12 acres. Tree plan.

80sDiesel · 15-12-2017 6:30pm #1

Have a smallholding of 12 acres. 350 metres high and half would be damp soggy ground. Plan is to plant alder on the boundaries and groups of 3/5 alders dotted around the fields.
On a small bit of land which I guessed was used to dump the rocks from the fields I plan on planting Rowan with some Birch.

On the better ground a few groups of Scots pines dotted around.

Probably a crab apple or two by the old homestead.

There is a laneway to the old homestead but not sure what to plant there.

Sounds like a plan? Anything else I should consider?

Laneway to homestead. One spruce down.

orchard farm · 15-12-2017 7:44pm

Why not apply for forest scheme and plant oak

Cattlepen · 15-12-2017 9:31pm

Look in to the agroforestry scheme. Get it planted for nothing with 5 years of premia

blue5000 · 16-12-2017 11:32am

OP do you want to plant all of the 12 acres or just here and there on it?

80sDiesel · 16-12-2017 7:41pm

blue5000 wrote: »

OP do you want to plant all of the 12 acres or just here and there on it?

Just here and there. Not wanting a forest .

JJayoo · 11-01-2018 10:27pm

OP what did you decide to plant?

Few oaks would be nice

80sDiesel · 13-01-2018 10:48am

JJayoo wrote: »

OP what did you decide to plant?

Few oaks would be nice

I got in touch with future forests where I got excellent advice.
The following will be planted:
Trembling poplars
Common Alder
Downy Birch
Scots Pines
Wild cherry (laneway to homestead)
Native Willow
Hawthorn
Blackthorn
Wynch Elm
And the customary Rowan tree and crab apple trees by the homestead

I was drawing out a plan of the land on A2 paper last night to work out how many and where to plant them.

Yee oaks would be nice. Might establish the above first ( most are pioneer species anyhow) and then get some oak in.

JJayoo · 13-01-2018 11:05am

Sounds good, wild cherry is a beautiful tree

Nekarsulm · 13-01-2018 1:28pm

Personally, I think thats a great mix, with the possible exception of the Blackthorn.
Horrible creeping things, and very hard to eradicate in the future.
And every jag of a thorn you get from them seems to turn septic....

80sDiesel · 13-01-2018 4:07pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Personally, I think thats a great mix, with the possible exception of the Blackthorn.
Horrible creeping things, and very hard to eradicate in the future.

Thanks for the heads up. Will do a bit more research on the blackthorn'.

80sDiesel · 19-04-2018 6:11pm

Update:
So i ordered 1603 trees.
The main trees will be Alder and Downy Birch. These will be mixed sparingly with Oak, Wynch Elm, White Birch, Crab Apple and Wild Cheery. The odd blackthorn and Hawthorn will be thrown in.

There will be one area which will have Trembling Poplars.

Scots pine will be dotted around.

One area for Willow.

A native irish apple orchard.

Hazel orchard. ( may need foreign species for cross pollination which i am loathe to do)

And groups of Alder in parts of a field that are wet.

...Got 9 spruce taken down last weekend ( 60 years old!) and have some more spruce and sycamore to go before planting in December.

Nekarsulm · 19-04-2018 8:11pm

Great to see an orchard planted. And having a few crab apple trees really help with pollination of your orchard.

80sDiesel · 19-04-2018 9:43pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Great to see an orchard planted. And having a few crab apple trees really help with pollination of your orchard.

Tnks.

JJayoo · 19-04-2018 9:50pm

1600 trees damn that's gonna be a lot of planting.

I planted in 612 trees since Jan and both my back and spade are foooked

twignme · 19-04-2018 9:55pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up. Will do a bit more research on the blackthorn'.

Wonderful sloes for a great tasting gin.

80sDiesel · 19-04-2018 11:26pm

twignme wrote: »

Wonderful sloes for a great tasting gin.

Indeed. Plan to do that.

80sDiesel · 19-04-2018 11:29pm

JJayoo wrote: »

1600 trees damn that's gonna be a lot of planting.

I planted in 612 trees since Jan and both my back and spade are foooked

Yup. Will be taking off 2 weeks work to do it. The fact that it has been 2 years in the planning will hopeful ease the pain.

Nekarsulm · 19-04-2018 11:42pm

Or hire a lad who knows what he's at, with a Hitachi.
Let him mound it to your plan, and yourself and a mate follow behind planting.
Best 200 euro you'll ever spend!

Accidentally · 20-04-2018 6:31am

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yup. Will be taking off 2 weeks work to do it. The fact that it has been 2 years in the planning will hopeful ease the pain.

