Ionity charging network

peposhi · 29-04-2018 11:40pm

I am trying to get in touch with the person (team) that is responsible for the FCP rollout in Ireland and so far had no success whatsoever.
I’ve already sent 2 emails on their IONITY.EU page and spoke meanwhile to the European customer service just to be told I have to contact them again via email.
Does anyone know, someone who knows someone and etc. I’d really like to speak to the developing team...

30-04-2018 10:21am

peposhi wrote: »

I am trying to get in touch with the person (team) that is responsible for the FCP rollout in Ireland and so far had no success whatsoever.
I’ve already sent 2 emails on their IONITY.EU page and spoke meanwhile to the European customer service just to be told I have to contact them again via email.
Does anyone know, someone who knows someone and etc. I’d really like to speak to the developing team...

Ionity are working with Topaz to install these chargers and hope to have the first up and running by the end of the Summer, I'll see if I can find out any more info.

Each site will have 4 chargers and will be along motorway routes.

By Summer 2019 they plan 4 sites, whether Ionity plan other non Topaz sites I don't know.

The ESB are also upgrading existing ChaDeMo Topaz sites with the newer triple headed chargers, that's in progress as we speak.

bonky2018 · 12-05-2018 11:59am

My brother liked electric in test drives and talking to friends who are owners
However it wasnt to be he bought A 181 just end of April a Kia petrol 1000cc with turbo
The new plan is to flip it in 3 years to EV when all the new chargers are in place and there are new 250k miles range cars and chargers not blocked up with IC cars

liamog · 12-05-2018 1:07pm

bonky2018 wrote: »

My brother liked electric in test drives and talking to friends who are owners
However it wasnt to be he bought A 181 just end of April a Kia petrol 1000cc with turbo
The new plan is to flip it in 3 years to EV when all the new chargers are in place and there are new 250k miles range cars and chargers not blocked up with IC cars

It's going to be a long time before a car comes with 250,000 miles range on a full charge. He may be waiting for the nuclear reactor powered Leaf. ;-

unkel · 12-05-2018 2:07pm

bonky2018 wrote: »

My brother liked electric in test drives and talking to friends who are owners
However it wasnt to be he bought A 181 just end of April a Kia petrol 1000cc with turbo
The new plan is to flip it in 3 years to EV when all the new chargers are in place and there are new 250k miles range cars and chargers not blocked up with IC cars

Looks like he made a mistake there. The first budget EV that can do well over 250 miles is out in the next few months.

And fast chargers are rarely blocked up with ICE cars and slow chargers are pointless anyway for modern EVs. There are only plans for 9 Ionity chargers BTW.

Go tell him the bad news

peposhi · 14-05-2018 1:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ionity are working with Topaz to install these chargers and hope to have the first up and running by the end of the Summer, I'll see if I can find out any more info.

Each site will have 4 chargers and will be along motorway routes.

By Summer 2019 they plan 4 sites, whether Ionity plan other non Topaz sites I don't know.

The ESB are also upgrading existing ChaDeMo Topaz sites with the newer triple headed chargers, that's in progress as we speak.

Any luck Mad_Lad?
I tried the CS and email again - not a dot back from them. Either they’re not interested or I’m contacting the wrong people...

14-05-2018 6:54am

peposhi wrote: »

Any luck Mad_Lad?
I tried the CS and email again - not a dot back from them. Either they’re not interested or I’m contacting the wrong people...

No unfortunately, I sent him another email, it's possible he missed it, I have over 10,000 unread emails in my work inbox ffs lol so I know how easy it is to miss an email and have to do real work at the same time yet be supposed to catch all the emails. !

karltimber · 14-05-2018 7:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

have to do real work at the same time yet be supposed to catch all the emails. !

