Vegan AMA

Unearthly · 05-05-2019 12:20pm

khaldrogo wrote: »

I view it the same as religion and politics.......I don't need to hear about your beliefs/views on any of them.

Why is that? Does it make me uncomfortable? Not in the slightest. It makes me yawn tbh.

When the question is asked to the individual then they are perfectly entitled to explain the reason aren't they?

As much as you'd like it to be true that vegans bring it up in every conversation, it isn't, however eating food is a very social event so It's not something people can hide.

Funny how vegans get accused of this but then nearly every vegan topic on boards is full of 'hahaha just had some steak hahaha'

jh79 · 05-05-2019 12:28pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

Science based? They are doctors? No one is saying you can't live a long life with animal products. It's possible for sure. You could put any group of scientists in front of any study and tell them to debunk it. There will always be something to pick at

Yes, a group of doctors who debunk pseudoscience of all types. Generally fake cancer cures and anti-vax stuff. The likes of the HOPE, What the Health and Forks Over Knives movies have featured in the past due to thier promotion of pseudoscience.

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 12:37pm

jh79 wrote: »

Yes, a group of doctors who debunk pseudoscience of all types. Generally fake cancer cures and anti-vax stuff. The likes of the HOPE, What the Health and Forks Over Knives movies have featured in the past due to thier promotion of pseudoscience.

There's nothing pesudo about preventing heart disease. I'm saying a group of doctors can poke holes in any nutrition study as human bodies are so very individual. I have yet to see a study that said eat less plant based food and more animal products for good health because that is just not the case. And no one said vegans can't get cancer or have a heart attack. Veganism doesn't equal health. There's oil filled veggie burgers and brownies and ice cream and whatever else that are perfectly vegan. I specifically haven't recommended any of those Netflix docs as they obviously have an agenda. I agree with said agenda but that's not currently relevant.

You're asking for a perfect answer and it doesn't exist

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 12:57pm

Now might be a good time to remind that food is only one part of veganism

Mundo7976 · 05-05-2019 1:20pm

Why on earth are some vegan foods marketed as meat products, vegan chicken/burgers/sausages etc, seems to be contradictory especially when theyre made to look like said meats

Unearthly · 05-05-2019 1:27pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Why on earth are some vegan foods marketed as meat products, vegan chicken/burgers/sausages etc, seems to be contradictory especially when theyre made to look like said meats

Most vegans/vegetarians enjoyed the taste of meat but aren't comfortable that an animal lost its life for it therefore these alternatives attempt to mimic the texture and taste to help the transition

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 1:30pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Why on earth are some vegan foods marketed as meat products, vegan chicken/burgers/sausages etc, seems to be contradictory especially when theyre made to look like said meats

Hi! There is no word in the English language to describe a product that looks, feels and tastes similar to chicken. It makes for easier marketing id imagine. People are likely to have a good idea of what's in the box. Textured soy based disk doesn't quite have the same ring to it

Mundo7976 · 05-05-2019 1:38pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

Hi! There is no word in the English language to describe a product that looks, feels and tastes similar to chicken. It makes for easier marketing id imagine. People are likely to have a good idea of what's in the box. Textured soy based disk doesn't quite have the same ring to it

Im confused. Vegans dont want to eat meat but want something that feels and tastes similar? Kinda defeats the purpose of the decision.
Also official definitions of burger/sausage is ground meat made into the shapes they are not the animals they come from!

Unearthly · 05-05-2019 1:41pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Im confused. Vegans dont want to eat meat but want something that feels and tastes similar? Kinda defeats the purpose of the decision.
Also official definitions of burger/sausage is ground meat made into the shapes they are not the animals they come from!

They are against the death of the animal, not the taste. Most grew up eating meat. They didn't go vegetarian or vegan because it tasted crap, it was their ethical choice

cgcsb · 05-05-2019 1:45pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Just compare heart disease rates between meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans... Vegans are by far the lowest risk.

The amount of people born raised and died on a strict vegan diet is negligible. There are no such studies with any sort of decent sample sizes.

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 1:48pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Im confused. Vegans dont want to eat meat but want something that feels and tastes similar? Kinda defeats the purpose of the decision.
Also official definitions of burger/sausage is ground meat made into the shapes they are not the animals they come from!

