BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Daith · 10-12-2018 1:19pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Those particular routes are waiting on the finalised Metrolink plans, some time in Q1 2019.

Thanks both.

MJohnston · 10-12-2018 11:48pm

This ain't Facebook lad

magicbastarder · 11-12-2018 3:09pm

what the effing what?

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1072117727085686784

CatInABox · 11-12-2018 3:13pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what the effing what?

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1072117727085686784

I might be missing something, are cyclists allowed on that section of the N3 now?

EDIT: Clarified a bit. I've just never seen cyclists along there, not saying they shouldn't be or anything.

cherryghost · 11-12-2018 3:14pm

That's flipping insane. 2 more lanes on each side! Just means the choke points at the M50 or down by Phoenix will be more exasperated. This doesnt solve the problem at all, it just moves it somewhere else!

CatInABox · 11-12-2018 3:22pm

cherryghost wrote: »

That's flipping insane. 2 more lanes on each side! Just means the choke points at the M50 or down by Phoenix will be more exasperated. This doesnt solve the problem at all, it just moves it somewhere else!

Yeah, I'm not sure I really see the point in this, as you say it'll move traffic onto the next bottleneck even faster, but those bottlenecks are so close that it'll back up onto the N3 again in no time.

Without removing traffic coming down the N3, this is be pretty pointless. Investing in a train line extension to Navan and significant park and ride upgrades would be more effective.

CatInABox · 11-12-2018 3:25pm

cherryghost wrote: »

That's flipping insane. 2 more lanes on each side! Just means the choke points at the M50 or down by Phoenix will be more exasperated. This doesnt solve the problem at all, it just moves it somewhere else!

Technically, it's only one extra car lane, with one new bus lane. This is from Blanch to the roundabout, which is already three lanes in each direction.

MJohnston · 11-12-2018 3:32pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I might be missing something, are cyclists allowed on that section of the N3 now?

EDIT: Clarified a bit. I've just never seen cyclists along there, not saying they shouldn't be or anything.

I'm not sure I've ever seen any, nor do I know if I would ever bother myself when the canal path route and the backroads are much better and safer.

But legally, I think they would be allowed to use anything that isn't a motorway?

magicbastarder · 11-12-2018 3:38pm

there was a video (shot from within a garda car) uploaded to garda traffic twitter showing a cyclist cycling on the N3 between the navan road train station and the halfway house during the bad snow around easter, as an example of a foolhardy lawbreaking cyclist.
caused a bit of amusement/bemusement because cycling is legal there. and IIRC - may have this wrong - the video was filmed from the driver's side of the car.

marno21 · 11-12-2018 3:41pm

D4M or D5M including the bus lane between Blanchardstown and the M50 makes sense, it keeps traffic segregated rather than having D3M til the lanes diverge like the N7 inbound after Newlands Cross. It reduces weaving and improves safety, there aren't really any "capacity increases" as the capacity of the M50 interchange or indeed the M50 will remain as is, and the N3 between Clonee and here is being widened to 3 lanes in either direction anyway.

CatInABox · 11-12-2018 3:42pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

there was a video (shot from within a garda car) uploaded to garda traffic twitter showing a cyclist cycling on the N3 between the navan road train station and the halfway house during the bad snow around easter, as an example of a foolhardy lawbreaking cyclist.
caused a bit of amusement/bemusement because cycling is legal there. and IIRC - may have this wrong - the video was filmed from the driver's side of the car.

Yeah, I saw that one, quite funny. They were rightfully lambasted.

In that article, it said cyclists are allowed to cycle on dual carriageways, but the section of the N3 between blanch and the M50 is three lanes, so I still don't know if they are allowed or not.

EDIT: I'm getting an education on the different names and classifications of roads in Ireland looking at this. So that section of the N3 is still classed as Dual Carriageway, and slightly morto now, I have to admit that I thought that the "dual" classification only ever applied to roads with 2 lanes going in each direction. Only reading about it there that I went "Dub, of course, you idiot." As I said, morto.

