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eircom phonewatch & upc

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    #152
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    If RF Jam is turned off then RF jam will not report.
    Can you clarify what panel you are referring to and what frequency are the devices?

    WRT GSM jamming the major factor is that no physical tampering is required.
    However I have a few more reasons to be cautious then Fred listed.
    Its not only the monitoring stations that should be concerned about explaining why no signals were received. Likewise, as an installer, I would not like to be facing a customer after they suffered a break-in and no signals were received.
    You are going to get... This was the equipment you sold me, you told me there was no real risk of jamming etc etc..
    Also the fact that no physical tampering is required means they are not going to be seeing opening box's or cutting cables etc.
    With GSM I always take the same line with customers. I explain how easily & cheaply they can be jammed. I also explain how they work so they understand it will not flag a line fault either.


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    #153
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    KoolKid wrote: »
    If RF Jam is turned off then RF jam will not report.
    Can you clarify what panel you are referring to and what frequency are the devices?

    WRT GSM jamming the major factor is that no physical tampering is required.
    However I have a few more reasons to be cautious then Fred listed.
    Its not only the monitoring stations that should be concerned about explaining why no signals were received. Likewise, as an installer, I would not like to be facing a customer after they suffered a break-in and no signals were received.
    You are going to get... This was the equipment you sold me, you told me there was no real risk of jamming etc etc..
    Also the fact that no physical tampering is required means they are not going to be seeing opening box's or cutting cables etc.
    With GSM I always take the same line with customers. I explain how easily & cheaply they can be jammed. I also explain how they work so they understand it will not flag a line fault either.

    You are right to do that, we are after all the professionals and are leaving ourselves open by not advising clients to such weaknesses.


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    #154
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    This all comes down to our system design proposal and what grade of system should be installed by assessing the potential security risk to the premises.

    99% of alarm installations are installed to protect against opertunistic burglars and not from burglars particularly targeting a premises. The more are risk premises obviously needs more protection To stop the communications being tampered with.

    I'm obviously not going to get into the ins and outs of disabling phones lines, UPC and GSM dialler but I assume all you lads when installing fixed line diallers explain the risks of tampering with those too?


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    #155
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    It's a bit mad to think Phonewatch openly tell the country that they only use gsm. Anyone know why they switch off the jam detection on the panels ?
    Even when it's turned back on they ignore any jam signals received at the station. Is jam detection not required under EN-50131?

    In my opinion, it's a huge mistake but i'm not going to complain to much as I'm currently benefiting from PW's new installation policy.


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    #156
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    This all comes down to our system design proposal and what grade of system should be installed by assessing the potential security risk to the premises.

    99% of alarm installations are installed to protect against opertunistic burglars and not from burglars particularly targeting a premises. The more are risk premises obviously needs more protection To stop the communications being tampered with.

    I'm obviously not going to get into the ins and outs of disabling phones lines, UPC and GSM dialler but I assume all you lads when installing fixed line diallers explain the risks of tampering with those too?

    I think we might be better off discussing this subject elsewhere.


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    #157
    Evolution1
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    Both the simon panel 433.92mhz
    And the simon xt panel 868mhz
    But regardless the frequency shouldn't matter in terms of jamming.
    Yes when it's turned off it will not report but even when it's turned back on and the panel recognises and reports to the station they still ignore it. It's crazy.
    As another poster said phonewatch assured him that the engineer should have switched the RF jam detect off


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    #158
    Capone79
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭Capone79


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    In my opinion, it's a huge mistake but i'm not going to complain to much as I'm currently benefiting from PW's new installation policy.

    And that is?If you don't mind me asking


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    #159
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Capone79 wrote: »
    And that is?If you don't mind me asking

    Only installing beams, no perimeter protection. Burglar has to be inside house before alarm triggers.

    Their beams have cameras in them. People don't like the idea of a group of lads in a control room looking at them.

    All their systems will have a GSM dialler, this makes them particularly vulnerable to jamming.


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    #160
    Capone79
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭Capone79


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    Only installing beams, no perimeter protection. Burglar has to be inside house before alarm triggers.

    Their beams have cameras in them. People don't like the idea of a group of lads in a control room looking at them.

    All their systems will have a GSM dialler, this makes them particularly vulnerable to jamming.

    Oh ok, yeah mine has the same, beams etc, but It isn't on a gsm dialer, it is connected to a secure Eircom phoneline, which I'm trying to get rid of and get a cheaper alternative without compromising security.


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    #161
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Capone79 wrote: »
    Oh ok, yeah mine has the same, beams etc, but It isn't on a gsm dialer, it is connected to a secure Eircom phoneline, which I'm trying to get rid of and get a cheaper alternative without compromising security.