I didn't given up meat because it tasted bad. If meat wasn't made of animal flesh and having negative environmental impacts I'd be all over it. I don't really think what we're calling it is important. The meme was meant as a joke. As I say, I think it's just easier for marketing

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 1:51pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Im confused. Vegans dont want to eat meat but want something that feels and tastes similar? Kinda defeats the purpose of the decision.
Also official definitions of burger/sausage is ground meat made into the shapes they are not the animals they come from!

Also worth mentioning, there are many vegans who don't use meat replacements for the reasons you mentioned. Too similar to meat and they have too many negative connotations with that. Others never liked the taste.

Aoife77 · 05-05-2019 1:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The amount of people born raised and died on a strict vegan diet is negligible. There are no such studies with any sort of decent sample sizes.

Absolutely true that there are few born and raised vegans. It has has been stated it is suitable for all stages of life though. And many studies to suggest health benefits and disease prevention which is always a plus

davidjtaylor · 05-05-2019 2:06pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

From county Limerick, live in Kerry for work

Great. If you want to join the Clare Vegan Meet-up Group (I'm admin), please do. We sometimes travel to Limerick if there's vegan food ahead!

https://www.meetup.com/Clare-Vegans/

davidjtaylor · 05-05-2019 2:17pm

Mundo7976 wrote: »

Why on earth are some vegan foods marketed as meat products, vegan chicken/burgers/sausages etc, seems to be contradictory especially when theyre made to look like said meats

Many vegans - myself included - don't agree with the notion of mimicking meat. Some people try to justify it of course but I'm just one of those that won't go for it.

I always said, if cheese didn't ever exist, vegans wouldn't have invented it.

I do however disagree with the current push to outlaw the use of the word 'sausage' and 'burger' in vegan products. There is no such cut of meat as a sausage or burger. The meat industry cannot hold a copyright on it or define it. They're just convenient shapes for delivering a food product.

nice_guy80 · 06-05-2019 9:52am

Most new vegans eateries in Dublin seem to be going d9wn the route of mimicking meat

And they are doing very well.

There are a lot of 'casual vegans' out there

davidjtaylor · 06-05-2019 10:45am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most new vegans eateries in Dublin seem to be going d9wn the route of mimicking meat

And they are doing very well.

There are a lot of 'casual vegans' out there

Sigh. You’re right. I suppose if it gets people thinking about their ethics…sadly a lot of vegan processed food could, in some circs., be as environmentally irresponsible as its meat ‘equivalent’.

kerplun k · 06-05-2019 11:39am

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Sigh. You’re right. I suppose if it gets people thinking about their ethics…sadly a lot of vegan processed food could, in some circs., be as environmentally irresponsible as its meat ‘equivalent’.

What’s your problem with mimicking meats? If I was to try go vegetarian again this would be the avenue I take.

davidjtaylor · 06-05-2019 3:06pm

kerplun k wrote: »

What’s your problem with mimicking meats? If I was to try go vegetarian again this would be the avenue I take.

I don’t have a problem with them because I don’t use them.

Their (usually) highly-processed form could cause problems in the environment or within bodies though, just as processed meat products do.

gozunda · 06-05-2019 4:07pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

There are some weird threads on Boards about veganism, mostly by non vegans. It seems people have genuine questions about being vegan and are getting answers from people who also know nothing about it. Vegan 3 years, ask away. And don't be mean

Hey aoife

Hope you can answer this. Agreed there's lots of threads on boards created by all sorts. But ...

Why do some vegans constantly harass and target others (often without contributing to the thread) on a wide range of these type of threads? I really don't understand this tbh.

For example atm - theres a thread in AH called "Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism" - this was created by someone who eats meat but who's wondering what all the hype is about. The thread incudes lots of stuff on food and agriculture.

I know there's asshats everywhere - but these are targeted and personal and not just random posts either.

Why are those who are non veg*n who have contributed genuinely to these threads being constantly attacked and harassed by a small number of self declared veg*ns?

Here's an example. There are others.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057978222/4

My own interests include food production, agriculture etc and yup a number of self declared vegans have tried to bitch slap me in that AH thread. And yeah I've called this ****e out. I also contribute to threads here about these topics. Generally there no problem.

But what's this attack ****e outside this forum about? Btw it's not just at me - other posters have been attacked as well.

I mean wtf?

Thanks

G

YFlyer · 06-05-2019 5:17pm

gozunda wrote: »

Hey aoife

Hope you can answer this. Agreed there's lots of threads on boards created by all sorts. But ...