ED E · 11-12-2018 3:44pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, I saw that one, quite funny. They were rightfully lambasted.

In that article, it said cyclists are allowed to cycle on dual carriageways, but the section of the N3 between blanch and the M50 is three lanes, so I still don't know if they are allowed or not.

As far as I know only Motorways have a cycling prohibition, that section isn't even a HQDC which is the next best thing. Should be legal.

marno21 · 11-12-2018 3:50pm

The N3 between Clonee and the M50 may be redesignated motorway as part of the N3 Clonee-M50 scheme which has just started entering design. It's too early to be clear as to what exactly be done as part of that scheme.

cgcsb · 11-12-2018 3:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

The N3 between Clonee and the M50 may be redesignated motorway as part of the N3 Clonee-M50 scheme which has just started entering design. It's too early to be clear as to what exactly be done as part of that scheme.

Making all Dublin area N roads into motorways or R roads seems to be the thrust of current thinking anyway, I'd expect the same for the N7 also.

marno21 · 11-12-2018 3:54pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Making all Dublin area N roads into motorways or R roads seems to be the thrust of current thinking anyway, I'd expect the same for the N7 also.

The N7 will likely become a motorway (or some other fudge found) in order to make it TEN-T Core compliant.

L1011 · 11-12-2018 10:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

and IIRC - may have this wrong - the video was filmed from the driver's side of the car.

If the video was from a Garda car, it would be from a dashboard mounted camera not a handheld device.

howiya · 14-12-2018 1:05am

Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition

Seth Brundle · 14-12-2018 10:24am

howiya wrote: »

Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition

Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?

14-12-2018 10:35am

howiya wrote: »

Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition

Aodhan is the type of politician that doesn't like to let a bandwagon go by without him climbing aboard.

davetherave · 14-12-2018 1:07pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?

To call it banal would be an injustice to some of the other ****e efforts that our elected show up to the opening of an envelope representatives put in. It's just "Retain 14 bus route"

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1070572486260125696

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1065920784978378752

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsrpTHYXoAIibeS.jpg

The proposed #BusConnect changes will have a disproportionately negative effect on the Northside community it serves.

Doesn't say how or why.

Qrt · 14-12-2018 2:18pm

davetherave wrote: »

To call it banal would be an injustice to some of the other ****e efforts that our elected show up to the opening of an envelope representatives put in. It's just "Retain 14 bus route"

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1070572486260125696

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1065920784978378752

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsrpTHYXoAIibeS.jpg

Doesn't say how or why.

I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.

howiya · 14-12-2018 3:50pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?

I didn’t read it before disposing of it but I see others have answered

cdaly_ · 14-12-2018 4:42pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Aodhan is the type of politician that doesn't like to let a bandwagon go by without him climbing aboard.

Presumably only a No 14 bandwagon?

Podge_irl · 14-12-2018 4:53pm

Qrt wrote: »

I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.

Much more frequent orbitals which will also open up whole new areas of the city that are currently inaccessible by public transport without going into town.

There is about 1km of route going from a "direct" to "orbital" service. Of all the "Save the X" campaigns, this has to truly be the stupidest.

dublinman1990 · 14-12-2018 4:59pm

From 98fm. Just a summary of what was said during the committee hearing on Wednesday.

Travel times in Dublin will continue to get longer if the Bus Connects plan isn't introduced, according to The National Transport Authority.

The body has received 30,000 submissions on the proposal, and says re-designing the city's bus network by creating 16 new bus corridors is "vital" to tackle congestion.

NTA management are appearing before the Dáil’s Transport Committee this afternoon, to answer questions on how the plan would affect traffic, parking and front gardens of houses along the routes.

Some of the concerns raised include the changing of routes, frequency and the loss of space from some people's front gardens.

CEO Anne Graham has told the Transport Committee that it's vital some gardens are made smaller to make room for new bus lanes.

