The Hazards of Belief

robindch · 10-01-2017 1:31pm

looksee wrote: »

It is possible to be 'triggered' -- I had a situation where an emotional 'trigger' sparked a pre-existing condition and put me in hospital, to my surprise. I am not a 'fragile' personality but I was under a considerable amount of stress for various reasons and a chance and entirely innocent comment by someone set up an astonishing instant link in my thoughts and tripped a heart condition, all within a few moments. It had never happened before and has not happened since, but it was a very strange sensation.

Interesting and surprising (and a little shocking).

What you're describing seems similar to descriptions of post traumatic stress disorder. Do you feel that this comparison is appropriate?

looksee · 10-01-2017 2:56pm

robindch wrote: »

Interesting and surprising (and a little shocking).

What you're describing seems similar to descriptions of post traumatic stress disorder. Do you feel that this comparison is appropriate?

I don't know, it is possible I suppose. It was all extremely complicated but it 'warned' me and I (and time and events) have dealt with it to an extent that I doubt it would happen again. I think actual ptsd would not be as controllable.

Peregrinus · 11-01-2017 2:36am

robindch wrote: »

Interesting and surprising (and a little shocking).

What you're describing seems similar to descriptions of post traumatic stress disorder. Do you feel that this comparison is appropriate?

Triggering is a common manifestation of PTSD. Which is not to say that everyone who suffers from PTSD can be triggered, or that everyone who experiences triggering has suffered PTSD. But there is a definite correlation, and incidences of triggering are one of the things psychiatrists look for when considering a diagnosis of PTSD.

I suspect what's going on here is that many people think (and are encouraged to think) that many (or all) people who say they are "triggered" are merely feeling uncomfortable emotions. And I also suspect it's possible that some people who feel uncomfortable use the term "triggered" to describe this, in much the way that some people who don't have what clinicians would categorise as an allergy use "allergic" to describe their reactions to something.

But, yeah, triggering is a real thing and, yes, it is associated with PTSD.

TheChizler · 11-01-2017 1:26pm

Oops should have said I'm aware of the psychological use, by concept I meant the trivial way it's used recently, normally meaning causing someone to be uncomfortable.

silverharp · 11-01-2017 5:38pm

I Don't know if this can be classes as an Ecumenical matter but its kind of amusing

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/bishop.michael.nazir.ali.condemns.koran.reading.at.anglican.cathedral.epiphany.service/103716.htm

Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali Condemns Koran Reading At Anglican Cathedral Epiphany Service

Christians are familiar with the Bible texts that detail the conception and birth of Jesus to His mother, the Virgin Mary.

But they are not so used to hearing the Muslim version of the story read out in church. And especially not on Epiphany, which celebrates the incarnation of God as His son Jesus - a doctrine denied by Muslims.

Michael Nazir-Ali, a leading evangelical Christian in Britain, has now condemned the reading on a service at the Scottish Episcopal Church's Glasgow Cathedral last Friday.

The congregation at St Mary's cathedral heard the Muslim version of the Virgin Mary's conception of Jesus, from the Koran's Sura 19, sung by Madinah Javed. The passage explains how Mary gave birth after an angel told her God would give her a child.

Sura 19 states that Mary was "ashamed" after she gave birth, and that the infant Jesus miraculously spoke to her from his crib and claimed he was "a servant of God".

It denies Jesus was the Son of God.

A post on the cathedral's Facebook page describes the service as a "wonderful event".

It ays: "The congregation was also reminded during the service that it is not only Christians who give honour to Jesus. We were joined by friends from two local Muslim communities." The post also shares a video of the recitation.

But Nazir-Ali, former Bishop of Rochester condemned the reading and called for discipline against those involved.

"The authorities of the Scottish Episcopal Church should immediately repudiate this ill-advised invitation," he said in a statement.

He also called for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, to publicly distance the Church of England and the wider Anglican Communion from the event.

" Christians should know what their fellow citizens believe and this can include reading the Qur'an for themselves, whether in the original or in translation. This is not, however, the same thing as having it read in Church in the context of public worship," he said.

