Delivery driver sues pub for defamation after barman said €10 note was fake.

Jimbob1977 · 11-02-2018 1:01pm

Reminds me of the 'litmus configuration test' from Midnight Run

De Niro and Grodin at their best.

S. Goodspeed · 11-02-2018 1:09pm

This is almost as absurd as the woman who won compo for intentionally making it look like she was stealing a bottle of wine from a shop. Carried in a bottle she bought earlier that day and unfortunately/ coincidentally left it on the shelf beside other similar bottles of wine in the second shop. When she picked it back up and tried to leave the shop the shop keeper for some crazy reason questioned if she was going to for the bottle. Cue slander and libel and embarrassment and anxiety and compensation.

It is very hard to understand why judges are being so soft in these cases. My suspicion is they don’t want to discourage cases because cases mean more work for them and their solicitor friends. Very sad if that is the case.

Dravokivich · 11-02-2018 1:35pm

kneemos wrote: »

The barman could be confiscating real cash though.

They don't give false negatives.

my3cents · 11-02-2018 2:28pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

They don't give false negatives.

They fortunately give far more false negatives than they do false positives, I tested a few for a project I worked on (same sort of ones as you see in the self service in Tesco and Dunnes). Used to get 1k of mixed used notes from the bank and sit feeding them into a machine about a dozen times then go and try and find somewhere that would swap that 1k of notes for another just to try and use as many different notes a possible.

Never had a false positives but had thousands of false negatives. Provided there weren't obviously damaged notes from a petrol station gave the most false negatives which was due to small amounts of petrol on them, under UV they looked very different. If you didn't know better a UV light behind the counter would also make you think there was something wrong with a good note a machine rejected.

At the end of the day you have to reject rather than accept anything you think may be fake particularly if you may end up handing the same note out in change.

Its not that you know the note is fake its that you don't know for sure its genuine.

I wonder if legally saying you cannot be sure a note is genuine is the same as saying its fake. To my mind if you say it may not be genuine you are leaving open the prospect of being proved wrong and that the note is indeed genuine however once you state its a fake there is no going back.

Stonedpilot · 11-02-2018 2:54pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

If he has feck all money or assets, it won't really matter if costs are awarded against him as he won't be able to pay them.

I'm surprised that the pub appealed €5k. It's highly likely that if the pub win, they will end up paying their own costs which could easily be well in excess of the circuit court costs.

He has no assets delivery driving is basically slave labour not even close to minimum wage. You get like €25 for the night, tips and drop payments like €2 a go. So €50 for the night minus petrol €15 = .€35 a shift. Same for deliveroo etc. Exploitation incorporated.

Fair play to him take the money and run. The way some go on here "assets" etc is a joke. Swear he was Denis O Brien or something.

Trust me if hes delivery driving he has nothing. Nothing of value financial anyway.

endacl · 11-02-2018 6:39pm

S. Goodspeed wrote: »

My suspicion is they don’t want to discourage cases because cases mean more work for them.

You are aware that a judicial appointment is a salaried position?

They get paid whether they're on the bench or not. Your suspicion is silly.

wyf437gn6btzue · 11-02-2018 9:43pm

Stonedpilot wrote: »

He has no assets delivery driving is basically slave labour not even close to minimum wage. You get like €25 for the night, tips and drop payments like €2 a go. So €50 for the night minus petrol €15 = .€35 a shift. Same for deliveroo etc. Exploitation incorporated.

Fair play to him take the money and run. The way some go on here "assets" etc is a joke. Swear he was Denis O Brien or something.

Trust me if hes delivery driving he has nothing. Nothing of value financial anyway.

What a lousy attitude, fair play to him for what? Pursuing & Relieving an honest business of €5,000 for nothing essentially?

You`re trying to justify it by saying he earns x amount, last time I checked what he earns is his problem.

You should go and seek out one of the many business men and women facing the prospect of having to fold up their business this year because of people hopping on the claim bandwagon to get a few bob for nothing, and get their take on things.

