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Anti-vaxxers

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    #1562
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,366 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Are you talking about the very same leading Doctors who have a direct financial relationship with the company who make the Vaccine ?


    I'm sorry but anyone who is getting money from the manufacturer of Vaccine is not very credible.


    Profit making companies are not paying Doctors out of charity.

    You've just gone and moved the goalposts.

    What about Doctors like Wakefield who make a fortune peddling nonsense to anti-vaxxers? Or is that just fine because it suits your confirmation bias?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1563
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You've just gone and moved the goalposts.


    How for pointing out a conflict of interest.



    What about Doctors like Wakefield who make a fortune peddling nonsense to anti-vaxxers? Or is that just fine because it suits your confirmation bias?



    How did Wakefield make a fortune ? He lost is career because he refused to back down.


    He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.


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    #1564
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,366 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Unless you can prove that everyone who's performed research on vaccines has taken kickbacks from Big Pharma then you have no point?

    Wakefield is a multi-millionaire and doesn't have to work for a living. I think it's worked out ok for him though thankfully he was struck off preventing him from abusing more children save for spreading an ideology that results in a few dying here and there.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1565
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    batgoat wrote: »
    You really claiming that the majority of general practitioners(plus all the other medical experts that back it) in the country are being paid off by big pharma? One of the exceptions to this is a man heavily involved with Regret who label him as 'leading', the same group that that use Gary Null, a conspiracy radio hosts with outlandish views as a citation....

    I'm sure you can link the vaccine stuff to your other pretty dodgy views too.. :rolleyes:


    Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


    You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.


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    #1566
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


    You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.

    How much is each doctor in Ireland getting from Pharma???


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    #1567
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


    You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.

    So you have nothing but evil conspiracies, do you also subscribe to vaccines causing autism? Sounds like you do.. At least you don't seem to be trying to pretend your gp is a "leading gp" any more...


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    #1568
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,503 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    dexter_morgan wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something but I was reading that hpsc report and noticed that the incidence among non vaccinated was 0.5 per 100,000. At 5.8 per 100,000 that would be a huge increase and certainly point to a problem.

    Beginning of page 5 of the report.....
    "Based on the first contact with health care because of narcolepsy symptoms, the
    incidence of narcolepsy during the primary follow‐up time (01/04/2009 to 31/12/2010) was
    5.8 [95% CI: 3.5‐9.0] per 100,000 person years in the vaccinated and 0.5 [95% CI: 0.2‐1.0] per
    100,000 person years in the unvaccinated individuals. There was a significant 13‐fold higher risk of narcolepsy in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals and the absolute increased risk associated with the vaccine was five narcolepsy cases per 100,000 vaccinated children and adolescents. These results are similar to those found in Finland and other Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Norway."

    Will get back to you on this later as I'm on mobile at the mo.

    The incidence in vaccinated versus unvaccinated for Pandremix is correct.
    If memory serves, at the time I posted the original it was as a Pandremix versus A.N other vaccine and I need to dig out where I got the 5 per 100k rate as I don't recall immediately.

    That said, there is no doubting that Pandremix is associated with a higher incidence of Narcolepsy versus unvaccinated population.

    It is raising the incidence from 0.000005% in unvaccinated to 0.000058% which is significant in the Pandremix/Narcolepsy link.
    But from the viewpoint of population health is quite small


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    #1569
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Unless you can prove that everyone who's performed research on vaccines has taken kickbacks from Big Pharma then you have no point?

    Wakefield is a multi-millionaire and doesn't have to work for a living. I think it's worked out ok for him though thankfully he was struck off preventing him from abusing more children save for spreading an ideology that results in a few dying here and there.




    If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


    Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


    You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html


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    #1570
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    How much is each doctor in Ireland getting from Pharma???




    You can check that here.


    https://www.transferofvalue.ie/


    It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.


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    #1571
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


    Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


    You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

    So far your ability to find credible sources is severely lacking... You also seem to subscribe to vaccines causing autism. That is long debunked nonsense and the fact that some people seem to treat autism as some sort of illness is rather reprehensible.

    If you're more concerned about developingt autism than your child dying from readily preventable illnesses, that's pretty disgraceful. In the case of Andrew Wakefield, he falsified data to create a link between autism and the mmr vaccine. In addition to this he had plans to profit on the back of his study. So yep he endangered lives and continues to.


    http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/11/autism.vaccines/?hpt=Sbin


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    #1572
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,366 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


    Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


    You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

    Performing superfluous lumbar punctures on children to undermine a competing patent constitutes child abuse IMO.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1573
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    You can check that here.


    https://www.transferofvalue.ie/


    It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.

    My GP is not on there!! Nor are any of his colleagues. Have you actually looked at the values on there? They are tiny! Do you have any idea how much doctors in Ireland earn? GSK paying a hospital a few thousand is not going to buy the silence of many consultants! You really are away with the fairies, aren't you?


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    #1574
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Performing superfluous lumbar punctures on children to undermine a competing patent constitutes child abuse IMO.

    This is the thing that gets me. The likes of Regret cite some real doctors but many aren't, Eg Null is a Naturopath. Outside of majority of citations not being peer reviewed, a large number of them have engaged in pretty unethical behaviour. Eg the Null guy ended up hospitalising people because of his dodgy supplements. These are the dangerous morons that they're picking as credible.


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    #1575
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,366 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    batgoat wrote: »
    This is the thing that gets me. The likes of Regret cite some real doctors but many aren't, Eg Null is a Naturopath. Outside of majority of citations not being peer reviewed, a large number of them have engaged in pretty unethical behaviour. Eg the Null guy ended up hospitalising people because of his dodgy supplements. These are the dangerous morons that they're picking as credible.

