Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

CatInABox · 06-01-2020 6:38pm

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

You only refer to London-Birmingham which isn't the 'entire' project. With Phase2 of HS2 it equates to total of 330 miles. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

This project includes tearing (new) routes through many dozens ancient woodlands and green field sites, that road widening, upgrades and repairs wouldn't do to the same effect.

You're right, HS2 is actually 330 miles long, and will remove 58 hectares. That's actually a better "hectare removed per mile" than the 29 for 140 I gave earlier. Really puts that 9 hectares removed for 2.5 miles of road widening in perspective.

Of course, there's no way that they'd be able to deal with the projected growth in those regions without new roads as well as road upgrades, and those are a massive environmental catastrophe. As an example, the Lower Thames crossing project will remove 54 hectares of forest for a grand total of 14 miles. Replicate that up and down the HS2, because that's what's going to happen.

And it won't be just road widening, there'll be new roads as well, which is have horrific effects.

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-01-2020 7:21pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France. €200 Billion might not even be enough.

This is better blue sky thinking, the benefits of direct access to 1/2bn would pay for itself (at some stage). Perhaps they just need to wait for a better next gen drill to reduce costs. Bertha with her cutterhead diameter of 57.5 and 60 feet per day might be out of service/retired/broke.

Edit: Tuen Mun - Chek Lap Kok TBMis the latest biggest yoke, but is currently 50m underwater HK, doing some other boring stuff.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.

NI is whatever it (50.01%) choose to be according to the GFA, also by then 'New Alba' (Indie Scotia) will be good old buddies with Norway/EU, fly the braveheart DVD cover as their new flag, maybe even sport a new national anthem written by the Proclaimers (or BigCountry's self titled tune may suffice).

D.L.R. · 06-01-2020 7:33pm

This is an infrastructure thread, not a nationalist tub thumping thread.

Cheers.

santana75 · 06-01-2020 7:42pm

I'd buy some land and build a place for homeless people to stay/live for as long as they wished. The land would be used to grow crops which the people staying there could tend to and use to create meals for themselves. There'd be counselling, support and medical personnel but also classes in essential life skills. But mostly it would be a place where people where treated like human beings and they weren't rushed out the door as soon as possible.

Ubbquittious · 06-01-2020 7:48pm

Wild atlantic railway, covering the wild atlantic way from cork to donegal with a few tunnels under the sea to skip over peninsulas and the odd funicular here and there. It will run on turf

Zebra3 · 06-01-2020 10:17pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France.

€200 Billion might not even be enough.

Channel Tunnel is about 40km's and cost around €20Billion in todays money

Tunnel from Cork to Roscoff would be around 450km... I think we'd be short a few bob.

Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.
An NI Bridge and a hard border would be absolutely devastating to the economy of the south.

There’ll be no bridge to Scotland.

Cloud cuckoo land stuff.

the_syco · 07-01-2020 12:23am

Change the LUAS to something that can run on the DART line.

Another runway in Dublin airport.

Convert the HP plant in Leixlip into a hospital.

Ubbquittious · 07-01-2020 12:32am

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

mickdoocey · 07-01-2020 12:36am

I am sure it has been posted already, but pay off the national debt and if anything left invest in the defense forces.

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 12:43am

Zebra3 wrote: »

There’ll be no bridge to Scotland.

Cloud cuckoo land stuff.

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

CatInABox · 07-01-2020 8:04am

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

Despite supporting the greenway down there, I'd actually build the western rail corridor too, except I wouldn't run it on the existing alignment,I'd make it actually useful by running it through the areas that people live and want to go to instead of empty countryside.

Ulysses Gaze · 07-01-2020 8:23am

Most of the above mentioned and build a Nuclear power plant for power needs.

kilns · 07-01-2020 9:40am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

In fairness, Switzerland is a country with a historical policy of centralising nothing. Each canton has its own different laws and even languages. Most countries our size have one pretty large city compared to the rest.

Serbia, Greece, Denmark,Finland, Norway, Czechia, Austria etc. all have major cities far larger than the next few cities in their country combined.Even France and the UK are in the same situation.