Unless you're going to mow arround them or have animals grazing, don't plant blackthorn. They spread by underground runners and will quickly turn the area into a Blackthorn thicket. Hawthorn doesn't do this, so is much easier control.

Also, removing Blackthorn is a pain in the ass. It tends to involve a bit of blood and pain.

Accidentally · 20-04-2018 6:38am

Id recommend a few lime trees as well if you can. They look lovely in leaf and the local bees will be delighted with you.

80sDiesel · 20-04-2018 11:07am

Accidentally wrote: »

Id recommend a few lime trees as well if you can. They look lovely in leaf and the local bees will be delighted with you.

Yep i like them too but there are not native.

80sDiesel · 20-04-2018 11:08am

Accidentally wrote: »

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yup. Will be taking off 2 weeks work to do it. The fact that it has been 2 years in the planning will hopeful ease the pain.

Unless you're going to mow arround them or have animals grazing, don't plant blackthorn. They spread by underground runners and will quickly turn the area into a Blackthorn thicket. Hawthorn doesn't do this, so is much easier control.

Also, removing Blackthorn is a pain in the ass. It tends to involve a bit of blood and pain.

Yep. I will cancel the blackthorn. Seems to be a problematic bush.

Accidentally · 20-04-2018 11:34am

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yep i like them too but there are not native.

Unless you're going down to the Burren to collect cones from the miniature trees, your Scots Pine will be a descendent of the reintroduction from Scotland.

Good luck with it, it's one of the best ways to relieve stress I've ever found.

80sDiesel · 21-04-2018 4:05pm

I had a walk around the boundary of the farm today and its not as wet as i thought it would be. Should i replace some of the Alder with Birch ? Does Alder need wet ground or just that it grows faster ?

tabby aspreme · 22-04-2018 12:04am

Alder will tolerate wet ground where most trees would not grow, but will grow even better on heavy ground, Birch will also grow well on heavy ground and is a nicer tree. Would you consider planting a few Walnut also for nuts and eventually a valuable timber crop, and also a few Norway Maple for color in the autumn

80sDiesel · 22-04-2018 12:01pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Alder will tolerate wet ground where most trees would not grow, but will grow even better on heavy ground, Birch will also grow well on heavy ground and is a nicer tree. Would you consider planting a few Walnut also for nuts and eventually a valuable timber crop, and also a few Norway Maple for color in the autumn

Thanks for that. Didnt realise that Alder grow even better on heavy ground. Birch are nice but the Alder grow taller and have a wider crowd. ( need to block off neighbouring spruce plantation). The alder are also great for the bees as it produces alot of pollen. But i think i will grow more of the birch.

Yeah before i went with native trees my first love was nuts. Did alot of research ( fruitandnut.ie was even booked on one of their workshops) but i am at 350m so walnuts wouldn't produce. The hazel will work and i will have to introduce a couple non-native specimans for cross-pollination.

Re Normay Maple: Yes wanted a bit of colour but because it is a very local area in a scenic area i wanted to stick with native species. The quaking aspen will give me a fantastic autumn colour and the wild cherry will do the spring.

80sDiesel · 22-04-2018 12:05pm

Accidentally wrote: »

Unless you're going down to the Burren to collect cones from the miniature trees, your Scots Pine will be a descendent of the reintroduction from Scotland.

Good luck with it, it's one of the best ways to relieve stress I've ever found.

Speaking of scots pine. That storm during the year knocked the only scots pine that i had on the land. It had synamore and spruce to choose from but no, decided to go after my lovely scots

Only upside is that it will be lovely to burn next winter.

80sDiesel · 22-04-2018 12:08pm

This video is good. Although scotland, the share many native species like us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecbwpzr92Ps

Teyla Emmagan · 22-04-2018 12:30pm

It sounds amazing. I am very envious.

Accidentally · 22-04-2018 1:09pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

I had a walk around the boundary of the farm today and its not as wet as i thought it would be. Should i replace some of the Alder with Birch ? Does Alder need wet ground or just that it grows faster ?

It doesn't need wet ground, but like willow, it is planted there because other trees will not tolerate the conditions. As long as the ground is not bone dry, it will be fine.

TwoOldBoots · 06-05-2018 11:33am

80sDiesel wrote: »

Update:
So i ordered 1603 trees.

Where did you order these from and roughly how much do they cost?
Are you getting a grant, as far as I know isn't there a grant for low density planting?

80sDiesel · 06-05-2018 9:34pm

TwoOldBoots wrote: »

Where did you order these from and roughly how much do they cost?
Are you getting a grant, as far as I know isn't there a grant for low density planting?

Future forests in Cork. Cost about 3,000. Did a bit of research and didnt see any grants available.