"On average, bus journeys will be reduced by up to 40-50%", she said.

If Bus Connects doesn't go ahead, she said "journey times will continue to get worse, and commuters will spend more time getting to and from work each day".

The four proposed routes subject to current public consultation connect the city centre with Blanchardstown, Clongriffin, Lucan and Swords.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, Chair of the Transport Committe, said "all stakeholders involved can agree that Dublin’s traffic congestion requires urgent reform and new thinking".

Over 1200 Dublin homeowners, who could lose part of their gardens under the Bus Connects Plan, will be notified by February next year.

The project, which would create 200 kilometres of bus and cycle lanes on 16 new routes, involves taking land off property owners to widen the roads.

The Dáil’s Transport Committee has heard claims people living along affected routes are living in limbo and cannot sell their homes.

https://www.98fm.com/news/dublin-commute-times-will-worsen-without-bus-connects-234994

Stephen15 · 14-12-2018 5:15pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

Presumably only a No 14 bandwagon?

Yes this is the nonsense all these types of politicians say. I like the rest of the changes but not the ones in my area. Just make a submission saying this is how could the changes in my area could be done better rather than just saying I want the <insert bus route number here> to remain. Tell what changes they could do to serve the area better.

Shedite27 · 14-12-2018 5:27pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes this is the nonsense all these types of politicians say. I like the rest of the changes but not the ones in my area. Just make a submission saying this is how could the changes in my area could be done better rather than just saying I want the <insert bus route number here> to remain. Tell what changes they could do to serve the area better.

If a bunch of randomers on a forum can see that it's nonsence, you can bet your backside so will the NTA. I'd imagine even Aodhan realises it's nonsense. It's just part of the game to help him (and all other politicians) get elected in 2020.

Don't waste your breath on it folks

salmocab · 14-12-2018 5:43pm

I heard the FF spokes man yesterday Lahart banging on about busses and he doesn’t think BC will happen. I’d like to know what the alternative is to BC surely it’s not to just keep going the way we are he’d have to be a simpleton to think that we can just keep going as we are but it’s not about BC it’s about being opposition they think being in opposition means opposing everything. I’ve no doubt if this we had a FF govt or anyone else they would be taking a different tack and your local FG lad would be starting a campaign.

Stephen15 · 14-12-2018 5:46pm

Tbh I still don't think the issue of Bus Connects is top of most oppostion politicians priorities. I have found that public transport is generally an issue that's fairly low on most politicians priorities.

monument · 16-12-2018 3:17pm

Qrt wrote: »

I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.

The northern section of the 14 bus is hardly "horrific urban sprawl" -- that's more nonsensical than the "save the 14" nonsense.

Qrt · 16-12-2018 3:39pm

monument wrote: »

The northern section of the 14 bus is hardly "horrific urban sprawl" -- that's more nonsensical than the "save the 14" nonsense.

A quick look on Google Street view showed me semi-d's...and more semi-d's...and more semi-d's, with low levels of permeability and a high emphasis on the car, i.e. the big driveways. Near-complete architectural homogeneity. That's urban sprawl in my eyes, even if it is the upper tier of density.

monument · 16-12-2018 4:32pm

Qrt wrote: »

A quick look on Google Street view showed me semi-d's...and more semi-d's...and more semi-d's, with low levels of permeability and a high emphasis on the car, i.e. the big driveways. Near-complete architectural homogeneity. That's urban sprawl in my eyes, even if it is the upper tier of density.

The more I hear people talk about "sprawl" the more I realise it's not a word that many people have a shared understanding of... making it almost meaningless and clearly not very useful.

Relating to BusConnects, can you please explain what driveways, semi-ds, or architecture has to do with the ability to provide buses? To put it in context, this area has a higher square km population density than anywhere near the green line Luas south of the Dodder.

