillors.
So did the greens use a gun or how did they somehow manage to take control of DCC?
Or are you just posting nonsense?

The amount of whining on this thread is unreal.
People saying how this will be damaging to the economy whilst others saying how it will be ignored. Make up your mind FFS :rolleyes:

is_that_so · 03-06-2020 3:23pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

they're not talking about imposing a 30km/h limit on the entire length of that 50km commute, you know.

Your post suggests that it is the traffic density at the heart of it, it's not really. A long commute and long commuting time are not the same thing.

magicbastarder · 03-06-2020 3:24pm

jams100 wrote: »

Usual s**t from dcc. As someone who doesn't cycle why the f**k does it take them 4 years to build a cycle lane along the quays? Other cities would nearly build a metro in that time.

because of the volume of traffic along the quays, because the 'dublin city centre traders alliance' aka 'the multi storey car park owners club' are threatening them with legal action, etc.

the problem is that in general, the people who benefit most from the likes of a decent liffey cycle route are often not resident in the areas where the route would be located.
if i'm cycling in to the IFSC from dublin 15, i'm the one to benefit.
but my councillor won't give a toss about working for it, because it's not in his ward - hell, it's not even in his council; and a councillor based in say stoneybatter won't give a toss either because i can't vote for him or her, so there's no votes to be gained by putting infrastructure in for me.

A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

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