Not only do these people cast doubt on the genuine claims & cases of personal injury, they make life hard for the rest of us plebeians when we have to pay inflated insurance premiums to cover the ever growing costs of their nonsensical claims.

punisher5112 · 11-02-2018 9:47pm

Doubt the story of him been a delivery driver as by the time he could get out of the car the food would be eaten....

TheChizler · 11-02-2018 10:09pm

Did the pub not argue that they weren't claiming that he was aware the note was fake? Why not say they only thought that somebody else had passed him the note and this had nothing to do with his character?

I wonder is there more to this than we're hearing, was there a shouting match or something where he was loudly accused of all sorts, or something like that?

Captain Obvious · 11-02-2018 10:35pm

Gatling wrote: »

Even worse is claiming that the local Garda did tests on the note to confirm it was genuine ,only for local Gardai to take the stand as tell the court no such tests are done at any stations and they were not asked by anyone on the particular day at the station ,
So it is blatantly obvious he's lying about what he is claiming,
But expect him to receive compensation of some sort

And the Garda part is irrelevant because there is nothing to say he didn't ditch the dud note as soon as he left the pub and produced a different one at the station.

old_aussie · 11-02-2018 11:57pm

Odhinn wrote: »

"An actionable defamatory statement has three ingredients:

it must be published,
it must refer to the complainant and
it must be false."
https://www.lawyer.ie/defamation/

What the ****

Did you actually read the article?

boombang · 12-02-2018 12:13am

There are so many of these crazy stories. The more I read about them the more I believe the legal industry is operating a implicit racket against the public. It's tantamount to wholescale fraud in my view. I know others won't agree, but it's now firmly my belief. The sad thing is that no one individual or group has a strong enough incentive to take on the thieving lawyers and the larceny will persist.

fleet_admiral · 12-02-2018 12:15am

Hey Leonard, leave my local alone

Mr. teddywinkles · 12-02-2018 2:31pm

Give him the 5000 in counterfeit.

mikhail · 12-02-2018 3:11pm

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Give him the 5000 in counterfeit.

Counterfeit? Monopoly money. When he complains, sue him for defamation.

Depending on how the bar handled this, I might buy that the lad's been defamed, but €5000? I should invest in a pitchfork and flaming torch emporium.

12-02-2018 3:18pm

Stonedpilot wrote: »

He has no assets delivery driving is basically slave labour not even close to minimum wage. You get like €25 for the night, tips and drop payments like €2 a go. So €50 for the night minus petrol €15 = .€35 a shift. Same for deliveroo etc. Exploitation incorporated.

Fair play to him take the money and run. The way some go on here "assets" etc is a joke. Swear he was Denis O Brien or something.

Trust me if hes delivery driving he has nothing. Nothing of value financial anyway.

Jesus, 7 nights a week for €245 a week, tough going.

rawn · 12-02-2018 4:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Stonedpilot wrote: »

He has no assets delivery driving is basically slave labour not even close to minimum wage. You get like €25 for the night, tips and drop payments like €2 a go. So €50 for the night minus petrol €15 = .€35 a shift. Same for deliveroo etc. Exploitation incorporated.

Fair play to him take the money and run. The way some go on here "assets" etc is a joke. Swear he was Denis O Brien or something.

Trust me if hes delivery driving he has nothing. Nothing of value financial anyway.

Jesus, 7 nights a week for €245 a week, tough going.

My dad used to do it 3 nights a week, the money is not that bad. 25e, around 2e per delivery, roughly 6 deliveries an hour plus tips...

Odyssey 2005 · 12-02-2018 4:32pm

Hope the revenue are following this story. I'd hate to think he may be claiming jobseekers allowance and doing food deliveries in the evening.

12-02-2018 4:41pm

rawn wrote: »

My dad used to do it 3 nights a week, the money is not that bad. 25e, around 2e per delivery, roughly 6 deliveries an hour plus tips...

As far as I am aware it changes (massively) from place to place (whoever you're delivering for, that is).

Some places give decent money, others don't.

Guy:Incognito · 12-02-2018 5:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As far as I am aware it changes (massively) from place to place (whoever you're delivering for, that is).

Some places give decent money, others don't.

Didn't you listen to stonedpilot. They are all poor slaves earning a pittance and should be encouraged to stick it to the evil publican (whatever it is the pub has done to keep delivery drivers down is anyone's guess) by making false claims.