"It is particularly insensitive to have this passage read in Church on the Feast of the Epiphany when we celebrate not only Christ's manifestation to the gentiles but also his baptism and the divine declaration, 'you are my beloved son in whom I am well pleased'."

recedite · 11-01-2017 9:26pm

The fact that Nazir Ali is a Pakistani adds extra irony to it

I'm sure those that supported bringing a little bit of Islam into the church felt quite smug afterwards, with that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that they are among the most super-tolerant of liberal multiculturalists. Unlike that Pakistani guy.

silverharp · 12-01-2017 9:40am

recedite wrote: »

The fact that Nazir Ali is a Pakistani adds extra irony to it
I'm sure those that supported bringing a little bit of Islam into the church felt quite smug afterwards, with that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that they are among the most super-tolerant of liberal multiculturalists. Unlike that Pakistani guy.

the zeal of a convert?

recedite · 14-01-2017 7:49pm

silverharp wrote: »

the zeal of a convert?

Or just somebody who actually knows what Sharia and Islam are all about, and had hoped he had got away from them.

robindch · 16-01-2017 2:06pm

Yesterday, NetFlix released a new documentary named "Hostage to the Devil" about the Kerry priest, author and prominent exorcist, Malachi Martin:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/i-have-smelt-the-breath-of-satan-the-story-of-a-co-kerry-exorcist-1.2936003

Anybody seen it/have plans to see it?

recedite · 16-01-2017 2:33pm

robindch wrote: »

Anybody seen it/have plans to see it?

Not really, but the guy himself was an interesting character, and wrote the original book.
One thing the RCC was good at was picking out an intelligent kid from a relatively banal or farming background and propelling them into an international academic world. De Valera also benefited from this process.

So Martin was tutored in theology, philosophy, several languages and archaeology by the Jesuits, and was sent to exotic locations.

He seems to have realised that poverty and chastity were not the top priorities for some at the top of the RCC hierarchy. I suspect that in 1965 he outgrew the priesthood. He became a dishwasher, at first, but obviously that was not a sufficiently interesting career for this guy, and he had something else in mind.
Once a priest, always a priest; the magical process cannot be reversed. However, Martin seems to have worked out a way to use Canon Law within the system in such a way that he could be his own man, retaining certain advantages of being a priest while ditching the disadvantages.

Thus he officially withdrew from all normal duties, vows of poverty, and vows of obedience to the Jesuit order. It seems he had realised that withdrawing from vows of chastity was not actually necessary, provided that discretion was observed. At this point he was free to embark on a lucrative new career, relieving wealthy Americans of their excess money...

silverharp · 16-01-2017 3:52pm

Hazard of non belief

via @faisalalmutar

http://www.faisalalmutar.com/2017/01/16/iraqi-college-student-kicked-out-of-university-for-defending-the-right-for-atheists-to-live/

An Iraqi student in Al Muthanna university got expelled because of a Facebook comment in which he defended the right of life for atheists.His name is Sameer Saad.

The following is his story:

“My unfair treatment in Al Muthanna university
Sameer Saad – IraqAfter a month of trying finally Al Muthanna university issued an order to expel me and consider that I failed this year (2016-2017)
The case is all about an argument on Facebook
There is a page founded and run by a colleague in the same university, the page posted a discussion about atheism and most of the comments were negative and promoting violent actions towards atheists.

Among the commentators who promoted violence was a person with a (Dr.) before his name referring that he has a PHD, I told him that his opinion is not suitable for a person with high degree or even any education and that provoked him and it turned out that he is among the teaching staff of my university.

At first the university expelled me for lack of attendance because of the efforts that he pulled to make that happens, after I showed them the proper papers that proves that the don’t have the right to do so the dean of my college told me that it`s not over yet and that there will be formed what is so called the “committee of disciplines” to find the proper punishment for me for saying that man is not worthy of his degree.

I was asked to go for the committee meeting and I was surprised that it had only one member who was also from the teaching class, he asked to write down the story on a paper and I did so, without even looking at my paper he started to write his report and the one man committee decision was to expel me and to give me an F in all my classes.

I did nothing wrong and saying my opinion is supposed to be a right protected by the law , I don`t deserve this and there is no one who can stand by me.”