I'll give you the corporate answer - "you need to make time"

Jeditraining1 · 21-05-2018 1:47pm

unkel wrote: »

I haven't seen any, but tbh, I don't really care. If I had to pay triple the normal full day time retail rates on the few occasions that I need a quick and reliable charge on my travels across the country with the full family on board, I'd be happy to pay it. And from what liamog states, the CirkleK business model is based on high margin shop offerings. Knowing my family, they'd all want a €3 hot chocolat or cappucino every time we charge, so I'll gladly contribute there too

A triple domestic rate of €13c/kWh would be €40c/kWh. A charge to bring Ioniq from 15% to 85% would cost less than €8. And if the car really can take 100kW, then it would take just 12 minutes. Happy days.

62kW is the max I have seen it take. Have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIe7SNyLAdQ Its a demo of it on a 150kW.

21-05-2018 1:49pm

Planning permission for the first 6 Ionity sites is supposed to be submitted this week, that's all the info I got.

ELM327 · 21-05-2018 1:49pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

62kW is the max I have seen it take. Have a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIe7SNyLAdQ Its a demo of it on a 150kW.

It has taken 69.9kW as videoed by Bjorn Nyland on a 100kW unit.
He also theorized that it was amp limited.

The battery is limited to 400v but if the amperage is raised at the charger end, it is possible to exceed the current max of ~70kW.

ELM327 · 21-05-2018 1:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Planning permission for the first 6 Ionity sites is supposed to be submitted this week, that's all the info I got.

That will at least give the precise locations.
Do we think they are going to mirror the Tesla supercharger locations?

21-05-2018 1:58pm

No Idea where they'll be except they'll be along the main motorway routes so no doubt some maybe on the same sites as the Tesla chargers.

thelikelylad · 21-05-2018 2:07pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The battery is limited to 400v but if the amperage is raised at the charger end, it is possible to exceed the current max of ~70kW.

175A is the maximum for the Ioniq.

Kona can handle 200A or 80kW peak.

ELM327 · 21-05-2018 2:23pm

thelikelylad wrote: »

175A is the maximum for the Ioniq.

Kona can handle 200A or 80kW peak.

I haven't the opportunity to test that. Is there a spec sheet? I can't find one online. The drawback of owning a rarer EV I suppose.

All I can find are articles from 2016 claiming 200a

thelikelylad · 21-05-2018 2:40pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I haven't the opportunity to test that. Is there a spec sheet? I can't find one online. The drawback of owning a rarer EV I suppose.

All I can find are articles from 2016 claiming 200a

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116041_5-things-about-the-2019-hyundai-kona-electric-we-learned-at-the-ny-auto-show

(4) The CCS fast charging can operate at a slightly higher rate.

Hyundai measures charging current (amperes) rather than power (kilowatts), but given the pack in the Ioniq Electric, it was capable of fast-charging 173 amps.

That translated to a a rate of 70 kilowatts—for which a 100-kw charging output was required.

The new Kona Electric can handle a maximum current of 200 amps, meaning it can handle a peak power of 80 kw—still within the capabilities of new 100-kw CCS fast-charging sites found in Europe and South Korea today.

They interviewed a senior engineer for EV powertrains at Hyundai, so I'd say the info is pretty solid. But yeah never had the chance to test either. I observed something like 68kW at Midway but the power meter on the FCP isn't set up correctly apparently.

thelikelylad · 05-08-2018 6:15pm

A (incomplete) planning application was submitted on July 30th for 6 Ionity chargers at Cashel, J8/M8.

http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18600952/0

a High Power Electric Vehicle Charging Station consisting of the: (i) Installation of 6 no. electric vehicle charging bays, each comprising a parking space and electric vehicle charging unit, (ii) Associated revisions to existing car parking area, (iii) Installation of electric vehicle power units, (iv) Construction of a new substation, (v) Erection of illuminated signage, (vi) All associated lighting, infrastructure, site and development works

Also looks like Monasterevin, Co. Kildare and Gormanstown, Co. Meath are in the pipeline. Assuming J14/M7 and J7/M1.