Countries like Spain and Germany are more spread out, but like Switzerland that's due to a long history of strong subdivisions with nation-like identities. Ireland has never had this.

I agree, however it is a model which should be looked at I still think. When you pay taxes you pay federal, Kantonal and Gemeinde tax. Each cent paid goes to the entity it is paid for, so for example you pay Gemeinde tax and that goes into your local gemiende which usually is your town and you can see you tax at work. This way the tax goes to where it is intended.

Each Kanton looks after itself essentially and makes its own laws, taxes etc so if a county like Kerry wants to elect gombeens like the Healy Raes then let them but they will only affect Kerry and not the the national interest.

But it also comes down to the greater good in many way, the Swiss will take the tough decisions if it benefits the country and its ecomony (for example the vote to increase the amount of holidays was defeated as it was believed the country would become unproductive can you imagine Irelands vote on that). I am afraid to say Irish people are selfish by nature and are very short sighted they want every thing now and dont want to pay for it

Dots1982 · 07-01-2020 3:05pm

mickdoocey wrote: »

I am sure it has been posted already, but pay off the national debt and if anything left invest in the defense forces.

Can you explain why you think having a more well resources army would make Ireland a better place?

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 3:25pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

Hey if it's coming out of your money then you do what you like ... Seems a bit petty .. but when your personal line runs out of money just to run it they'll convert it to the "f**k the Greenway ,Greenway " after its abandoned anyway , giving all involved a good laugh ...

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 3:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

Spoilsport.... The Boris bridge is already in the que ,right after the high speed rail link to Scotland . (Which might make some sense ,except hs2 and hs 3 to Manchester are already estimated to cost over 100 billion )

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 4:02pm

[

Markcheese wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

Spoilsport.... The Boris bridge is already in the que ,right after the high speed rail link to Scotland . (Which might make some sense ,except hs2 and hs 3 to Manchester are already estimated to cost over 100 billion )

Spoilsport - maybe.

HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland - it is a big place and Stranraer is a good way from the border - 2 hours by car to Gretna Green. I cannot see any such bridge being built this century - if ever. I think teleporting will be more likely.

Perhaps a floating tunnel might be a better idea, but a 40 km tunnel would be some trick - too long for vehicles as it would require ventilation.

More likely is one going from Rosslare to the Welsh coast using artificial islands as there are sandbanks there. Or possible Dublin to Holyhead, as at least there would be traffic that way. Oh, wait - there is Brexit on the way, so where would the checks be?

riddlinrussell · 07-01-2020 5:43pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Despite supporting the greenway down there, I'd actually build the western rail corridor too, except I wouldn't run it on the existing alignment,I'd make it actually useful by running it through the areas that people live and want to go to instead of empty countryside.

Yeah my money would go to fresh alignments making rail travel viable in Ireland, and if theres €3-400m left at the end then all the old alignments will get a nice eco viable surface put down for walking and cycling. Plus all the other greenways getting funding, oh and if I can somehow use some of the money to force planners to reject plans without adequate cycling and walking provision that would be great.

D.L.R. · 07-01-2020 7:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland

Central Belt, obvs.

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 7:43pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Central Belt, obvs.

But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

Beta Ray Bill · 07-01-2020 8:27pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is an infrastructure thread, not a nationalist tub thumping thread.

Cheers.

Sam Russell wrote: »

But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK

It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales

NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.

In terms of the Dyke, no one has actually mapped out what's down there.
Ammo is usually steel, it's been down there for almost 80 years at this point, most of it has probably corroded away, especially if it's in mud.
They wont know until they go down and have look.
And even then they only need to clear the patch where the bridge will be.

The main thing stopping it being built is that it would require 30 pillars to support the bridge, the longest being 1400m (Note: Burj Khalifa is 830m)
Technically it could be done though, we already have natural gas platforms that are 500m

Other issue is the weather

D.L.R. · 07-01-2020 8:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

Obviously you'd take a branch off the HS London mainline. But they're proposing road, not rail.

4068ac1elhodqr · 07-01-2020 9:42pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK
It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales
NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.

Agree it would be real pain to build (if even possible), and the weather would mean very regular closures.