The post in Arabic :

http://bit.ly/2itgwuC

Please Contact to protest the decision:

Minster of Higher Education Email: ministery_office@mohesr.gov.iq

Ministry of Higher Education Email: info@mohesr.gov.iq

University Email For Inquiries:

info@uoalmuthana.edu.iq

robindch · 16-01-2017 7:00pm

Pope Frank runs into trouble with the Knights of Malta.

Condom trouble.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/knights-of-malta-condom-scandal-stretches-from-myanmar-to-the-vatican

recedite · 16-01-2017 7:46pm

Its a few hundred years since the Knights of Malta last exposed their unsheathed swords.

I see they have invoked their micky mouse "sovereign state" status to frustrate attempts by the Holy See to investigate things.
Good call. They learned from the pros.

When asked about the specific failings of the Vatican, the minister said: ''It (the Vatican) failed to co-operate with the Murphy Commission, failed to provide information readily available to it with regard to the abuse of children in both the Dublin diocese and subsequently the Cloyne diocese.
''And because a request for information was made directly by the Murphy Commission, (the Vatican) used the diplomatic ploy of refusing to deal with the matter because the request hadn't come through the Department of Foreign Affairs when it couldn't have done so because the Murphy Commission was independent of Government."

Hotblack Desiato · 16-01-2017 8:57pm

silverharp wrote: »

Hazard of non belief

Presumably all concerned are muslims.

If you publicly stated that a member of your western university's faculty was not worthy of holding his degree, would there be a sanction?

robindch · 17-01-2017 5:16pm

Pope Francis, in summary: "If youze christians do-a da talk, but don't walk-a da walk, then youze nothing more than parrots"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-catholic-church-no-point-if-you-dont-believe-in-it-help-the-poor-christian-parrots-a7529631.html

Hotblack Desiato · 18-01-2017 1:48am

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis, in summary: "If youze christians do-a da talk, but don't walk-a da walk, then youze nothing more than parrots"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-catholic-church-no-point-if-you-dont-believe-in-it-help-the-poor-christian-parrots-a7529631.html

The Irish bishops are going to disinvite him at this rate!

"He said what? Jaysus, that's all we need, the collection is down 20% this year as it is..."

Jan_de_Bakker · 12-02-2017 11:47pm

So I was going to open a thread on this but maybe best just to post here.
A few years back my wife found out her brother had gotten into the Evangelists
really heavily - he had just split up with his girlfriend and his business was failing.
Anyway, he´s doing well now all debts paid off and working in a new job - he seems to
be over the break up too.
But he´s *really* into this Evangelist stuff now - a real bible basher.
I wouldn´t mind if he kept it personal - and he has been mostly but lately
hes inviting us to these barbeques or other events associated with
the church.
He´s also started giving us bibles and religious bookmarks, calendars etc...
We have 2 kids and seems like he is trying to spread the word.

Today my wife was talking to him and we couldn't believe how committed he is to it -
apparently we are going to hell - for not believing - he said why would God welcome
us into eternity if we don't believe in him ?
He seemed genuinely offended when my wife told him she doesn't believe in God - at least
not the man made organised religion kind of God.

Tried explaining that why would we go to hell when we are good people, why would such a powerful
being be so petty ? - NO .. it´s Gods word and thats that ... the Bible is the word of God
not of men ..

He was shocked that we "believed" in evolution - he then showed complete ignorance of evolution like
"How come a monkey doesn't have a human baby .... how could the eye form by pure chance .... ¨
Forgot to explain the whole shared ancestor thing but I don't think there would be much point.

Also he has conversations with God every day - I mean if he said this about Julios Ceaser or Shakespeare
he would be classed as mentally ill...

I feel bad for the guy because someone has manipulated him into believing this drivel (he wasn´t religious
untill he has about 30 or so..) they got him at a vulnerable time etc.

At the same time, he isn't doing that much harm - allthough we may have problems if he starts trying to preach
to the kids ... lets see..

I was thinking of getting a copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins - but that would be hitting it with a sledgehammer
the same as convincing me to read the bible and take it seriously.. my wife thinks the only way to get him out
is by talking to someone else who was in it in the past and has since got out.