Deise Vu · 12-02-2018 5:32pm

I just thought I'd throw this out there but what dopey forger would forge a €10 note? The same work as a €50 which my many years of high finance tells me is a 400% greater return. I understand it would be easier to shift a €10 but you have to balance that against having to pass one off five times versus one €50 for the same return. Plus the paper, the printing etc.

I don't know what my point is (whats new?:D:D:D) but surely the barman never had a dodgy €10 passed before. Unless it was a cheap photocopy, I can't imagine any self-respecting forger wasting his time on one.

12-02-2018 5:36pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I just thought I'd throw this out there but what dopey forger would forge a €10 note? The same work as a €50 which my many years of high finance tells me is a 400% greater return. I understand it would be easier to shift a €10 but you have to balance that against having to pass one off five times versus one €50 for the same return. Plus the paper, the printing etc.

I don't know what my point is (whats new?:D:D:D) but surely the barman never had a dodgy €10 passed before. Unless it was a cheap photocopy, I can't imagine any self-respecting forger wasting his time on one.

Plenty about. Though I've noticed more dud 20s. I've had duds from the Post Office ffs.

my3cents · 12-02-2018 5:50pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I just thought I'd throw this out there but what dopey forger would forge a €10 note? The same work as a €50 which my many years of high finance tells me is a 400% greater return. I understand it would be easier to shift a €10 but you have to balance that against having to pass one off five times versus one €50 for the same return. Plus the paper, the printing etc.

I don't know what my point is (whats new?:D:D:D) but surely the barman never had a dodgy €10 passed before. Unless it was a cheap photocopy, I can't imagine any self-respecting forger wasting his time on one.

The reason being you are more likely to pass a fake €10 in a crowded busy establishment than you are a €50.

Go to the next extreme a €100 note and you'd be hard pressed to pass off a near perfect fake because they are so rarely used they nearly always get checked.

Because I worked testing note checking machines I used to try and get hold of fakes that shops had ended up taking in and the worst fake I have ever seen was €5. It was probably copied on a school colour printer and passed during lunch time in the local supervalu when the shop was packed full of kids. It was so bad you'd need to have been blind not to spot it but when under pressure with big queues and people (kids) pushing checkout operators do less checking.

The other side of the coin (:o) is that you are swapping one large risk passing off a €50 for 5 smaller risks passing 5 €10's

12-02-2018 5:58pm

my3cents wrote: »

The other side of the coin (:o) is that you are swapping one large risk passing off a €50 for 5 smaller risks passing 5 €10's

True. Depends on context I suppose. Who's gonna think anything of a tenner unless it's truly awful? And if you're caught just the once or twice in different places it's not a big deal, sure it's only a tenner, easier to brush off.

BattleCorp · 12-02-2018 6:31pm

mikhail wrote: »

Counterfeit? Monopoly money. When he complains, sue him for defamation.

Depending on how the bar handled this, I might buy that the lad's been defamed, but €5000?

I'm not commenting on whether or not the guy is genuine or not but how much is someone's good name worth?

It's certainly worth more than €5k.

Stonedpilot · 12-02-2018 6:57pm

rawn wrote: »

My dad used to do it 3 nights a week, the money is not that bad. 25e, around 2e per delivery, roughly 6 deliveries an hour plus tips...

6 an hour hmmmmmm.

That's 10 minutes to wait for food, back into car off again and back in 10 minute!. Not a hope, unless person is doing deliveries in a helicopter.

It's usually 3/4 an hour if you are very lucky and fast.

The money is absolutely terrible.

You seriously saying €25 a shift isn't bad?. That's like €4/5 an hour. It's beyond shyt.

It's HALF minimum wage!

rawn · 12-02-2018 7:08pm

Stonedpilot wrote: »

rawn wrote: »

My dad used to do it 3 nights a week, the money is not that bad. 25e, around 2e per delivery, roughly 6 deliveries an hour plus tips...

6 an hour hmmmmmm.

That's 10 minutes to wait for food, back into car off again and back in 10 minute!. Not a hope, unless person is doing deliveries in a helicopter.