While it may be built/started under a UK Boris-plan, it could well (later) become a bridge of a broken union (Indie Scotland) and a soft Ire goods border. It's likely goods will have a softer approach, than services for export.

A 28mile fast crossing could well mean easier exports from Dub to the 2m+ population of Scots central belt area. An Indie Scot could well match the current exports from ROI to NI (worth about €1.7bn pa).

Zebra3 · 08-01-2020 1:55am

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

See the proposed bridge is not for overall infra between Ireland and the UK

It's for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales

NI will benefit huge from it, especially if there is a hard border.
South, not so much, even less if there is a hard border.

In terms of the Dyke, no one has actually mapped out what's down there.
Ammo is usually steel, it's been down there for almost 80 years at this point, most of it has probably corroded away, especially if it's in mud.
They wont know until they go down and have look.
And even then they only need to clear the patch where the bridge will be.

The main thing stopping it being built is that it would require 30 pillars to support the bridge, the longest being 1400m (Note: Burj Khalifa is 830m)
Technically it could be done though, we already have natural gas platforms that are 500m

Other issue is the weather

NI would benefit far more with £20bn invested within the six counties as opposed to this proposed bridge.

But Johnson is behind it, the man who said he'd lie down in front of the bulldozers at Heathrow.

A compulsive liar.

Scolionophobia · 08-01-2020 1:59am

20bn - Service the national debt

40bn - Rail / Cycling infrastructure
Get Dart Underground and Metro North expedited and completed within 5 years.
2 more Luas lines for Dublin.
1 more Metro for Dublin
Luas for Cork, Limerick, Galway
Upgrade lines between Irish cities to halve journey times.
Use what’s left over to upgrade cycling infrastructure to the standard of Dutch cities.

40bn - Roads
Dublin outer loop that starts north of Swords, goes through Dunboyne and reconnects with the M50 at Marley Park
A Leinster outer loop stat starts north of Drogheda and ends in Wexford
Every other project in the pipeline, Galway bypass, Cork to Limerick.
Whatever’s left over should be used to build a road network that would accommodate an Irish population of 20,000,000. Or at the very least CPO all land needed for a road network that would accommodate 20,000,000.

60bn - Renewable energy
A massive number of offshore wind turbines
Storage: 2 days of average national energy use

40bn - Housing development
Build multiple planned towns with housing, school, shops, access to good public transport.

Markcheese · 08-01-2020 10:13am

Sam Russell wrote: »

But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

I don't think that's going to make much difference to the proposed bridge ...

Sam Russell · 08-01-2020 1:34pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I don't think that's going to make much difference to the proposed bridge ...

If you mean it is vapour-ware, then yes.

Lord Fairlord · 08-01-2020 4:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

[

Spoilsport - maybe.

HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland - it is a big place and Stranraer is a good way from the border - 2 hours by car to Gretna Green. I cannot see any such bridge being built this century - if ever. I think teleporting will be more likely.

Perhaps a floating tunnel might be a better idea, but a 40 km tunnel would be some trick - too long for vehicles as it would require ventilation.

More likely is one going from Rosslare to the Welsh coast using artificial islands as there are sandbanks there. Or possible Dublin to Holyhead, as at least there would be traffic that way. Oh, wait - there is Brexit on the way, so where would the checks be?

If there is to ever be a fixed connection from Ireland to Britain it should be to Wales. A tunnel with artificial islands for ventilation IMO. It'd probably have to be to north Wales as south Wales has plenty of rail traffic as is. It'll not happen anytime soon I'd imagine as the cost would presumably be astronomical.

Lord Fairlord · 08-01-2020 4:54pm

Scolionophobia wrote: »

20bn - Service the national debt

40bn - Rail / Cycling infrastructure
Get Dart Underground and Metro North expedited and completed within 5 years.
2 more Luas lines for Dublin.
1 more Metro for Dublin
Luas for Cork, Limerick, Galway
Upgrade lines between Irish cities to halve journey times.
Use what’s left over to upgrade cycling infrastructure to the standard of Dutch cities.