Anyway, was just thinking of it being a good example of a hazard of belief.

Too many people think religion is harmless - I actually think at this stage he would be afraid to leave, he is convinced
of Hells existence.

Peregrinus · 13-02-2017 2:20am

What exactly is the hazard here? Since embracing evangelical Christianity, he's got a new job, paid off his debts and recovered from a bad breakup. There are not exactly hazards, are they? His new faith doesn't seem to stop him beinng functional, happy and successful. He may be profoundly ignorant about evolution, but most of us are profoundly ignorant about many things; unless this is knowledge that we need to live happily, form solid relationships, etc, that kind of ignorance isn't hazardous. Lots of atheists are profoundly ignorant of, or misinformed about, Christianity; do you consider that hazardous? I don't.

OK, he believes stuff that you don't believe, and I don't believe. But I'm not arrogant enough to define that as "hazardous".

Pawwed Rig · 13-02-2017 9:14am

Agree with previous post. Some people need a crutch in life and his is wacky religion. If it was alcohol that would be very normal and acceptable in this country for some reason.

Jan_de_Bakker · 13-02-2017 10:18am

Yes these are some positive things, but the fact that he has conversations with an imaginary friend and is insisting his sister will burn in agony for all eternity tells me there is also an unhealthy side.

Also he is over the breakup now and has a new job - time to drop the nonsense or at least not take it so seriously.

Jan_de_Bakker · 13-02-2017 12:04pm

robindch wrote: »

A mother describes losing her son to ISIS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37973246

Very sad, but I wonder what responsibility she should take, she became a Muslim - she obviously indoctrinated her child in the religion - the 1st step here.

recedite · 13-02-2017 9:16pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

What exactly is the hazard here?

One hazard is that the religion is driving a wedge between him and his friends/family. This is a very typical hazard of cults and religious fundamentalism.
Another is that its hard to get out of. Again fairly typical. In this case the fear of burning in hellfire seems to be exerting a powerful psychological influence. So much so, that he's being a bit of a pain in the ass by going around to his family and telling/threatening them about what lies in store for them if they don't repent.

As for business, well we don't know whether the improvement in that had anything to do with his new found religion, or whether it was just the general recession at the time was coming to an end.

Also we don't know how much of the money he is making now gets syphoned off into this church.

Peregrinus · 14-02-2017 2:22am

recedite wrote: »

One hazard is that the religion is driving a wedge between him and his friends/family. This is a very typical hazard of cults and religious fundamentalism.

Nothing in Jan's posts suggest that there is a wedge being driven between this bloke and his family. They have inconsistent beliefs, obviously, but there is no suggestion that this is leading to a breakdown in functional relationships.

And, if there is a breakdown, that may be not so much a hazard of his belief, as a hazard of his family's unwillingness to accept and respect his right to form, express and live by his own beliefs.

recedite wrote: »

Another is that its hard to get out of. Again fairly typical. In this case the fear of burning in hellfire seems to be exerting a powerful psychological influence. So much so, that he's being a bit of a pain in the ass by going around to his family and telling/threatening them about what lies in store for them if they don't repent.

I can see why this is annoying to them, but I don't see why it's a hazard to him. As for being "hard to get out of", that can be the case with controlling religious cults, but there's no suggestion in Jan's post that this is such a cult. And, on the evidence, fervent evangelical Christianity isn't generally hard to leave; there are far more people who used to be fervent evangelical Christians than who currently are, and studies suggest it has a high "lapse" rate.

recedite wrote: »

As for business, well we don't know whether the improvement in that had anything to do with his new found religion, or whether it was just the general recession at the time was coming to an end.

I didn't say his religion contributed to his professional success; I don't know whether it did or not. But it's clearly not impeding his professional success; he is functioning successfully in employment/career terms. So, no evidence of hazard there, then.

recedite wrote: »

Also we don't know how much of the money he is making now gets syphoned off into this church.

Your ignorance on this point may be annoying to you, but it's hardly a hazard to him!

robindch · 14-02-2017 2:39pm

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Very sad, but I wonder what responsibility she should take, she became a Muslim - she obviously indoctrinated her child in the religion - the 1st step here.