There might be some low levels of permeability, but overall it would be middle range at worst -- there's loads of lanes, walkways etc in the area of the route I know best that give bus users more permeability than car drivers.

Qrt · 17-12-2018 12:55am

monument wrote: »

The more I hear people talk about "sprawl" the more I realise it's not a word that many people have a shared understanding of... making it almost meaningless and clearly not very useful.

Relating to BusConnects, can you please explain what driveways, semi-ds, or architecture has to do with the ability to provide buses? To put it in context, this area has a higher square km population density than anywhere near the green line Luas south of the Dodder.

There might be some low levels of permeability, but overall it would be middle range at worst -- there's loads of lanes, walkways etc in the area of the route I know best that give bus users more permeability than car drivers.

Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

The area reminds me of areas like Kingswood, Kilnamanagh and Firhouse. All areas of semi-d homogeneity and large driveways. Kingswood has a bus every hour and ten, with Kilnamanagh having no bus and Firhouse set to be served my an orbital only route. I just based by judgement on that.

Where are you getting the density map? I’ve tried to find one for ages!

markpb · 17-12-2018 1:10am

Qrt wrote: »

Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

Driveways are an indication of the design of each plot, they’re a poor indication of the overall density of the area and they’re absolutely no indication of the permeability or of the suitability for quality public transport. Ironically, they’re more likely to see the road freed for moving vehicle use instead of parking so they might not be all bad.

In my experience (from living there a long time ago), demand for public transport was high but it was then severely compromised by the Beaumont/Collins junction and the Collins/Malahide junction. There’s no realistic solution to either of those.

Qrt · 17-12-2018 1:15am

markpb wrote: »

Driveways are an indication of the design of each plot, they’re a poor indication of the overall density of the area and they’re absolutely no indication of the permeability or of the suitability for quality public transport. Ironically, they’re more likely to see the road freed for moving vehicle use instead of parking so they might not be all bad.

In my experience (from living there a long time ago), demand for public transport was high but it was then severely compromised by the Beaumont/Collins junction and the Collins/Malahide junction. There’s no realistic solution to either of those.

I don’t live in the area so I haven’t a notion, all I did was take the way of thinking from areas that seem similar.

tom1ie · 17-12-2018 9:55pm

Qrt wrote: »

Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

The area reminds me of areas like Kingswood, Kilnamanagh and Firhouse. All areas of semi-d homogeneity and large driveways. Kingswood has a bus every hour and ten, with Kilnamanagh having no bus and Firhouse set to be served my an orbital only route. I just based by judgement on that.

Where are you getting the density map? I’ve tried to find one for ages!

This!

Brian CivilEng · 18-12-2018 12:30am

Density map on this article is a good place to start.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

Very few places in Dublin City can be called low density.

MJohnston · 18-12-2018 12:38am

Population density map here (hasn't been updated with 2016 census data yet unfortunately):
https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8

Additionally, if you download Chapter 3 of the BusConnects original report, there's a 2018 density map based on projections from the 2011 census (it's on page 35). There are tonne of other great and useful maps in that chapter too.

Bray Head · 22-12-2018 4:22pm

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Density map on this article is a good place to start.

Very few places in Dublin City can be called low density.

A lot of European cities have more high rise than Dublin, but also have big urban parks - sometimes including a lot of woodland.

Save for the Phoenix Park, parks in inner Dublin are small and pretty poor as amenities.

This lack of open space does push up density.

tom1ie · 22-12-2018 7:33pm

Bray Head wrote: »

A lot of European cities have more high rise than Dublin, but also have big urban parks - sometimes including a lot of woodland.

Save for the Phoenix Park, parks in inner Dublin are small and pretty poor as amenities.

This lack of open space does push up density.

Tymon parks pretty huge. So is Marlay Park. Don’t know if you can class them as inner Dublin? They’re inside the m50, well half of tymon is anyway.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 7:52pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Tymon parks pretty huge. So is Marlay Park. Don’t know if you can class them as inner Dublin? They’re inside the m50, well half of tymon is anyway.