80sDiesel · 06-05-2018 9:50pm

80sDiesel · 12-11-2018 12:38pm

So after a year in planning i am doing an initial planting over the next 2 weekends.

Area B- Field1 Boundry : Roughly 200 meters boundry,

3 'rows' deep. 3 meters rough spacing.
Majority Alder complemented by Downy Birch and then smaller quantities of Wych elm, silver birch, wild cherry and crab apple.

Oak will be mixed in later in the year.

Am i right in saying that because of the slow growing and less light needs that i can place an oak between 2 alders even though the space between those 2 alders is 3 meteres ?

Accidentally · 12-11-2018 8:31pm

You'll be fine. Most bare root go in at around 1m gaps anyway. I've Oak, Alder and Cherry mixed on a field edge for near 15 years and all seem happy with each other.

Don't be surprised if the oak grows more quickly than you expect. It all depends on the soil, and trees aren't good at reading the rules.

Nekarsulm · 12-11-2018 9:29pm

Wasn't oak usually planted amongst faster growing species, so it'd have to strive towards the light and grow straighter?

80sDiesel · 12-11-2018 10:07pm

Accidentally wrote: »

You'll be fine. Most bare root go in at around 1m gaps anyway. I've Oak, Alder and Cherry mixed on a field edge for near 15 years and all seem happy with each other.

Don't be surprised if the oak grows more quickly than you expect. It all depends on the soil, and trees aren't good at reading the rules.

Would love to see a photo if you had one handy?

Accidentally · 13-11-2018 5:11am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Wasn't oak usually planted amongst faster growing species, so it'd have to strive towards the light and grow straighter?

Yes, it's often planted with nursery trees such as Scots Pine. My comment was more towards the growth rate, it's often not as slow as people expect.

80sDiesel · 19-11-2018 4:00pm

So i got 190 done in a day and a half. 120 Alder, 10 grey willow, 9 wild cherry, 9 crab apple , 9 Silver Birch and 30 Downy Birch.

At the beginning i was trying to place them exactly where i wanted them but towards the end i just wanted them in !!!!

Will go out again this weekend and take a look and replant if i want to move them.

That was just one field ( have to add need some oak, wych elm and goat willow ) but gives me a better idea of how and how many i need for the remaining 6 fields.

Was a very interesting field to start with as it was sloping down to a wet area so could take different kinds. Got a good indication of which parts had the deepest and best soil which i will use on the next fields so i know which trees will be suited in which areas.

Not planting now for a another month so gives me time to amend/correct my planning for the other fields.

Accidentally · 19-11-2018 9:30pm

Well done. Take a few photos now so you can look back and laugh in 10 years time.

Chisler2 · 20-11-2018 4:00am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Or hire a lad who knows what he's at, with a Hitachi.
Let him mound it to your plan, and yourself and a mate follow behind planting.
Best 200 euro you'll ever spend!

Inspired by this thread and the OP's progress and would welcome help from the experienced people here.

First off..........I explored the route of getting a grant and having a forestry outfit plant. I decided to do this myself for full control without encumberances.

I am a townie retired to a 15-acre smallholding in Mayo so forgive my ignorance I am learning fast (I have to!!!) Last February I planted out 140 baby trees (rowan, willow, hazel, hawthorn, whitethorn, blackthorn, five heritage Irish species apple trees and a couple of crab-apple) during "The Beast From the East" using pickaxe and shovel. Btw I am 70 years old 5'0" woman with osteoarthritis in hands and feet so it took some doing.

The "future forest" not only survived but thrives.

A further 450 mixed deciduous trees are on order for coming February. I need an easier way to get this lot into an acre of sloping land (about 45 degrees) with a lot of large stone and rushes.

Is a one-person petrol-driven auger with an 8" drill a good option for this? I have had difficulty getting contractors to give my jobs a second glance as they are small. Is this equipment usable by a short person with limited strength but will do it myself as a last resort. Are there other alternatives I do not know about?

The question from the townie is "what exactly is a lad with a hitachi", where could I find him and how much would it cost?

Accidentally · 20-11-2018 5:13am

Lad with a Hitachi is a full sized tracked digger. It's way over the top for what you're doing and could leave your land in ****e.

If the grounds full of rocks and impracticle to dig by hand, try find someone with a mini digger.

You mentioned that you planted blackthorn. Unless you really love them, I would pull them. They spread by runners and will gradually take over the place.

Melodeon · 20-11-2018 11:59am

Chisler2 wrote: »

Is a one-person petrol-driven auger with an 8" drill a good option for this? I have had difficulty getting contractors to give my jobs a second glance as they are small. Is this equipment usable by a short person with limited strength but will do it myself as a last resort. Are there other alternatives I do not know about?