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/german-company-backed-by-vw-and-mercedes-speeds-up-electric-car-charging-plan-for-ireland-jdb20fgjt

unkel · 05-08-2018 10:19pm

Thanks a million for the update. Looks like it is really happening very soon now. Very excited about these new chargers, that you no doubt can rely on and where you never have to wait.

ELM327 · 06-08-2018 8:04am

Yep, i'd gladly pay for that.
Pity there's not going to be more. My regular motorway trips are mainly M/N3 and M/N11, neither of which are served by these.

If you have a model 3 when they come out - and they have CCS as rumoured - you will really be able to top up anywhere , between the superchargers and these Ionity ones

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 8:48am

ELM327 wrote: »

Yep, i'd gladly pay for that.
Pity there's not going to be more. My regular motorway trips are mainly M/N3 and M/N11, neither of which are served by these.

If you have a model 3 when they come out - and they have CCS as rumoured - you will really be able to top up anywhere , between the superchargers and these Ionity ones

My fingers are crossed the M3 will get one......

It's a bit of a black hole at the moment.

Based on the planning permission they seem to position along motorway's which makes sense.

One in Maghera would make sense as long term Virginia will have to be by passed and the plans I seen in 1991 starts the by pass just past Maghera :P

jhegarty · 06-08-2018 10:12am

thelikelylad wrote: »

A (incomplete) planning application was submitted on July 30th for 6 Ionity chargers at Cashel, J8/M8.

http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18600952/0

Also looks like Monasterevin, Co. Kildare and Gormanstown, Co. Meath are in the pipeline. Assuming J14/M7 and J7/M1.

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/german-company-backed-by-vw-and-mercedes-speeds-up-electric-car-charging-plan-for-ireland-jdb20fgjt

Correct distance from Cork for a 20kwh car to get there comfortably.

Good call on location.

ELM327 · 06-08-2018 10:17am

jhegarty wrote: »

Correct distance from Cork for a 20kwh car to get there comfortably.

Good call on location.

I don't think they are considering 20kWh cars tbh.

I've been reading their blurbs and they generally specify that "cars must be capable of charging at these speeds". I'm not even sure reading that line if the Ioniq qualifies. Depends on how stringently they apply that I guess.

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 10:21am

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't think they are considering 20kWh cars tbh.

I've been reading their blurbs and they generally specify that "cars must be capable of charging at these speeds". I'm not even sure reading that line if the Ioniq qualifies. Depends on how stringently they apply that I guess.

I would guess they are going to limit the charger to the companies that are part of the group.

Does it specify anywhere they will let any car plug into them?

liamog · 06-08-2018 3:16pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I would guess they are going to limit the charger to the companies that are part of the group.

Does it specify anywhere they will let any car plug into them?

Can't imagine that happening at all, in particular would not be legal in a number of EU countries.

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 3:17pm

liamog wrote: »

Can't imagine that happening at all, in particular would not be legal in a number of EU countries.

Is that not what Tesla are doing? no other cars can use their fast chargers?

liamog · 06-08-2018 3:20pm

For instance in the UK, a single manufacturer is allowed to restrict access. But if Tesla made a deal allowing any other manufacturer e.g. Jaguar to use SuperChargers they'd then be required to install CCS and allow public access.

liamog · 06-08-2018 3:25pm

(2) A recharging or refuelling point is accessible to the public if it is—
(a)intended for use by members of the general public (including those situated in public car parks, whether or not those car parks are available only to consumers of specific goods or services); and
(b)not intended for—
(i)exclusive use in respect of a vehicle produced by a specific manufacturer;
(ii)use by persons engaged in specific occupations;
(iii)use by persons whilst at their place of employment (including visitors); or
(iv)exclusive use by occupiers of, or visitors to, residential premises.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/897/regulation/2/made

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 3:26pm

liamog wrote: »

For instance in the UK, a single manufacturer is allowed to restrict access. But if Tesla made a deal allowing any other manufacturer e.g. Jaguar to use SuperChargers they'd then be required to install CCS and allow public access.