Why do some vegans constantly harass and target others (often without contributing to the thread) on a wide range of these type of threads? I really don't understand this tbh.

For example atm - theres a thread in AH called "Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism" - this was created by someone who eats meat but who's wondering what all the hype is about. The thread incudes lots of stuff on food and agriculture.

I know there's asshats everywhere - but these are targeted and personal and not just random posts either.

Why are those who are non veg*n who have contributed genuinely to these threads being constantly attacked and harassed by a small number of self declared veg*ns?

Here's an example. There are others.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057978222/4/#post110111936

My own interests include food production, agriculture etc and yup a number of self declared vegans have tried to bitch slap me in that AH thread. And yeah I've called this ****e out. I also contribute to threads here about these topics. Generally there no problem.

But what's this attack ****e outside this forum about? Btw it's not just at me - other posters have been attacked as well.

I mean wtf?

Thanks

G

Lol

YFlyer · 06-05-2019 5:21pm

Hi Aoife since you are from Limerick. Would there be solely a Veggie or Vegan restaurant, other than the Groove, in Limerick, in the near future?

gozunda · 06-05-2019 5:25pm

YFlyer wrote: »

Lol

Does that hurt YFlyer?

It's funny because I dont care what anyone eats and yet we get contributions like that. Doesn't really make some vegans look good does it?

Anyway I posted for the OP - so maybe lets see if they have any answers as to why this type of behaviour goes on.

No worries

G

YFlyer · 06-05-2019 5:28pm

gozunda wrote: »

Does that hurt YFlyer?

It's funny because I dont care what anyone eats and yet we get contributions like that. Doesn't really make some vegans look good does it?

Anyway I posted for the OP - so maybe lets see if they have any answers as to why this type of behaviour goes on.

No worries

G

Doesn't bother me boss. Just find it funny.

gozunda · 06-05-2019 5:37pm

YFlyer wrote: »

Doesn't bother me boss. Just find it funny.

Yeah I agree it's quite hilarious that it really does highlight such stupid types of behaviour.

Funny though - the thread I linked to actually inspired my post here. Though tbh it seems to happen all over the place.

But there ye go *shrugs*

G

auspicious · 06-05-2019 5:37pm

gozunda wrote: »

Does that hurt YFlyer?

It's funny because I dont care what anyone eats and yet we get contributions like that. Doesn't really make some vegans look good does it?

Anyway I posted for the OP - so maybe lets see if they have any answers as to why this type of behaviour goes on.

No worries

G

I'm sorry to hear your feelings were hurt G man. I thought people who don't care about animals were tough.

gozunda · 06-05-2019 5:49pm

auspicious wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear your feelings were hurt G man. I thought people who don't care about animals were tough.

I think thats part of the problem - some don't think. At all.

Do you like it that type of behaviour makes other vegans look bad? Btw no skin of my nose its just interesting why some vegans need to do that type of rubbish all the time.

But hey dont worry about it. You wont.

G

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 6:40pm

gozunda wrote: »

Hey aoife

Hope you can answer this. Agreed there's lots of threads on boards created by all sorts. But ...

Why do some vegans constantly harass and target others (often without contributing to the thread) on a wide range of these type of threads? I really don't understand this tbh.

For example atm - theres a thread in AH called "Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism" - this was created by someone who eats meat but who's wondering what all the hype is about. The thread incudes lots of stuff on food and agriculture.

I know there's asshats everywhere - but these are targeted and personal and not just random posts either.

Why are those who are non veg*n who have contributed genuinely to these threads being constantly attacked and harassed by a small number of self declared veg*ns?

Here's an example. There are others.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057978222/4/#post110111936

My own interests include food production, agriculture etc and yup a number of self declared vegans have tried to bitch slap me in that AH thread. And yeah I've called this ****e out. I also contribute to threads here about these topics. Generally there no problem.

But what's this attack ****e outside this forum about? Btw it's not just at me - other posters have been attacked as well.

I mean wtf?

Thanks

G

Hey G! Wft indeed! That's a tough one to answer because I personally don't know any vegans that comment on posts like that. Not that i know a huge amount of vegans anyway! Myself, I might read the comments under a post and think they're honestly terrifying...people denying the correlation between animal agri and climate change or say things along the lines of they're only stupid animals, theyre pain is irrelevant etc. And the bacon jokes omg!! It honestly makes me sad and a bit afraid sometimes. I guess the people who make those attacking comments are acting out of a place fear and anger in a way. Granted the vast majority of meat eaters who comment in the first place are trolls looking for vegans to comment back. But i see genuine quwstions getting snarky responses from vegans. That's why I generally don't respond. I also see vegans who try to genuinely respond and their comments are lost among the bacon jokes and crappy attacking comments.