Yes, but is it worth pointing that out to her, or to other converts, or to the wider islamic and other religious communities?

In cases like this, people seem to prefer to lay the blame at the feet of the dead terrorist and an "incorrect interpretation" - rather than having to face a still-living mother or a still-living religion.

Pawwed Rig · 14-02-2017 3:20pm

I actually have a bit of sympathy for this guy. He would have been an outsider in every facet of his life. It might be understandable that he may have been a bit more into it than others if he thought he had to prove himself.

silverharp · 15-02-2017 12:23pm

robindch wrote: »

Yes, but is it worth pointing that out to her, or to other converts, or to the wider islamic and other religious communities?

In cases like this, people seem to prefer to lay the blame at the feet of the dead terrorist and an "incorrect interpretation" - rather than having to face a still-living mother or a still-living religion.

I must say in her case she appeared to be a good egg, she was working to keep extremism out of schools so I don't think she deserves any blame as such.

Going forward I wouldn't be adverse to using the argument against potential converts though. Its clear that Islam is a religion and a political philosophy and those ideas can have consequences.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 4:01am

silverharp wrote: »

Going forward I wouldn't be adverse to using the argument against potential converts though. Its clear that Islam is a religion and a political philosophy and those ideas can have consequences.

But the same could be said of any political philosophy. Hideous things have been done in the name of republicanism, in the name of independence, in the name of democracy, in the name of reason. I don't think the lesson can be that we should counsel people against republicanism, democracy, independence or rationalism; it's surely that we should counsel people against allowing ideology to lead them into doing hideous things.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 7:47am

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the same could be said of any political philosophy. Hideous things have been done in the name of republicanism, in the name of independence, in the name of democracy, in the name of reason. I don't think the lesson can be that we should counsel people against republicanism, democracy, independence or rationalism; it's surely that we should counsel people against allowing ideology to lead them into doing hideous things.

I'd have a different approach to one of my kids saying they want to be a democrat versus one of them saying they want to be a Muslim :pac:

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 8:27am

As would I.

But that may tell you more about us than it does about democracy or Islam. The fact is that those claiming to be democrats have killed a lot more people that those claiming to be Muslims.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 9:18am

Peregrinus wrote: »

As would I.

But that may tell you more about us than it does about democracy or Islam. The fact is that those claiming to be democrats have killed a lot more people that those claiming to be Muslims.

take the example of Khalid Kelly , any other religion and he would be alive today so on a personal level I see a distinction . lets say one of my kids says they like Marxism, I'd have a but of fun with it, chances are theyd grow out of it and wouldnt do anymore than go to some silly marches. Islam would be a different kettle of fish entirely, buddhism would be fine, Catholicism well better the devil you know, happy clappy evangelical would be a bit roll eyes....
zooming out the microscope to say that everything is the same as everything else isnt the point.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 9:25am

Well, you know your kids better than I do, silverharp, and if you think that one of them might become a terrorist if he converted to Islam obviously that's a serious issue but - no offence - your problem in that situation wouldn't really be Islam, would it? A generation ago terrorism was being perpetrated by middle-class European kids who had embraced particular forms of marxism; a generation before that it was people who had embraced particular forms of nationalism; right now its particular forms of Islam; in a generation's time it will be particular forms of some other ideology which usually plays out in more benign ways.

Seriously, silverharp, the problem here is not the particular ideology which happens to be the fashion du jour for those who are impelled to violence.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 9:39am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, you know your kids better than I do, silverharp, and if you think that one of them might become a terrorist if he converted to Islam obviously that's a serious issue but - no offence - your problem in that situation wouldn't really be Islam, would it? A generation ago terrorism was being perpetrated by middle-class European kids who had embraced particular forms of marxism; a generation before that it was people who had embraced particular forms of nationalism; right now its particular forms of Islam; in a generation's time it will be particular forms of some other ideology which usually plays out in more benign ways.