Certainly not inner Dublin Tom.
Marlay is practically up the mountains

thomasj · 23-12-2018 3:02pm

The places that come to mind at the top of the head would be Stephens green, merrion square, mountjoy screen and the park down near Christchurch

Dyr · 23-12-2018 4:43pm

From memory, Dublin is in the lower mid tier for green spaces in terms of European cities, I have a feeling if you excluded the Phoenix Park we'd be somewhere near the bottom

Bray Head · 23-12-2018 10:50pm

thomasj wrote: »

The places that come to mind at the top of the head would be Stephens green, merrion square, mountjoy screen and the park down near Christchurch

I would define inner Dublin as about 5km from the city centre.

A city like Munich has dense neighbourhoods but then very large parks very much in the city.

Dublin doesn't.

Brian CivilEng · 23-12-2018 11:54pm

Dont forget the northside. Botanic Gardens, Fairview Park, St. Anne's Park. Heck Bull island is only 7km from O'Connell Bridge. How many other capital cities can you go kite surfing in?

Funnily enough, I've always seen Clontarf and Raheny referred to as low density suburbs, precisely because of St. Anne's and Bull Island.

monument · 24-12-2018 12:40am

Bray Head wrote: »

I would define inner Dublin as about 5km from the city centre.

A city like Munich has dense neighbourhoods but then very large parks very much in the city.

Dublin doesn't.

It’s mostly 8-10km from O’Connell Bridge to the M50, so, 5km is half way or over.

Some of Dublin’s highest density areas are underserve by local green areas — ie the Liberties, around O’Connell Street, around Connelly Station, and Smithfield ...all areas with a density of ~10,000+ people per square km but much of it poorly served or poorly linked to green areas or those green areas are poorly managed or not for residents (ie private).

monument · 24-12-2018 12:53am

Qrt wrote: »

Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

The area reminds me of areas like Kingswood, Kilnamanagh and Firhouse. All areas of semi-d homogeneity and large driveways. Kingswood has a bus every hour and ten, with Kilnamanagh having no bus and Firhouse set to be served my an orbital only route. I just based by judgement on that.

Where are you getting the density map? I’ve tried to find one for ages!

The CSO / Maynooth maps are good for showing wider variances, but this map shows the average over square kms: https://dancooksonresearch.carto.com/u/dancookson/viz/49ca276c-adf9-454a-8f64-0ccf0e46eed0/embed_map

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Dont forget the northside. Botanic Gardens, Fairview Park, St. Anne's Park. Heck Bull island is only 7km from O'Connell Bridge. How many other capital cities can you go kite surfing in?

Funnily enough, I've always seen Clontarf and Raheny referred to as low density suburbs, precisely because of St. Anne's and Bull Island.

Thr northside has higher density by far than the south side and that includes areas close to St Anns and Bull Island — see the link above.

Brian CivilEng · 24-12-2018 1:02am

Wow, excellent map, thanks for that. Beats the usual density per council ward / CSO map that has Raheny as low density. 5709 people per square km where I live.

Dravokivich · 24-12-2018 7:41pm

monument wrote: »

It’s mostly 8-10km from O’Connell Bridge to the M50, so, 5km is half way or over.

Some of Dublin’s highest density areas are underserve by local green areas — ie the Liberties, around O’Connell Street, around Connelly Station, and Smithfield ...all areas with a density of ~10,000+ people per square km but much of it poorly served or poorly linked to green areas or those green areas are poorly managed or not for residents (ie private).

This the same O'Connell st and Smithfield that are within 10 to 20 minutes walk of the Phoenix park?

Carawaystick · 26-12-2018 10:09pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

This the same O'Connell st and Smithfield that are within 10 to 20 minutes walk of the Phoenix park?

Having missed the last bus getting from Smithfield to O Connell st, this ten minutes is pie in the sky timing

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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