    All new installation ate GSM only, not sure what their plan is for existing systems but im sure they all be changed over at some stage.

    Secure phone line? Did they really tell you that?


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    #162
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    All new installation ate GSM only, not sure what their plan is for existing systems but im sure they all be changed over at some stage.

    Secure phone line? Did they really tell you that?

    😆Secure phone line, I never figured our Scandinavian cousins as funny.


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    #163
    Capone79
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭Capone79


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    All new installation ate GSM only, not sure what their plan is for existing systems but im sure they all be changed over at some stage.

    Secure phone line? Did they really tell you that?

    Ha, no, I thought it was. So are you telling me there is no difference in the phoneline and a GSM box, security wise?


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    #164
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    To disconnect a PSTN land line requires physical tampering and the panel will register a line fault.
    Jamming a GSM signal requires no physical tampering and will not register a fault on the panel.


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    #165
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,654 ✭✭✭✭altor


    I suppose it depends on the GSM used.

    The new world used in many installation just provides a line, no polling. Lucky to have a test call programmed in many cases.

    A polled GSM like dual com misses the poll indicating a problem, albeit after the 5 missed polls.

    With the HKC GSM it will register a jam detect and will log the event.

    Anyone know the type of GSM P.W. is using in its new system?

    www.altor.ie



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    #166
    Capone79
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭Capone79


    altor wrote: »
    I suppose it depends on the GSM used.

    The new world used in many installation just provides a line, no polling. Lucky to have a test call programmed in many cases.

    A polled GSM like dual com misses the poll indicating a problem, albeit after the 5 missed polls.

    With the HKC GSM it will register a jam detect and will log the event.

    Anyone know the type of GSM P.W. is using in its new system?

    No I haven't a clue but I'd be interested in the GSM that can detect a jam.

    Would I be able to use any GSM unit with Eircom PW or do I have to use their one?


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    #167
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    What would be better would be if a duel path failure could be treated as an attack & get the same response.


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    #168
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,654 ✭✭✭✭altor


    Capone79 wrote: »
    No I haven't a clue but I'd be interested in the GSM that can detect a jam.

    Would I be able to use any GSM unit with Eircom PW or do I have to use their one?

    I dont know what GSM they are using. It could still be the new world.
    The HKC GSM has Jam detect and will log the event.

    www.altor.ie



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    #169
    Jurrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Jurrrr


    Have UPC not introduced a service to do this for the existing PW customers looking to change? I'm in the process and the hassle of it all is making me have second thoughts


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    #170
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    I imagine that they are scared of going near it because if anything happened afterwards they could be held responsible. It is just the times we live in, a while back you could slip a chap a few bob and he would do you a favour but not any more.


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    #171
    Jurrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Jurrrr


    kub wrote: »
    I imagine that they are scared of going near it because if anything happened afterwards they could be held responsible. It is just the times we live in, a while back you could slip a chap a few bob and he would do you a favour but not any more.

    So there is literally nothing I can do other than the option in the 2nd post on this thread or the 200e option thing?!


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    #172
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Jurrrr wrote: »
    So there is literally nothing I can do other than the option in the 2nd post on this thread or the 200e option thing?!

    Well if you do not feel like connecting it yourself you can always ask Phonewatch to do it for you. They will more than likely fleece you though.
    Have you considered getting another alarm company in to sort it out for you and perhaps get the thing monitored elsewhere for less money?


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    #173
    Jurrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Jurrrr


    kub wrote: »
    Well if you do not feel like connecting it yourself you can always ask Phonewatch to do it for you. They will more than likely fleece you though.
    Have you considered getting another alarm company in to sort it out for you and perhaps get the thing monitored elsewhere for less money?

    Is it possible to just cancel everything with eircom and then get a new company to monitor the eircom alarm? Utilise all the sensors etc? Is that heard of? Can you recommend any good alarm companies?


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    #174
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Jurrrr wrote: »
    Is it possible to just cancel everything with eircom and then get a new company to monitor the eircom alarm? Utilise all the sensors etc? Is that heard of? Can you recommend any good alarm companies?

    Can a mechanic who works in a Ford garage fix a Toyota car? Of course if the guy has the correct approach.

    It is of course possible to cancel your alarm monitoring, i am saying that as Eircom sold off Phonewatch a few months ago and are now different entities.

    As i am sure you can appreciate there are hundreds of alarm companies up and down this Island, many of which can and others who will not work on your existing system.

    Best bet is ring around and ask them have they any experience in maintaining a Phonewatch system.


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