It can be draining reading 10 articles in a week criticising what you are doing especially when you are genuinely trying to do good. There's also a degree on anonymity for vegans and non vegans. Both sides would prob never be so harsh in person. I honestly don't know what they are trying to achieve. Are they internalizing all the **** they read and letting it go here because it's kind of anonymous? It's sh*tty behaviour by anyone on any thread to attack people personally. That's kinda why I started this thread. I don't like the crappy comment back and forth under articles etc. It puts people off educating themselves and tars all vegans with one brush.

Hard in the moment but try to remember they are almost always being critised for what they do when they are genuinely trying to cause less harm all around. Its not always easy to internalize all that. They are passionate about veganism. And there are animals being hurt and killed right this minute. And the climate is being fudged up right this minute. It's fairly urgent as we see it. Some people are wilfully ignorant of all this and that can make a vegan feel fairly fudging frustrated. Still, no one has the right to be an a**hat as you say.

Soz it's a bit rambley. You don't have to agree with it all but I think that may be part it. To be clear though, I am vegan af but definitely don't agree with personally attacking people under any circumstances. Cheers for contributing!

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 6:44pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Most new vegans eateries in Dublin seem to be going d9wn the route of mimicking meat

And they are doing very well.

There are a lot of 'casual vegans' out there[/quote

Yes! I think a restaurant should have a mix of both where possible. Love a bit of seitan myself at Vegfest or if in Dublin. Not much available to Limerick and Kerry!

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 6:49pm

YFlyer wrote: »

Hi Aoife since you are from Limerick. Would there be solely a Veggie or Vegan restaurant, other than the Groove, in Limerick, in the near future?

Limerick has had bad luck recently on that front. The Old Firestation was veggie but with plenty vegan dishes and it closes last month. Due to family reasons they said. And the underdog closed in Feb/March. Think footfall was the issue there. It never really took off I don't think. It could have been better for sure. It was just missing something. And don't say meat lol!! No idea if there is anything in the works but I sure hope so!!

Jellybaby1 · 06-05-2019 7:10pm

Well done on taking on this task OP. I am so pleased to see this thread as I was contemplating suggesting it. Hands up, I'm a life long meat-eater, and doubt I'll ever be a complete veggie. However, with all the documentaries on animal welfare recently I decided to eat less meat last year. Result was I never felt so well in years! I was so surprised that I wanted to continue but meat called me home! Now I try to eat at least one or two veggie meals a week but can't give up the meat. Now, my questions are:

1. If farmers stopped farming animals, what do vegans suggest should happen to the animals? Animal husbandry is a craft and animals need to be looked after, during illness, birth, etc. Can cows really live safely in the 'wild'?

2. If farmers only grew crops then I would expect the land might become drained and they would have to spread more fertilizers, and we are being told that a lot of farming practices are destroying natural habitats of wild animals, insects, bees and what have you. Would vegans promote these fertilizers?

I am a city girl, born and bred but my in-laws are farmers. Just something I was wondering about.

Tilikum17 · 06-05-2019 7:16pm

gozunda wrote: »

Hey aoife

Hope you can answer this. Agreed there's lots of threads on boards created by all sorts. But ...

Why do some vegans constantly harass and target others (often without contributing to the thread) on a wide range of these type of threads? I really don't understand this tbh.

For example atm - theres a thread in AH called "Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism" - this was created by someone who eats meat but who's wondering what all the hype is about. The thread incudes lots of stuff on food and agriculture.

I know there's asshats everywhere - but these are targeted and personal and not just random posts either.

Why are those who are non veg*n who have contributed genuinely to these threads being constantly attacked and harassed by a small number of self declared veg*ns?

Here's an example. There are others.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057978222/4

My own interests include food production, agriculture etc and yup a number of self declared vegans have tried to bitch slap me in that AH thread. And yeah I've called this ****e out. I also contribute to threads here about these topics. Generally there no problem.

But what's this attack ****e outside this forum about? Btw it's not just at me - other posters have been attacked as well.

I mean wtf?