40bn - Roads
Dublin outer loop that starts north of Swords, goes through Dunboyne and reconnects with the M50 at Marley Park
A Leinster outer loop stat starts north of Drogheda and ends in Wexford
Every other project in the pipeline, Galway bypass, Cork to Limerick.
Whatever’s left over should be used to build a road network that would accommodate an Irish population of 20,000,000. Or at the very least CPO all land needed for a road network that would accommodate 20,000,000.

60bn - Renewable energy
A massive number of offshore wind turbines
Storage: 2 days of average national energy use

40bn - Housing development
Build multiple planned towns with housing, school, shops, access to good public transport.

What would be your two new Dublin Luas lines?

CrabRevolution · 08-01-2020 8:32pm

dev92c wrote: »

I’d put 150 billion into a united Ireland fund so we can handle post-reunification infrastructure projects once the border poll passes.

I’d put the other 50 billion into extending the M2 from Ashbourne to Ardee, the M4 from Mullingar to Sligo and the M7 from Naas to a new Junction 8 on the M50 as per original plans.

50 Billion?! Are these roads to be paved with gold?

Scolionophobia · 09-01-2020 1:13am

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

What would be your two new Dublin Luas lines?

Whatever routes there's the best case for. I'd guess one line north west towards Blanchardstown and another one towards Tallaght.

snotboogie · 09-01-2020 2:04am

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

The Cork 124,391(at 2016) had an overnight 'x5 area increase' in extension size.
.

Those are city council boundaries, which were drawn up to satisfy political rather demographic demands. The Cork Urban area was 210k in the 2016 census as defined by the CSO, which is the best representation of the actual city population we have. Confusingly the new 2018 city council area has a very similar population but the boundaries are completely different to those defined by the CSO. The old city council area you reference excludes large contiguous suburbs like Douglas, Frankfield, Grange and Rochestown, which is an absolute nonsense. The population of Cork, or what is Cork City, is always going to be hard to define because of the aforementioned council issues (not present in Dublin because the plethora of urban councils makes the city council patently ridiculous to use for population purposes or in Limerick because of the single council in the county) and the fact that there are two primary economic hubs driving the region, one being the city centre and the other being the harbour area and working out how these hubs, their suburbs and commuter towns integrate is not something anyone has really defined.

As for the question in the OP, I'd do everything to encourage urhan living by building what may seem like absurd public transport options.

I'd go full Singapore in Dublin. 7 or 8 metro lines covering the city along with 3 new Luas lines.

In Cork I'd build the Ballincollig-Mahon Metro and an Airport-Douglas-Blackpool metro via the city centre and docklands.

Limerick and Galway would get a Luas. Busconnects would be rolled out across

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

Ring roads would need to be completed in Galway and Cork. Other than the M20 and possibly the M24 and M25 I wouldn't be too interested in further connecting our cities with motorways. I'd upgrade all intercity rail and look at a direct Limerick Cork link.

LaFuton · 09-01-2020 2:19am

irish space program

MoashoaM · 09-01-2020 2:31am

Railways - High speed for all mainlines, Reinstate a few old lines, double track currently single track lines.

Cycling - Construct bicycle corridors from scratch instead of pulling up rails, all new roads to have separated cycle lanes and dutch junctions.

Parks - Expand the current parks initiative to create more protected land in more counties for social and ecological welfare.

Canals - I don't know what the story is with Ireland's canals, but I envy the Dutch and English in their use of theirs. Build some new canals for a bigger network I guess.

riddlinrussell · 09-01-2020 1:09pm

MoashoaM wrote: »

Railways - High speed for all mainlines, Reinstate a few old lines, double track currently single track lines.

Cycling - Construct bicycle corridors from scratch instead of pulling up rails, all new roads to have separated cycle lanes and dutch junctions.

Parks - Expand the current parks initiative to create more protected land in more counties for social and ecological welfare.

Canals - I don't know what the story is with Ireland's canals, but I envy the Dutch and English in their use of theirs. Build some new canals for a bigger network I guess.