Seriously, silverharp, the problem here is not the particular ideology which happens to be the fashion du jour for those who are impelled to violence.

while du jour might be true most ideologies go away after some political reform or economic changes, religion is a stickier thing and I dont see Islam going away any time soon. A parent being a marxist doesnt mean their kids would be, someone converting to Islam will propagate the religion to their kids.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 9:45am

silverharp wrote: »

while du jour might be true most ideologies go away after some political reform or economic changes, religion is a stickier thing and I dont see Islam going away any time soon. A parent being a marxist doesnt mean their kids would be, someone converting to Islam will propagate the religion to their kids.

Yes, but Islam has been around for more than 1300 years, and for most of that time is has been notably more peaceful and tolerant than, say, Christianity. Islam will almost certainly survive, but there is no reason to see it as posing a long-term threat of terrorism. Fashions move on; all our experience suggests that some other ideology will be filling this niche - and a few other niches that Islam currently fills, like being a popular target for the bigoted - in a few years time.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 10:15am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, but Islam has been around for more than 1300 years, and for most of that time is has been notably more peaceful and tolerant than, say, Christianity. Islam will almost certainly survive, but there is no reason to see it as posing a long-term threat of terrorism. Fashions move on; all our experience suggests that some other ideology will be filling this niche - and a few other niches that Islam currently fills, like being a popular target for the bigoted - in a few years time.

what you say doesn't comfort me at all also outside of terrorism what about all the separatism and general exremism? , place your bets....

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 10:19am

silverharp wrote: »

what you say doesn't comfort me at all also outside of terrorism what about all the separatism and general exremism? , place your bets....

Well, again, separatism and "general extremism" are frequent features of conflicts in which Islam plays no role, both historically and right now. There's no unique connection there.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 10:50am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, again, separatism and "general extremism" are frequent features of conflicts in which Islam plays no role, both historically and right now. There's no unique connection there.

but why invite more opportunities? who knows what future history has in store? as far as I would guess having Islam in Europe reverting to some middle class Anglican church in the next 100 years is very remote. there is a heady mix of antipathy to western culture and values, lower educational attainment and a ghettoization which adds to the "us and them", that's just a recipe for future strife

robindch · 16-02-2017 6:20pm

Meanwhile, in Another Place, a bishop pressed the wrong button and accidentally voted against a controversial report on homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

looksee · 16-02-2017 6:45pm

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, in Another Place, a bishop pressed the wrong button and accidentally voted against a controversial report on homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

I'm not sayin' nuthin.

recedite · 16-02-2017 11:15pm

robindch wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

Probably one of the most confusing articles I have ever read, especially when Reverend Cocksworth says at the end.

the report was a "valuable road map" and he was "disappointed" by the vote's outcome.

Sadly the tabloids don't seem to have picked up on this story.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-02-2017 2:51am

I know what a Jobsworth is...

silverharp · 23-02-2017 10:34am

would he have been charged in Ireland if something similar happened?

http://www.thelocal.dk/20170222/danish-man-who-burned-koran-charged-for-blasphemy

A man who filmed himself burning the Quran has become the first person to be charged under Denmark's blasphemy law in 46 years.

The 42-year-old filmed himself burning a copy of Islam's holy book in his back yard in December 2015. He then posted the video on the anti-Islamic Facebook group, "Yes to freedom - no to Islam" along with the words, “Consider your neighbour: it stinks when it burns."

Danish prosecutor Jan Reckendorff announced his decision to bring charges in a press statement issued on Wednesday afternoon.

“It is the prosecution's view that circumstances involving the burning of holy books such as the Bible and the Quran can in certain cases be a violation of the blasphemy clause, which covers public scorn or mockery of religion

Peregrinus · 24-02-2017 3:57am

Most likely not, for two reasons.

One, I don't think there's any desire to prosecute anyone, ever, for the blasphemy offence. So, as a matter of policy, prosecution is unlikely.

Two, in order to commit the offence it's not enough to "publish or utter matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion"; you must actually "cause outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion", and in addition you must have intended that when you published the material.

This guy published the material by posting it to an anti-Islamic facebook page. That suggests the audience he was targetting was people wh already thought like him. I'm not seeing any evidence of intent to cause outrage among a substantial number of Muslims. And, without that evidence, any prosecution must fail.