It's usually 3/4 an hour if you are very lucky and fast.

The money is absolutely terrible.

You seriously saying €25 a shift isn't bad?. That's like €4/5 an hour. It's beyond shyt.

It's HALF minimum wage!

No because you keep the delivery money too. And the driver doesn't go out with one delivery at a time it's minimum 3 unless it's mad quiet. It's MORE than minimum wages on a normal night. And it's local deliveries so it's not like you're driving all over Dublin. It's really not bad money I don't know why your insisting it is.

And even if he was earning so little then it does not make it ok to rip off the pub for some easy cash.

Guy:Incognito · 13-02-2018 4:23pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not commenting on whether or not the guy is genuine or not but how much is someone's good name worth?

It's certainly worth more than €5k.

Good name to who? If he hadn't gone to court, the only people who'd have heard anything were whoever was within earshot in the pub.

Would your name be ruined anyway if people you know heard you went in to the pub, handed in a tenner and were told it's fake, then said OK and went on your way?

Unless they know you're a criminal or scumbag of some sort, most would just assume you got it in change and never noticed.

BattleCorp · 13-02-2018 5:06pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Good name to who? If he hadn't gone to court, the only people who'd have heard anything were whoever was within earshot in the pub.

Once other people hear it, it's enough to defame you. I don't know the facts of the case other than what is reported here but it does seem that there were others within earshot.

Would your name be ruined anyway if people you know heard you went in to the pub, handed in a tenner and were told it's fake, then said OK and went on your way?

Unless they know you're a criminal or scumbag of some sort, most would just assume you got it in change and never noticed.

I've highlighted an important word in your last sentence. That word is MOST. If MOST people would assume that you got it in change and never noticed, then logically it would also mean that others would not assume that you accidentally received it in change somewhere else. As long as some people believe that he was trying to pass off forged notes on purpose, then he has been defamed.

I think it has been missed by a lot of people in this thread (not necessarily yourself) but the Circuit Court has already agreed that the man has been defamed. The pub are appealing it to the High Court. Crazy really because it will end up costing the pub a lot more than the original €5k awarded to yer man.

TheChizler · 13-02-2018 5:49pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've highlighted an important word in your last sentence. That word is MOST. If MOST people would assume that you got it in change and never noticed, then logically it would also mean that others would not assume that you accidentally received it in change somewhere else. As long as some people believe that he was trying to pass off forged notes on purpose, then he has been defame.

For the likes of defamation isn't your reputation supposed to have been damaged in the eyes of a 'reasonable person', not 'some people'?

BattleCorp · 13-02-2018 6:34pm

TheChizler wrote: »

For the likes of defamation isn't your reputation supposed to have been damaged in the eyes of a 'reasonable person', not 'some people'?

The Circuit Court believed that he had been defamed.

If events transpired as the delivery driver said, he was also told to 'get out' by the barman. If that happened in combination with being told that the €10 was fake, then a reasonable person would think that the man was accused of trying to pass off a forgery as genuine.

dr.fuzzenstein · 13-02-2018 7:08pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

The Circuit Court believed that he had been defamed.

Those circuit court judges do be making some strange decisions after their liquid lunch.
Seriously, they're insane alcoholics most of them. At least going by their decisions on compensation.

wyf437gn6btzue · 13-02-2018 7:52pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Once other people hear it, it's enough to defame you. I don't know the facts of the case other than what is reported here but it does seem that there were others within earshot.

I've highlighted an important word in your last sentence. That word is MOST. If MOST people would assume that you got it in change and never noticed, then logically it would also mean that others would not assume that you accidentally received it in change somewhere else. As long as some people believe that he was trying to pass off forged notes on purpose, then he has been defamed.

I think it has been missed by a lot of people in this thread (not necessarily yourself) but the Circuit Court has already agreed that the man has been defamed. The pub are appealing it to the High Court. Crazy really because it will end up costing the pub a lot more than the original €5k awarded to yer man.