Thanks

G

I haven’t even opened that thread but your post is absolute cringe. A grown man/woman that’s gets upset about people being mean on after hours.

Go & spend time with your kids & Stop going into after hours if you’re that much of a soft cock.

After hours is not to be taken seriously.

Also, you keep typing ‘I don’t care what anyone eats’ yet you’re on this forum posting more than any vegetarian/vegan. You post more on here than the farming forum. (And you’re supposed to be a farmer)

There’s more to life than boards.

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 8:59pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

I haven’t even opened that thread but your post is absolute cringe. A grown man/woman that’s gets upset about people being mean on after hours.

Go & spend time with your kids & Stop going into after hours if you’re that much of a soft cock.

After hours is not to be taken seriously.

Also, you keep typing ‘I don’t care what anyone eats’ yet you’re on this forum posting more than any vegetarian/vegan. You post more on here than the farming forum. (And you’re supposed to be a farmer)

There’s more to life than boards.

In fairness I did ask for questions. Aim is for a civil discussion

jh79 · 06-05-2019 9:49pm

What your opinion on animal testing for medicine? Necessary evil or should we go straight to human clinical trials?

06-05-2019 9:54pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Just compare heart disease rates between meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans... Vegans are by far the lowest risk.

Is it because something else got them first? Heart disease is not the only killer. Where do vegans get iron b12 etc?

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 10:26pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Well done on taking on this task OP. I am so pleased to see this thread as I was contemplating suggesting it. Hands up, I'm a life long meat-eater, and doubt I'll ever be a complete veggie. However, with all the documentaries on animal welfare recently I decided to eat less meat last year. Result was I never felt so well in years! I was so surprised that I wanted to continue but meat called me home! Now I try to eat at least one or two veggie meals a week but can't give up the meat. Now, my questions are:

1. If farmers stopped farming animals, what do vegans suggest should happen to the animals? Animal husbandry is a craft and animals need to be looked after, during illness, birth, etc. Can cows really live safely in the 'wild'?

2. If farmers only grew crops then I would expect the land might become drained and they would have to spread more fertilizers, and we are being told that a lot of farming practices are destroying natural habitats of wild animals, insects, bees and what have you. Would vegans promote these fertilizers?

I am a city girl, born and bred but my in-laws are farmers. Just something I was wondering about.

Hi! I'll have to put my hands up here and say I'm no expert on this area. Also your questions, while valid, are assuming the world goes vegan all at once which is highly unlikely to be the case!

interesting though...

Question 1...Practices would dwindle away rather have thousands of cows wondering around our roads and lawns. It's a case of supply and demand I guess. If tomorrow we stopped breeding animals into existence in a few years the numbers would drop significantly naturally. As regards wild animals...I totally get what you mean but foxes/hedgehogs/deer/antelope and so many other animals in the world get by without us interfering. I suppose many buffalo or bison or whatever animal die as a result of injuries or illness in the wild each year but as they are 'wild' we know nothing about it. Absolutely regrettable but it wouldn't be one bit feasible to help each and every one. No one wants animals in pain. We're only concerned about cows and sheep etc as we have domesticated them and they are profitable in western societies. All hypothetical still...but if wild animals can't live in the wild it is because of humans taking over and ruining habitats. I'd actually be interested if any other vegans on this has anything to contribute!

Question 2...assuming again we all went plant based overnight, animal agriculture and feeding those animals uses a huge amount of land that could otherwise be used for crops. I don't have figures in front of me but a plant based diet uses a lot less land than meat eating one as I understand it. In the olden days (lol) I know they used to leave a field fallow or unplanted every few years to avoid soil being leached of nutrients. Possibly an option if a great deal of land is freed up. Fertilizers might well be required too but what better fertilizer is there than good old fashioned compost! The ultimate repurposing of waste vegetable etc! I'm sure fertilizers are already being used on crops eaten by vegans today, we might need to be more selective about what is used on crops. The least damaging the better. As I say, no expert on this. Also true that some small animals and insects etc are hurt or killed during harvest. The sooner we can improve on that the better. It's entirely unintentional in comparison to taking a pig to a slaughterhouse. Veganism is all about intent and there is such thing as a perfect vegan. I mean have you ever looked at a car after driving on a motorway? Insect cemetery unfortunately. Could argue that the huge amount of crops grown to feed animals in agriculture kills all these thousands of insects etc too so if we don't have to feed them, fewer insects etc would be killed too. All hypothetical but interesting to think it out!

