S2S Cycleway - northside

Ferris · 22-05-2019 4:25pm

Attached is DCC's idea of a 'solution' to the right of way issue at the Baths in Clontarf. This makes me so angry, making bikes on a continuously used cycleway give way to fat b*****ds on their way for a posh lunch. This was the easy option, and the one that most easily removes the responsibility for cyclist safety from DCC. So now we will have to look over our shoulder while approaching those poles and walls to look for cars which will have right of way.

I may be overreacting but I think that this is a preposterous solution.

Leroy42 · 22-05-2019 4:28pm

What is the other solution? Having a segregated cycle lane means it is almost impossible that cars will be aware of cyclists if turning into or out of those junctions.

Of course the correct answer is to not allow parking at all in that spot but that ship appears to have sailed and if they want people to make use of the baths then there needs to be some parking.

mr spuckler · 22-05-2019 4:45pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is the other solution?

A raised table crossing which gives priority to cyclists.

Cionn · 22-05-2019 5:00pm

I was going to send a complaint last week when I saw 2 cars almost take out 3 cyclists in a 30 second period. Neither of the 2 cars looked for cyclists and both accelerated across the bike lane without any care. This is dangerous already and will be worse now that the cars believe they have the right of way. I wonder if the risk assessment documentation for that can be requested.

Leroy42 · 22-05-2019 9:34pm

mr spuckler wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is the other solution?

A raised table crossing which gives priority to cyclists.

How will that help? The issue isn't speed, its sight lines and expectations.

If a car is turning right from town across the traffic they are looking for traffic not cyclists coming from either direction.

It is safer for all concerned to take note of the dangers and be cautious. It's a yield, not a stop, so cyclists need to take care.

Leroy42 · 22-05-2019 9:35pm

Cionn wrote: »

I was going to send a complaint last week when I saw 2 cars almost take out 3 cyclists in a 30 second period. Neither of the 2 cars looked for cyclists and both accelerated across the bike lane without any care. This is dangerous already and will be worse now that the cars believe they have the right of way. I wonder if the risk assessment documentation for that can be requested.

Believe? Under those signs they do have the right of way.

mrcheez · 23-05-2019 9:59am

mr spuckler wrote: »

A raised table crossing which gives priority to cyclists.

is this the kind of idea?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3668637,-6.3409885,3a,75y,223.71h,78.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D173.93826%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

(in Phoenix Park)

buffalo · 23-05-2019 10:02am

mrcheez wrote: »

is this the kind of idea?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3668637,-6.3409885,3a,75y,223.71h,78.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D173.93826%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

(in Phoenix Park)

That, except the stop signs and yield marks should be on the road.

loyatemu · 23-05-2019 10:41am

Leroy42 wrote: »

How will that help? The issue isn't speed, its sight lines and expectations.

If a car is turning right from town across the traffic they are looking for traffic not cyclists coming from either direction.

It is safer for all concerned to take note of the dangers and be cautious. It's a yield, not a stop, so cyclists need to take care.

this is Dublin's flagship cycle route, it shouldn't have to yield for access to a private carpark. Cars turning in should yield, this is a pathetic solution. It's also a bad precedent, if there's one "cyclists yield" soon there will be more and it will end up like something in Galway.

mr spuckler · 23-05-2019 11:03am

mrcheez wrote: »

is this the kind of idea?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3668637,-6.3409885,3a,75y,223.71h,78.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuntKW9yogZXCUZX0GqmrMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D173.93826%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

(in Phoenix Park)

The same general idea yes, though with clear signage to indicate priority for cyclists.
Another example below if it comes through, showing a distinct change in colour for the track. You keep the cyclists at the same level and force a change in level for the motorists to cross.

mr spuckler · 23-05-2019 11:05am

Leroy42 wrote: »

How will that help? The issue isn't speed, its sight lines and expectations.

If a car is turning right from town across the traffic they are looking for traffic not cyclists coming from either direction.

It is safer for all concerned to take note of the dangers and be cautious. It's a yield, not a stop, so cyclists need to take care.