I hope your right....if I do buy a Kona/Niro it would be handy

Somehow I expect they have a way around it. Pointless the companies putting money into this project if I can rock up in Hyundai/Kia and plug it in

DrPhilG · 06-08-2018 4:15pm

Seems like a huge effort and investment installing the system to then block Hyundai and Kia from using it. Given that they are charging for use, why block prospective customers?

ELM327 · 06-08-2018 4:22pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Seems like a huge effort and investment installing the system to then block Hyundai and Kia from using it. Given that they are charging for use, why block prospective customers?

They wont be.
One of their promo pictures shows a GM car charging and in accordance with the list here http://www.ionity.eu/ they are not part of the group

liamog · 06-08-2018 5:18pm

ELM327 wrote: »

They wont be.
One of their promo pictures shows a GM car charging and in accordance with the list here http://www.ionity.eu/ they are not part of the group

There are also videos of Ioniqs charging at the Ionity chargers in Germany.

Ionity is a commercial network with its seed funding coming from the manufactures alliance. Just like Shell/BP have bought networks and a few of the big European energy companies are getting into the game.

Dardania · 06-08-2018 5:58pm

Yeah, it should be a planning condition here to require open access. Set the expectations straight from day 1 so we don't have fragmentation

liamog · 06-08-2018 6:27pm

Dardania wrote: »

Yeah, it should be a planning condition here to require open access. Set the expectations straight from day 1 so we don't have fragmentation

All comes down to the definition of public access in the Alternative Fuels Directive that we still haven't transcribed.

I actually quite like the UK definition, though I would remove the exclusion for single manufacturer networks as I don't think they are a sustainable idea.

Sabre Man · 06-08-2018 7:04pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is that not what Tesla are doing? no other cars can use their fast chargers?

That's not Tesla's fault.
https://electrek.co/2017/06/19/tesla-supercharger-sharing-automakers/

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 7:35pm

Sabre Man wrote: »

That's not Tesla's fault.
https://electrek.co/2017/06/19/tesla-supercharger-sharing-automakers/

From the Tesla pro website :P

It never is Tesla's fault

Sabre Man · 06-08-2018 8:46pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

From the Tesla pro website :P

It never is Tesla's fault

Do you have a source that says otherwise?

ED E · 06-08-2018 9:09pm

When Circle K took over my local service station they spent a good 10 days revamping it. Most of that time was spent ripping out the almost brand new pumps with card readers to put in ones with no pay at pump. How much does that cost in labor and parts? Lots of safety regs and certification involved = €€€€€.

If you put something in that will make people loiter at their branches for 10-15 minutes with the Boston Donuts under their nose they will JUMP at it. The big roadblock I'd see is the fees required by the ESB to add capacity to their supply. Bring that down and you might well make it very viable.

BTW is anyone actually building forecourts? I've only really seen closures and rebrands, very very few new openings.

patsryan · 06-08-2018 9:34pm

There are a few new motorway service stations but no major rural / urban ones.

CCS will likely become the standard across Europe first and the world second.

As far as I can see, the locations so far are going to be

Circle K Cashel M8
Texaco J14 Mayfield M8
Circle K City North J3 M1

Shefwedfan · 06-08-2018 9:58pm

Sabre Man wrote: »

Do you have a source that says otherwise?

Have you seen any car apart from a Tesla plug into their superchargers? :P

07-08-2018 2:15am

It's a real shame the new Applegreen on the N7 has no chargers , it would be a good location.

patsryan · 08-08-2018 10:38am

Mad_Lad I believe there was supposed to be an ESB unit here but ecars ran out of the €20 million allocated to them from the CER and €6 million in EU grants in 2016 so no new units were installed until the goverment allocated €10 million towards new infrastructure this year.