I highly recommend Ed Winters Ted talk. He would explain this much more eloquently than I ever could. Anyone else have a contribution??

bilbot79 · 06-05-2019 10:30pm

Do you feel compelled to force everybody in the whole world to be vegan because you think it's the way people should be?

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 10:34pm

jh79 wrote: »

What your opinion on animal testing for medicine? Necessary evil or should we go straight to human clinical trials?

As far as I'm aware it's still a legal requirement. In an ideal world the answer will always be no to animal testing, I think we can all agree on that. I'm not sure what the alternatives are though. I suppose an obvious one would be to use ingredients that have been ready been tested so the data already exists. Many tests could also be done lab grown tissue. I don't actually think animal testing is effective anyway. Animals don't get all the same diseases as us and don't react to things the way we do do not can be pretty redundant. Human trials make more sense for somethings. What do you think?

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 10:40pm

bilbot79 wrote: »

Do you feel compelled to force everybody in the whole world to be vegan because you think it's the way people should be?

Well I have compelled no one so far so if that's the case I'm failing dramatically. No one can be literally forced. But if someone reads this thread and decides ya I'll defo cut my intake in half, that's a positive. Not perfect but id say the chicken that's not in their roll at lunch time would be fairly pleased. Do I think animals should be used, abused and eaten? My head says no. Do I think it's damaging the environment? Data suggests yes. So do I think that means veganism is the way to go? Yes I do. Otherwise why would I bother?

bilbot79 · 06-05-2019 10:45pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

Well I have compelled no one so far so if that's the case I'm failing dramatically. No one can be literally forced. But if someone reads this thread and decides ya I'll defo cut my intake in half, that's a positive. Not perfect but id say the chicken that's not in their roll at lunch time would be fairly pleased. Do I think animals should be used, abused and eaten? My head says no. Do I think it's damaging the environment? Data suggests yes. So do I think that means veganism is the way to go? Yes I do. Otherwise why would I bother?

I understand where youre coming and I often harbour concerns about animal welfare but I just don't think it's realistic to think we can be vegan as a society. Less meat yes, vegan no. I think meat should be very expensive and vegetables very cheap

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 10:57pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it because something else got them first? Heart disease is not the only killer. Where do vegans get iron b12 etc?

Iron can be found in lentils, chickpeas, beans, tofu, cashews, chia seeds, linseed, hemp seeds, pumpkin seeds, green leafy veg, quinoa and fortified plant milks. That ones not so hard. Modern hygiene practices make b12 difficult for us all to consume these days. Its present in animal products as the animal would be exposed to the bacteria during it's lifetime. This isn't always the case though because of said hygiene practices and animals need to be supplemented with b12. As i understamd it b12 used be more available in plant foods too but we're so damn clean now. Pesticides also don't help with this. Fun fact, I know one person with a b12 deficiency and she has eaten animal products all of 50+ years. Better safe than sorry with a supplement

jh79 · 06-05-2019 10:59pm

Aoife77 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware it's still a legal requirement. In an ideal world the answer will always be no to animal testing, I think we can all agree on that. I'm not sure what the alternatives are though. I suppose an obvious one would be to use ingredients that have been ready been tested so the data already exists. Many tests could also be done lab grown tissue. I don't actually think animal testing is effective anyway. Animals don't get all the same diseases as us and don't react to things the way we do do not can be pretty redundant. Human trials make more sense for somethings. What do you think?

As far as i know there are no alternatives. Certain animals have been shown to be good models for human illnesses. We are talking about novel drugs so there is no previous to draw on. Big difference between a cell line in a petri dish and a fully functioning animal.

You give a rat/ dog / rabbit or horse a drug and then look at the various organs for abnormalities etc. Can't do that with a petri dish.

Suppose if you value animals as equals to humans them skip them otherwise a necessary evil. Can't recreate an entire vascular system in the lab.

If its any consolation, ethics commitees don't make it easy in Irish universities. A poorly designed study wouldn't get the go ahead.