It would help in the same way it helps and works in other jurisdictions. There's little issue with sight lines here if people are looking, my only conflicts with motorists here have been when they simply didn't look for me. Creating clearly visible distinction between the cycle track and roadway, including signage, also addresses the expectation issue for motorists.

Ferris · 23-05-2019 11:21am

With the current crap layout there was no alternative but those damn yield signs.

But the whole solution is sub optimal. Also, clearly there was a process gone through as it doesn't take even DCC 18 months to paint some yield signs on the road. Clearly they couldn't come to a solution so took this half arsed approach instead.

Note that in the planning drawings for the baths there is a fully designed carpark included - even so the entrance/exit was still poorly designed. However this has clearly fallen by the wayside - probably due to cost. DCC has clearly dropped the ball here. By failing to require that the developer adequately maintain a state asset, the public are left with a reduced quality cycleway.

Ferris · 23-05-2019 11:35am

Original site plan

http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00597182.pdf

mr spuckler · 23-05-2019 11:47am

Ferris wrote: »

With the current crap layout there was no alternative but those damn yield signs.

there's also the option of actual enforcement, even to sort out the parking layout. Donna Cooney has been chasing on this and says there's an open enforcement file at the council but nothing has happened so far. it seems the council previously tried to push back on a structure that was built outside of planning permission on this site but then gave up and granted retention. when that's what we're dealing with we can expect little change...

Ferris · 23-05-2019 11:55am

mr spuckler wrote: »

there's also the option of actual enforcement, even to sort out the parking layout. Donna Cooney has been chasing on this and says there's an open enforcement file at the council but nothing has happened so far. it seems the council previously tried to push back on a structure that was built outside of planning permission on this site but then gave up and granted retention. when that's what we're dealing with we can expect little change...

I've replied to Ciaran Cuffe and copied Donna Cooney, they've been responsive before. I share your frustration, seems that councils are still backing developers over the public interest, its a poor show.

cdaly_ · 23-05-2019 11:55am

If people started to use it as a park-and-pedal facility, 7-days it would end up filled by cyclist-aware drivers who would take proper care crossing the cycle track. That might help make things safer...

Cionn · 23-05-2019 12:19pm

I still would love to see the safety /risk assessment documentation. It's basically safer for the driver at the expense of the cyclists

mr spuckler · 23-05-2019 12:19pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

If people started to use it as a park-and-pedal facility, 7-days it would end up filled by cyclist-aware drivers who would take proper care crossing the cycle track. That might help make things safer...

Some do - I often see bike racks on the back of cars parked there. Only free parking in the area!

brocbrocach · 23-05-2019 12:29pm

They have redrawn lines all around the area though. It could just be a part of that rather than a conscious redrawing of the junction.

mr spuckler · 23-05-2019 12:36pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

They have redrawn lines all around the area though. It could just be a part of that rather than a conscious redrawing of the junction.

those yield markers weren't there before so these aren't redrawn. some of the other markings have been refreshed which is welcome.

Duckjob · 23-05-2019 1:27pm

mr spuckler wrote: »

The same general idea yes, though with clear signage to indicate priority for cyclists.
Another example below if it comes through, showing a distinct change in colour for the track. You keep the cyclists at the same level and force a change in level for the motorists to cross.

As per the normal situation in Ireland, it's not really a technical/design problem that needs to be solved because the proven designs are there in other countries for all to see. It's a cultural and a political problem.

Cultural because our planners, like everyone else,have been in immersed in decades of the car culture Matrix.

Political because, even if they manage to unplug from the Matrix to realise the above, the idea of doing anything that disturbs the status quo, and especially something that disturbs the status quo in favour of cyclists, is a politically terrifying prospect for them.

I've said many times before that its only as long as we continue to pander to the most bulky, most inefficient, most noisy, most pollution form of personal transport, that other most sustainable forms of transport need to compete with each other for the scraps of space left over.

The Dutch grasped this nettle decades ago, when they started actively taking space from cars, and giving it to other more sustainable forms.

How long I wonder before our elected representatives actually grow the balls to grasp that nettle here.

mrcheez · 23-05-2019 1:59pm

Duckjob wrote: »

How long I wonder before our elected representatives actually grow the balls to grasp that nettle here.