I absolutely love the canals we have, but barring 'route updates' (a la shannon erne waterway) for the Ulster canal and Lagan Navigation etc I cant see a justification for actually building new ones, a full update and refurbishment of ALL the canals and their branches would suffice.
Cycle and rail priorities I think you should be reversing with this much money, Construct high speed rail corridors from scratch, cycleways on all the old meandering lines that don't connect population centres efficiently

MoashoaM · 09-01-2020 3:54pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Cycle and rail priorities I think you should be reversing with this much money, Construct high speed rail corridors from scratch, cycleways on all the old meandering lines that don't connect population centres efficiently

agreed

4068ac1elhodqr · 09-01-2020 4:08pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Those are city council boundaries, which were drawn up to satisfy political and economic rather than demographic demands, both councils want rents over people and the Celtic Tiger doughnut business park development around the city along with the Pharma in the harbour gave both councils plenty to fight over and eventually compromise on when the border was redrawn. The Cork Urban Area had a population of 210k in the 2016 census as defined by the CSO, which is the best representation of the actual city population we have.

Even if the Cork (city) population 120k, was increased in 2016, to include the Cork 'Urban Area' up to 208k (to satisfy political and economic needs), it still remains approx 1/3rd the size of the Belfast in general and relative terms.

e.g. (Back at 2001 census): Belfast City 280k, Belfast 'Urban Area' of 579,276 and the Belfast metropolitan area, calculated later at 2011 was 672,522.

So in an UI type infrastructure view, Dub-Bel rail route should be the main route to upgrade. There are also 3 large large towns (of 30k each) on the route DHA/DDK/NWY within 105km, then even larger towns of Craigavon area 60k, Lisburn City 45k, before that current train route ends just past Bel, at Bangor 60k.

Total urban catchement of 834,000 folks on that line.

snotboogie · 09-01-2020 4:18pm

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Even if the Cork (city) population 120k, was increased in 2016, to include the Cork 'Urban Area' up to 208k (to satisfy political and economic needs), it still remains approx 1/3rd the size of the Belfast in general and relative terms.

e.g. (Back at 2001 census): Belfast City 280k, Belfast 'Urban Area' of 579,276 and the Belfast metropolitan area, calculated later at 2011 was 672,522.

So in an UI type infrastructure view, Dub-Bel rail route should be the main route to upgrade. There are also 3 large large towns (of 30k each) on the route DHA/DDK/NWY within 105km, then even larger towns of Craigavon area 60k, Lisburn City 45k, before that current train route ends just past Bel, at Bangor 60k.

Total urban catchement of 834,000 folks on that line.

You missed the entire point of my post. The city council was not upgraded to include the urban area, the council boundary areas in the Republic are political and should not be used to measure demographics. The fact that the CSO defined Urban Area population and the City Council population are similar is mostly a coincidence, the boundaries are completely different. My point is that the best measure we have for the population of Cork City is the 210k figure from the CSO.

Belfast is clearly bigger than Cork but you should use the right figure for comparison. The 125k figure is an utter nonsense.

bk · 09-01-2020 6:59pm

Yes city and county boundaries are terrible ways to look at demographics for infrastructure planning. They exist for historic reasons rather then reflecting reality.

Metropolitan population is the best way to look at these things. Basically the city and it's surrounding suburbs and commuter towns from which people commute into the city for work, education, etc.

Cork Metro Population: 305,222 (2016)
Belfast Metro Population: 675,522 (2011)

Belfast is certainly larger, over twice as large, but not three times.

Interestingly their is a theory that holds out that in most countries, the 2nd largest city has roughly half the metro population as the largest city and the 3rd city has half the 2nd city.

That obviously doesn't play out in Dublin v Cork, but if you were to include Belfast under say a united Ireland, then it Dublin - Belfast - Cork populations almost perfectly match this theory.

hans aus dtschl · 13-01-2020 1:21pm

snotboogie wrote: »

You missed the entire point of my post. The city council was not upgraded to include the urban area, the council boundary areas in the Republic are political and should not be used to measure demographics. The fact that the CSO defined Urban Area population and the City Council population are similar is mostly a coincidence, the boundaries are completely different. My point is that the best measure we have for the population of Cork City is the 210k figure from the CSO.

Belfast is clearly bigger than Cork but you should use the right figure for comparison. The 125k figure is an utter nonsense.

You're making the same point I was making a few pages back: Cork has approx 200k people. It's just a numbers thing, but I don't think it affects their overall point tbf

Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

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