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 11:06pm

bilbot79 wrote: »

I understand where youre coming and I often harbour concerns about animal welfare but I just don't think it's realistic to think we can be vegan as a society. Less meat yes, vegan no. I think meat should be very expensive and vegetables very cheap

I don't think we'll ever have a vegan society. Not in my lifetime anyway. There will always be someone hunting or keeping chickens or whatever. The mass production has to stop though. I think it could well be already too late but I don't think that gives us a free pass not to try. I do think the consequences will catch up with us and when the government finally decides to act it will have to be very dramatically and people will be pissd. Better to improve drastically now? As regards animal welfare, I don't think there is an ethical way to kill an animal. Their only instinct is to live and look after their babies and we take that away from them. So I agree and disagree with you

gozunda · 06-05-2019 11:07pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

I haven’t even opened that thread but your post is absolute cringe. A grown man/woman that’s gets upset about people being mean on after hours.
Go & spend time with your kids & Stop going into after hours if you’re that much of a soft cock.After hours is not to be taken seriously.
Also, you keep typing ‘I don’t care what anyone eats’ yet you’re on this forum posting more than any vegetarian/vegan. You post more on here than the farming forum. (And you’re supposed to be a farmer) There’s more to life than boards.

Tilikum to be fair - your record on this is very poor imo. Perhaps you should be a bit more reflective about what you are trying to do and how that is reactive rather that thought out or logical.

And to clarify - not that it is any of your business - I have way more posts in the farming forum. I post here mostly on farming, food and agriculture and a small number of other topics. Do you understand that? Or do you chose to be deliberately bitter and twisted?

The issue is not on this forum btw - it is the multitude of other threads where a small number of veg*n posters seem to believe they can **** all over other posters. Tbh I think it's good that this behaviour has bubbled to the surface. The more this type of thing is ignored - the more some believe they have a god given right to be a dick - so your reference above although crude and gratuitous is somehow apt. But there you go - there's more to life than(bill)boards....

Anyway I'll say no more other than to suggest you actually take a good long read of the OPs reply. You may learn something.

G

Aoife77 · 06-05-2019 11:13pm

jh79 wrote: »

As far as i know there are no alternatives. Certain animals have been shown to be good models for human illnesses. We are talking about novel drugs so there is no previous to draw on. Big difference between a cell line in a petri dish and a fully functioning animal.

You give a rat/ dog / rabbit or horse a drug and then look at the various organs for abnormalities etc. Can't do that with a petri dish.

Suppose if you value animals as equals to humans them skip them otherwise a necessary evil. Can't recreate an entire vascular system in the lab.

If its any consolation, ethics commitees don't make it easy in Irish universities. A poorly designed study wouldn't get the go ahead.

Ya I get you. Humans are the fudging worst though. Get them to sign a waiver to go straight to humans trials and they'll sue anyway if they have a negative side effect. Doesn't inspire confidence in the eyes of the scientist. The process could definitely be improved drastically but as you say ethics committee are stringent. Lawful practices don't guarantee ethical actions

davidjtaylor · 07-05-2019 9:03am

Most animal testing is for unnecessary stuff like food additives and cosmetics. The proportion of animal testing for new, untried medicines is tiny.

A bigger question is why people need all these drugs anyway (not to mention food additives and cosmetics) and that money should really go towards prevention. But hey, no corporation rakes in billions from brocolli.

davidjtaylor · 07-05-2019 9:08am

BTW, I can’t help but roll my eyes when people routinely portray other species as lesser beings, not comparable to us in so many ways, expendable, merely worthy of torturing in testing facilities - yet say they’re sufficiently like us to make the results meaningful. I mean, irony how are you?

jh79 · 07-05-2019 9:19am

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Most animal testing is for unnecessary stuff like food additives and cosmetics. The proportion of animal testing for new, untried medicines is tiny.

A bigger question is why people need all these drugs anyway (not to mention food additives and cosmetics) and that money should really go towards prevention. But hey, no corporation rakes in billions from brocolli.

Flawed argument, diseases such as cancer / heart disease would exist anyways just at lower levels. The treatments would still need to be tested on animals.

jh79 · 07-05-2019 9:23am

davidjtaylor wrote: »

BTW, I can’t help but roll my eyes when people routinely portray other species as lesser beings, not comparable to us in so many ways, expendable, merely worthy of torturing in testing facilities - yet say they’re sufficiently like us to make the results meaningful. I mean, irony how are you?

Would you volunteer for a clinical trial knowing the drug had not been tested in an animal model first?

loveisdivine · 08-05-2019 1:21pm

This article details some of the current options for alternative to animal testing. Whilst not wiping it out completely they can drastically reduce the number of animals used.

https://www.livescience.com/65401-animal-testing-alternatives.html

Vegan AMA

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