I think they'd prefer to grasp the former over the latter

Pigeon Reaper · 23-05-2019 3:26pm

It's a really half arsed way of doing things. When PP was sought this was pointed out as an issue and the council insisted that it wouldn't cause problems.

Raam · 23-05-2019 7:30pm

I've no problem with the yield signs. From both directions you are entering a pedestrian area briefly. There is a footpath at both sides.

Fighting Tao · 23-05-2019 8:11pm

Doesn’t there have to be a yield sign to make it official?

Ferris · 24-05-2019 8:50am

No problem yielding to Pedestrians, they're slow and don't weigh 2 tons and to be fair the practice of yielding to them is consistent along the Cycleway. Apart from the traffic lights at the wooden bridge this is the only junction on the cycleway where bikes yield to cars now. Cars yield to bikes at the car parks at the Bus garage.

Its the principle I'm afraid.

magicbastarder · 24-05-2019 8:55am

Raam wrote: »

I've no problem with the yield signs. From both directions you are entering a pedestrian area briefly. There is a footpath at both sides.

yeah, it's not a hill for cyclists to die on.

i see there's a cycle lane protection on today prompted by the spice girls concert resulting in the stretch on alfie byrne road being used for coach parking. it's not an issue i'm particularly fussed about. partly because i never use the cycle lane myself on that stretch.

ChrisJ84 · 24-05-2019 9:29am

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, it's not a hill for cyclists to die on.

This is my take on it as well. From a purely pragmatic perspective, that stretch by the baths is somewhere I always slow down and am extra vigilant. Regardless of the road set up, there is still a fair chance of a car swinging in without looking / seeing cyclists.

Not saying we should excuse poor infrastructure, I just think that is always going to be a potentially dodgy spot.

Fighting Tao · 24-05-2019 9:48am

The IBike action to protect the cycle track from bus parking has changed start time. It’s now 4pm today.

I’m not affiliated to them but agree with this action.

Effects · 24-05-2019 9:52am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i see there's a cycle lane protection on today prompted by the spice girls concert resulting in the stretch on alfie byrne road being used for coach parking.

As far as I know, there's other designated coach parking but they just prefer to park up on this cycle path.

Effects · 24-05-2019 9:55am

Probably be a more regular occurrence from now on with the better weather.

Fighting Tao · 24-05-2019 9:57am

Effects wrote: »

As far as I know, there's other designated coach parking but they just prefer to park up on this cycle path.

The Gardaí have it on their website that the cycle lane is closed to allow for bus parking. There is a large and under-used NTA bus park at Spencer Dock. Not that far away.

There doesn’t appear to have been a proper traffic management plan published in advance providing notice of the cycle track closure. I believe there is a legal requirement for notice in the papers. I am open to correction though.

Effects · 24-05-2019 10:58am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

There is a large and under-used NTA bus park at Spencer Dock. Not that far away.

Yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of.

I'm heading along to the protest this evening as it's near where I live.

Gardai don't seem to care that much for bad parking in the general area.
People routinely park on the footpath along Fairview, leaving just the cycle path for both bikes and pedestrians. Gardai do nothing about it.

Raam · 24-05-2019 12:43pm

Work happening now at the baths. At least one post was removed, to be replaced with....? Kissing gates

Seriously though, I didn't hang around to find out. Probably the smaller ones likes at the bus depot.

railer201 · 25-05-2019 9:40pm

More concrete bollards have been removed at the entrance to Clontarf Baths, so cars can sweep into the carpark at speed if they wish. Prior to this the bollards did restrict the width of the entrance and vehicles had to slow right down.

As of this morning, there are no poles and no signs at all, save the white triangles on the cycle track surface marking the end of the cycle lanes.

In comparison to the entrances at the Yacht Club/Bus Garage where STOP signs are in place for vehicles entering/exiting the carparks, the situation at the Baths carpark is currently potentially dangerous for cyclists.