I`d imagine the pub are appealing the decision in an attempt to restore their own good name, I`m sure their own legal representation stipulated the potential costs within doing so

Would it not be logical to think that if you were so worried about your good name, why would you go through a court with a case (thats so downright silly) that you are near guaranteed national coverage on it? So instead of a few local whispers, people the chap doesn't even know is having a good oul giggle at him.

What about the pubs good name?

BattleCorp · 13-02-2018 8:08pm

Tori Hollow Income wrote: »

I`d imagine the pub are appealing the decision in an attempt to restore their own good name, I`m sure their own legal representation stipulated the potential costs within doing so

Would it not be logical to think that if you were so worried about your good name, why would you go through a court with a case (thats so downright silly) that you are near guaranteed national coverage on it? So instead of a few local whispers, people the chap doesn't even know is having a good oul giggle at him.

What about the pubs good name?

Pure speculation here but maybe the man reckoned that he had already been defamed at a local level and it's at local level where being defamed would have most effect. The prospect of compensation probably played a part in his decision.

Yes, the pub is entitled to its good name but the pub didn't take him to court or even claim that he defamed them.

BattleCorp · 13-02-2018 8:09pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Those circuit court judges do be making some strange decisions after their liquid lunch.
Seriously, they're insane alcoholics most of them. At least going by their decisions on compensation.

The max in the circuit court is €75k. €60k for personal injury.

scamalert · 13-02-2018 8:19pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

The max in the circuit court is €75k. €60k for personal injury.

look at his pic clearly injured walking barrel. so whats to stop someone pulling same scam, wave fake tenner, be in luck outside garda station swap note come back sue place= free cash.

how is this done any harm to him, were the people in the pub all his friends, he didnt have another 10er on him.

Id be pissed off about being told ive holding fake but not to the point to make national news as biggest muppet.

wyf437gn6btzue · 13-02-2018 8:56pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Pure speculation here but maybe the man reckoned that he had already been defamed at a local level and it's at local level where being defamed would have most effect. The prospect of compensation probably played a part in his decision.

Yes, the pub is entitled to its good name but the pub didn't take him to court or even claim that he defamed them.

Isn't that an intrinsic part of the claims process though? Its reasonable to expect the pub will have some sort of damage to reputation as a result of the courts proceedings?

dr.fuzzenstein · 15-02-2018 7:18am

If the ruling is overturned, could the pub sue the delivery driver for defamation?
I can only hope so, because there should be serious consequences for greedy bastards like him who sue because they smell money.
In general the worst that can happen in Ireland is "ah hard luck, but maybe next time"

TheChizler · 15-02-2018 10:31am

BattleCorp wrote: »

The Circuit Court believed that he had been defamed.

If events transpired as the delivery driver said, he was also told to 'get out' by the barman. If that happened in combination with being told that the €10 was fake, then a reasonable person would think that the man was accused of trying to pass off a forgery as genuine.

Possibly, but I'm questioning your assertion that the test relates to some people, not reasonable people.

To address your second point, why do we even have an appeals process if we should put so much weight on the circuit court's opinion?

dr.fuzzenstein · 17-02-2018 2:01pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Possibly, but I'm questioning your assertion that the test relates to some people, not reasonable people.

To address your second point, why do we even have an appeals process if we should put so much weight on the circuit court's opinion?

Because every verdict the circuit court gives out is based on rock-solid reasoning, evidence, years of experience and expert testimony.
The judges are so smart that we Normos with our average brains couldn't hope to understand their masterful and almost God-like command of the law, so we should not even question their verdicts or cast any doubt upon them.
Sure, some of those verdicts seem odd, contrived, insane even or not even based in reality, but see my points above.
Unless they get overturned on appeal, then they were all just a bunch of horseshi*t...
Like this one. But dare us mortals not question! It's a bit like the attitude towards politics in the 50's, "shure they know better than us mere mortals, who am I to question them"

dr.fuzzenstein · 20-03-2018 2:10pm

Has there been any update in this case?
Google yields nothing.

Lux23 · 20-03-2018 2:16pm

Odhinn wrote: »

I thought defamation had to be written/published...

Nope, defamation is written, spoken, broadcasted, posted on FB etc., etc.. It used to be that slander was spoken and libel was written/recorded, but those terms no longer exist under the law now.