Is there any offence, other than the blasphemy offence, that might be relevant here? Possibly, yes, though I think a prosecution would be a bit of a stretch. It's an offence under the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989 s. to distribute, show or play a visual recording that is "threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or . . . likely to stir up hatred" against a group on account of (among other things) their religion.

You could argue that the purpose or likely outcome of making this tape and circulating it to a group of Islamophobes is to arouse and intensify their hatred against Muslims.

Frankly, though, I don't think a prosecution would succeed here either. Just an image of him burning the Qu'ran wouldn't be enough; the tape would need to include some explicitly anti-Muslim (and I think not merely anti-Islam) speech.

silverharp · 24-02-2017 10:34am

it will be interesting to see how the case goes there and what arguments are used. It appears to be a kite flying exercise with the goal of making the Quran a "protected" book of sorts and if he was found guilty there is probably recourse to EU court.

silverharp · 24-02-2017 11:39am

no good deed goes unpunished

http://www.thelocal.ch/20170224/winterthur-mosque-presses-charges-against-duo-who-reported-imam-for-inciting-murder

Winterthur mosque presses charges against duo who reported imam for inciting murder

The association that runs the An’Nour mosque in Winterthur has lodged a complaint with police against two members of the congregation thought to have reported their imam for inciting murder – a day after ten people were arrested for allegedly beating up the duo in revenge.
On Tuesday morning police in the canton of Zurich arrested ten suspects in a raid on a dozen houses in Winterthur.

One was later released, but eight adults and one juvenile remain in custody, accused of having beaten up and threatened two individuals at the mosque last November.

The pair are thought to have tipped off a journalist about a controversial sermon given by the mosque’s imam in which he called for the congregation to kill Muslims who do not participate in common prayer.

The reporting of the sermon in early November led to the arrest of the imam, who is now facing criminal proceedings for inciting crime and violence.

Now, the association that runs the mosque wants to press charges against the pair for allegedly secretly filming the controversial sermon, according to 20 Minutes.

The public prosecutor confirmed the news to the paper on Wednesday.

Zurich lawyer Andreas Meili told the paper that theoretically a prison sentence is possible, if it is found that the pair’s secret filming violated rights to privacy.

silverharp · 01-03-2017 10:43pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdypDLtpc5M

Cabaal · 02-03-2017 3:19pm

Not sure if a hazard, but its messed up

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39139750

good to hear it was impounded

silverharp · 02-03-2017 3:29pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Not sure if a hazard, but its messed up

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39139750

good to hear it was impounded

I'd heard it was impounded because of an outdoor advertising regulation? otherwise free speech in my book

Michael OBrien · 02-03-2017 3:57pm

"Mr Arsuaga claimed the slogan on the bus stated only "a fact of biology that is studied in schools"." I love how they like to play innocent when they know it is a strike against transgenders. Also it is NOT a fact of biology, hence why medical experts in fields that reference such biology recognise that its not that clear cut.
Catholics have no problem with a ghost impregnating a virgin and giving birth to a supernatural entity that rises from the dead and flies into the stratosphere on water vapour, but draw a line in the sand that a woman or man might have a less than clear cut gender or that homosexuals are natural.

One eyed Jack · 02-03-2017 10:07pm

Michael OBrien wrote: »

"Mr Arsuaga claimed the slogan on the bus stated only "a fact of biology that is studied in schools"." I love how they like to play innocent when they know it is a strike against transgenders. Also it is NOT a fact of biology, hence why medical experts in fields that reference such biology recognise that its not that clear cut.

Is it not a fact of biology that is taught in schools?

Catholics have no problem with a ghost impregnating a virgin and giving birth to a supernatural entity that rises from the dead and flies into the stratosphere on water vapour, but draw a line in the sand that a woman or man might have a less than clear cut gender or that homosexuals are natural.

I like how you like to play the innocent when it comes to a strike against Roman Catholics, particularly when most theologians would recognise it's not that clear cut.

oscarBravo · 02-03-2017 11:18pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is it not a fact of biology that is taught in schools?

Are you arguing that everything that's taught in schools is axiomatically true?

The Hazards of Belief

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