The ESB did have a tender out recently for new chargers, which is begining to bear fruit in the form of existing units being replaced (e.g. Copley St, Cork.

recently got an efacec SCP)

Its unlikely we will see any new locations until the existing network is restored back to a working condition as a result of the tender.

Heck its unlikely we will see any new locations from ecars as the CRU recommend ecars to sell the network

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/202438
https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/CRU17283-Decision-paper-on-ESBN-Electric-Vehicle-Pilot-Associated-Assets.pdf

08-08-2018 11:42pm

It's all just a shambles. Complete and utter shambles. And the Government need a kick in the hole !

patsryan · 09-08-2018 11:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's all just a shambles. Complete and utter shambles. And the Government need a kick in the hole !

Don’t get me started on that story!

As I’m sure you know it was a “pilot project” or game to the ESB funded by the electricity payers of Ireland through the CRU.

After 2 years the CRU said sell it, but for those two years people still expected the ESB to invest there own money in expanding the network they didn’t own without being guaranteed a return on their investment.

Expanding the network was sucide from a business prospect, but they should at least have maintained the existing network better.

On the Government side of things, they can’t directly build a charger network either I believe because otherwise they would beach EU laws about being anti-competitive / state aid.

They could go about it in a round about way however such as make grants available to any public / private body to build a charger network (like they have) and have companies / organisations like Transport Infrastructure Ireland or the ESB (who have) put a tender out for the money.

This prevents it from being anti-competitive / state aid because it’s open to even one then.

Casati · 15-08-2018 8:30am

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

ELM327 · 15-08-2018 8:41am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

petrol/diesel profit is generally only 1c-2c/litre.
However you'd need to pay for the cost of the electricity (say 18 c/kWh to allow for day rates and higher MIC costs).
You'd also have to pay for the land where the charger is on, the upgraded wiring etc
You'd also have to pay for each charger (50k min).
You'd also need a backend software and the ability to update it, and a customer service support.

All that has to be paid for before breakeven.

You can see why in the UK they are between 25-49p/kWh

Casati · 15-08-2018 8:52am

ELM327 wrote: »

petrol/diesel profit is generally only 1c-2c/litre.
However you'd need to pay for the cost of the electricity (say 18 c/kWh to allow for day rates and higher MIC costs).
You'd also have to pay for the land where the charger is on, the upgraded wiring etc
You'd also have to pay for each charger (50k min).
You'd also need a backend software and the ability to update it, and a customer service support.

All that has to be paid for before breakeven.

You can see why in the UK they are between 25-49p/kWh

Okay if they are 25 to 49p in the U.K then with Irish costs and desired profit I’d say it’s safe to say it will be a lot higher than that but hopefully not so expensive that it costs as much per km to run as a diesel

unkel · 15-08-2018 8:53am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites?

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

Casati wrote: »

I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)

ELM327 · 15-08-2018 8:56am

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)

Yes but the dwell time is much longer.

Someone filling up with petrol is there only 5 minutes but in that time they can buy a coffee or a bar or a paper or a carwash. There's no shortage of retail space as there's multiple pumps and it doesnt take long to fill up

Not only are the EV chargers so expensive, the dwell time is too long. IE for 1 petrol pump the station could get 5-10 cars in an hour. More at busy times. The EV charger is 30 minutes average per car. So even if there's a queue that's only 2 per hour max.

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 8:58am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

It will be 1 million euros

unkel · 15-08-2018 9:15am

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but the dwell time is much longer.

Aye. And because of that it would be much more reasonable to expect a charge per time and per kWh

Like 50c/minute + 50c/kWh or something like that

That's not the model that Fastned picked though, although back when they started no car could charge faster than 45kW, so it was much of a muchness

Personally I don't really care what they would charge. I'd happily pay EUR1 per minute + EUR1 per kWh if I can 100% rely on the service and would never have to wait

Ionity charging network

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