If you have a problem with this case, then you have a problem with our defamation laws because you can win a defamation case even if what was said about you was true!

Samuel T. Cogley · 20-03-2018 2:26pm

Lux23 wrote: »

Nope, defamation is written, spoken, broadcasted, posted on FB etc., etc.. It used to be that slander was spoken and libel was written/recorded, but those terms no longer exist under the law now.

If you have a problem with this case, then you have a problem with our defamation laws because you can win a defamation case even if what was said about you was true!

Truth is a complete defence, no?

16.— (1) It shall be a defence (to be known and in this Act referred to as the “ defence of truth ”) to a defamation action for the defendant to prove that the statement in respect of which the action was brought is true in all material respects.

(2) In a defamation action in respect of a statement containing 2 or more distinct allegations against the plaintiff, the defence of truth shall not fail by reason only of the truth of every allegation not being proved, if the words not proved to be true do not materially injure the plaintiff’s reputation having regard to the truth of the remaining allegations.

Sidebaro · 20-03-2018 2:33pm

Christ, if he sees this thread he'll be rolling in it!

the_syco · 20-03-2018 5:07pm

dense wrote: »

Establishments do need to protect themselves against counterfeit notes, but it needs to be done discreetly, not as a triumphant announcement to anyone in earshot if there is a suspicion.

Anyone in earshot = anyone next to him ordering drink.

The pub should have confiscated the note, and called the Gardai. Letting him walk away cost them dearly.

Deise Vu wrote: »

I understand it would be easier to shift a €10 but you have to balance that against having to pass one off five times versus one €50 for the same return. Plus the paper, the printing etc.

Most shops would have policies to check large notes. Paying something in 5 tenners would get less scrutiny than someone trying to pay with a 50 note.

Have seen a counterfeit $2 coin over here in Toronto. They feel lighter, but imagine the amount someone would need to produce to turn a profit!

BattleCorp wrote: »

Crazy really because it will end up costing the pub a lot more than the original €5k awarded to yer man.

In the short term, yes. In the long term, if they don't fight it, I'd say the scumbags will be using free legal aid to get a few grand off them them here and there. Heck, anyone banned could take a case against the place!

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-04-2018 8:13am

the_syco wrote: »

In the short term, yes. In the long term, if they don't fight it, I'd say the scumbags will be using free legal aid to get a few grand off them them here and there. Heck, anyone banned could take a case against the place!

I remember that in the mid to late 90's car insurance had gotten out of control because claims were just being paid out without question.
After that a tougher line was taken with claims bring contestants more thoroughly and ads on TV and radio to shop fraudsters.
This also lead to the introduction of the injuries board.
We're kind of back now at "just pay out and make them go away", which, it could be argued, hasn't been great.
If all claims were rigorously tested instead of just paid out, it would he cheaper in the long run because it deters fakers and chancers.

edit:
Any news on our delivery guy?

silverharp · 11-04-2018 8:32am

a fast food delivery man? food taster more like it or else some of his deliveries arrive a little light

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-04-2018 2:53pm

silverharp wrote: »

a fast food delivery man? food taster more like it or else some of his deliveries arrive a little light

Now, now. You should not make light of this weighty issue.

dr.fuzzenstein · 01-07-2018 7:56am

Well, it's very sad for the pub as the high court has upheld this idiotic award.
I applaud the pub for trying to go against the madness. But the courts have upheld their role as money fountains for idiots.
Sadly this hands more power to scrotes and shambags. They can go around stealing, robbing, handing out fake money, but no one can touch them, detain them and now you can't even say anything to them.
Having said that, I'm not saying Mr Nolan is any kind of criminal, he is merely an opportunist who smelled money, but it still sets a precedent. Unfortunately by trying to fight it, the pub managed to have it set in stone.
Next time I visit Ireland I'll print my own money.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/delivery-driver-awarded-5000-after-barman-said-10-note-he-used-to-pay-for-pint-was-fake-36989852.html

AlphabetCards · 01-07-2018 8:37am

Sad times for upstanding employees trying to protect their employers from fraud.

Delivery driver sues pub for defamation after barman said €10 note was fake.

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