Realistically, in your circumstance, I'd have to say an emphatic "No!" to this idea.

In operation, posthole borers are sort of like a combination of a moderately heavy jackhammer and a very large drill, and are in my opinion, utterly unsuitable for dragging around a rocky hillside trying to make 450 holes.
Even on relatively level and stone-free land, they require a combination of a fair degree of physical strength and commitment to keep them under control, and caution and anticipation for when (not 'if') they snag on a rock or root and try to twist the power head in the opposite direction.

Really, the least-labour/mechanical way here is to get in a mini-digger and operator to do the groundwork, but even that'll be tricky on a 1:1 slope as you describe.

Unfortunately, we're now back to the pick and spade.

It DOES however, give the option of making the planting pattern truly random, and the placing of the saplings in the best possible soil conditions.

victor8600 · 20-11-2018 12:42pm

Melodeon wrote: »

Realistically, in your circumstance, I'd have to say an emphatic "No!" to this idea.... posthole borers are ... utterly unsuitable for dragging around a rocky hillside trying to make 450 holes...

I can confirm this. I had tried to use a petrol auger / posthole drill in a rocky ground. The only advantage of the drill I can see is that it does make a nice deep round hole, provided the soil has no rocks (or roots) larger than 2 inches.

Thud · 20-11-2018 12:56pm

find some young lads who want to make a few quid, tell them they can skip the gym that day and pay by number of trees they plant?

SmartinMartin · 20-11-2018 1:15pm

OK, I need to ask. What is the purpose of planting 1600 trees on your land at a cost of 3 grand (not including the incredible amount of labour)?
Given that there's no grant involved it's either
(a) a business venture or
(b) a very selfless act.
I'm genuinely interested as I could be in a similar situation.

Mbob · 20-11-2018 1:57pm

SmartinMartin wrote: »

OK, I need to ask. What is the purpose of planting 1600 trees on your land at a cost of 3 grand (not including the incredible amount of labour)?
Given that there's no grant involved it's either
(a) a business venture or
(b) a very selfless act.
I'm genuinely interested as I could be in a similar situation.

I'm intrigued too and might be in a similar situation. I have a 10 area plot that is just one field, I hope to section off 1 acre of this and build a house for myself on it, fence off/sow a hedge creating a long driveway to the 1 acre plot. I'd then like to divide the remaining 9 acres into paddocks. Ideally I do this by plating tress/hedges, is there any grant available for this type of planting?

Accidentally · 20-11-2018 2:30pm

SmartinMartin wrote: »

OK, I need to ask. What is the purpose of planting 1600 trees on your land at a cost of 3 grand (not including the incredible amount of labour)?
Given that there's no grant involved it's either
(a) a business venture or
(b) a very selfless act.
I'm genuinely interested as I could be in a similar situation.

It's obviously not a business venture, but is there something wrong with planting trees just because you like trees. Not everything has to be done on a 'what's in it for me' basis.

SmartinMartin · 20-11-2018 3:24pm

Accidentally wrote: »

It's obviously not a business venture, but is there something wrong with planting trees just because you like trees. Not everything has to be done on a 'what's in it for me' basis.

Where did anyone suggest there was something wrong with it?

cruizer101 · 20-11-2018 3:28pm

SmartinMartin wrote: »

OK, I need to ask. What is the purpose of planting 1600 trees on your land at a cost of 3 grand (not including the incredible amount of labour)?
Given that there's no grant involved it's either
(a) a business venture or
(b) a very selfless act.
I'm genuinely interested as I could be in a similar situation.

I don't know that it has to be either of those. What about just spending money to create something you can enjoy, added benefit that it is good for the environment and local nature. Plenty of people spend far more on their gardens just to be able to look at them and enjoy them.

I'm actually surprised how cheap it is, mind if were to cost the labor would be lot more.

80sDiesel · 20-11-2018 4:22pm

Ok. So why folks ask

The land is surrounded by a spruce plantation which was recently cut down. That gave me the idea then to 'frame' the land myself with my own boundary of trees.

But my choice of trees was also influenced by which ones would benefit nature the most and then choosing only Irish native trees. ( for example the goat willow is one of the highest plants for pollen ! )

My other interests are wildflowers and hay meadows ( have sown yellow rattle in a small test field and my austrian scythe is all ready for next summer ) so its all part of a greater plan.

Its also very interesting and a nice hobby. For example, last night i have been researching trembling poplars ( the only Irish Aspen tree ) which i will plant but trying to decide where ( they send up suckers ) to plant them is a great mind challenge.

12 acres. Tree plan.

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