Beware

BrianHenryIE · 26-05-2019 5:00pm

From Facebook S2S page: https://www.facebook.com/120315358050159/posts/2201264499955224

S2S should be on the Seafront- Not the Merrion Rd. Make your views known to the NTA before the May 31st deadline.
The preliminary plans for the Bus Connects puts part of the S2S on the Merrion Road instead of on the seafront where it can be constructed with the Coastal Protection of the Railway which is also being planned. For more information check the S2S website here: http://s2s.ie/support-needed-now-may-2019/

Raam · 27-05-2019 12:43pm

More works happening at the baths this morning.

magicbastarder · 27-05-2019 1:25pm

https://twitter.com/alan_downtown/status/1132952227704954880

Raam · 27-05-2019 2:22pm

Well then.

mr spuckler · 27-05-2019 2:31pm

There was a lady on the town side of the wooden bridge this morning doing a behaviours & attitudes survey regarding the cycle track. Am pretty sure she said it was on behalf of the NTA.

She was asking questions regarding satisfaction with the width, junctions, speed, segregation, safety etc of the track, both at that point (which is wide and well surfaced) as well as along the entire length. Coincidentally I highlighted the baths and junction design in general as discussed here recently as my primary concerns.

Will be interesting to see what if anything comes out of it.

Oh and she gave me 2 emergency backup lights...

site_owner · 27-05-2019 5:27pm

please tell me you gave feedback about eye level posters too

mr spuckler · 27-05-2019 5:29pm

site_owner wrote: »

please tell me you gave feedback about eye level posters too

Damn, completely forgot about them!

mrcheez · 27-05-2019 6:59pm

Weren't there a few mins ago ...guess they took them down

magicbastarder · 27-05-2019 7:04pm

mr spuckler wrote: »

There was a lady on the town side of the wooden bridge this morning doing a behaviours & attitudes survey regarding the cycle track. Am pretty sure she said it was on behalf of the NTA.

i'm curious as to the purpose of the questions - are the responses going to be used to decide on improvements to the track, or inform decisions about other potential cycle tracks?

Mercian Pro · 27-05-2019 8:18pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Weren't there a few mins ago ...guess they took them down

The signs or the poles? There's a post (sorry) on the Dublin Cycling Campaign FB page that says "Finally, after years of hazard, especially at night, the poles on the middle of the cycle track outside Clontarf baths have been removed. Who do we thank?"

mrcheez · 27-05-2019 8:34pm

Sorry yeah completely forgot they took down the poles

Thought those eye level signs were on temporary poles or something

mr spuckler · 28-05-2019 10:26am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm curious as to the purpose of the questions - are the responses going to be used to decide on improvements to the track, or inform decisions about other potential cycle tracks?

As am I and I regret not pushing her more on that. She did take my contact details though and said that her boss may be in touch regarding validation etc so if that happens I'll ask for more detail.

She was only asking questions specifically about that track rather than more generally about cycling infrastructure & conditions. But again, whether they want to make improvements there or baseline for future developments I don't know.

mrcheez · 17-06-2019 8:58pm

They seem to have removed the ridiculous boulder that was blocking the pathway between pedestrian and bike lane at the causeway junction.

work · 17-06-2019 11:44pm

I live in South Dublin and was so enthusiastic about S2S. I know there have been issues on the North Side but something has been achieved and I get the impression it's been helped by local lobbying.
Nothing on the southern section. Now I really hope our minister for cycle frugality Ross is not going to do a big photo shoot for Vilo City. He has been the worst modern minister for transport regarding cycling. I would love him to take the other Vilo politicians on a spin beyond the merrion gates in Booterstown. They might not all survive but I suppose that's the point.

work · 17-06-2019 11:44pm

I live in South Dublin and was so enthusiastic about S2S. I know there have been issues on the North Side but something has been achieved and I get the impression it's been helped by local lobbying.
Nothing on the southern section. Now I really hope our minister for cycle frugality Ross is not going to do a big photo shoot for Vilo City. He has been the worst modern minister for transport regarding cycling. I would love him to take the other Vilo politicians on a spin beyond the merrion gates in Booterstown. They might not all survive but I suppose that's the point.

S2S Cycleway - northside

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