    I wonder how they would feel about Wakefield's competitor to the MMR vaccine which is what drove him to discredit himself in the first place.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1576
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I wonder how they would feel about Wakefield's competitor to the MMR vaccine which is what drove him to discredit himself in the first place.

    He's going to gloss over it all. Sure, he's got the nation's leading gp that nobody has heard of.


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    #1577
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,237 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    rawn wrote: »
    Source?

    One of her cats told her. On the island.


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    #1578
    Walter Bishop
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Walter Bishop


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.


    Source?


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    #1579
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    banie01 wrote: »
    Will get back to you on this later as I'm on mobile at the mo.

    The incidence in vaccinated versus unvaccinated for Pandremix is correct.
    If memory serves, at the time I posted the original it was as a Pandremix versus A.N other vaccine and I need to dig out where I got the 5 per 100k rate as I don't recall immediately.

    That said, there is no doubting that Pandremix is associated with a higher incidence of Narcolepsy versus unvaccinated population.

    It is raising the incidence from 0.000005% in unvaccinated to 0.000058% which is significant in the Pandremix/Narcolepsy link.
    But from the viewpoint of population health is quite small


    It is a bit like concluding that the risk from getting killed by debris falling from space is greater for swimmers than for non-swimmers. Statistically significantly different at a micro unsignificant level.


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    #1580
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is a bit like concluding that the risk from getting killed by debris falling from space is greater for swimmers than for non-swimmers. Statistically significantly different at a micro unsignificant level.

    Yes, either way, the risk is tiny but that is not the point. The difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups does suggest a link however. The injuries that may have been caused by the vaccine make no difference in the overall scheme but that small statistical difference plays a huge part when it comes to receiving supports for those affected.


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    #1581
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,020 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Dr Brown wrote: »

    How did Wakefield make a fortune ? He lost is career because he refused to back down.


    He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.

    Wakefield's moved to the US and makes a fortune peddling his garbage to the gullible there. He lost his UK medical licenses because he was a fraud. He was backed, in the UK, by lawyers looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. He created businesses around his false data and his own vaccine "strategy".

    The Royal Free offered him 2 years to replicate his results, which he did not do, as they weren't replicable, they. were. false.
    Just made a mistake? Like, oopsies, I transposed a + with a minus and created the anti-vax movement?

    Really, that's your argument in his defense?


    https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258


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    #1582
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    .........................

    He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.

    That's a part of the science thing in nutshell


    Science <
    > Loopers

    Oh,we <
    > NO NO NO we right
    were wrong


    except of course he was a fraud to start with




    Unigenetics Ltd (Unigenetics) Laboratory in Dublin

    Ceased trading in ~ 2005

    One of the principals of the company was Dr John James O’Leary, who was associated with Trinity College and the Coombe Women’s Hospital, Dublin.

    The 11 authors, one of whom was Dr O’Leary, reported that they found measles RNA in the samples of the large majority of the developmentally disabled children, but only in a few of the developmentally normal children. They concluded that their results raised an important question, namely, does MV [measles virus] play an aetiological role in intestinal inflammation in developmental disorder?

    Dr Stephen Bustin, a PhD molecular biologist found that the laboratory obtained positive results for their negative controls in approximately one third of the testing procedures.



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    #1583
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


    Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


    You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html


    https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347


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    #1584
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    Yes, either way, the risk is tiny but that is not the point. The difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups does suggest a link however. The injuries that may have been caused by the vaccine make no difference in the overall scheme but that small statistical difference plays a huge part when it comes to receiving supports for those affected.

    When you are eliminating a much greater and much more statistically significant disease of cervical cancer (and now it seems penile and anal cancer are linked as well) the HPV vaccine is one of the biggest no-brainers ever. Up there with the smallpox and polio vaccines.


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    #1585
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    rawn wrote: »
    https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347


    You are talking to anti-vaxxers. The truth is rare.


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    #1586
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    blanch152 wrote: »
    When you are eliminating a much greater and much more statistically significant disease of cervical cancer (and now it seems penile and anal cancer are linked as well) the HPV vaccine is one of the biggest no-brainers ever. Up there with the smallpox and polio vaccines.

    I agree that the HPV vaccine is a no-brainer and if you look at my previous posts, you will see that I am 100% in favor of it. I was referring to the Pandemrix vaccine though.


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    #1587
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    blanch152 wrote:
    You are talking to anti-vaxxers. The truth is rare.


    The sad thing is they read one antivax article and take it as gospel, but refuse to even read provax articles in case it proves them wrong. I read both sides and one side had truth and science, the other has bull**** and scaremongering.


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    #1588
    sullivlo
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    CFS/ME is NOT a "symptom of adolescence"

    It is often triggered by vaccines.

    It is incurable, untreatable and disabling
    rawn wrote: »
    Source?

    Don’t bother. Grace doesn’t answer questions.


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    #1589
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    My GP is not on there!! Nor are any of his colleagues. Have you actually looked at the values on there? They are tiny! Do you have any idea how much doctors in Ireland earn? GSK paying a hospital a few thousand is not going to buy the silence of many consultants! You really are away with the fairies, aren't you?


    They may start off on small money buy if they play their cards right they can get ALOT more.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/giant-drug-firms-paying-salaries-of-two-hospital-doctors-30916060.html


    Your away with the fairies if you think for Profit companies are paying Doctors and expect nothing back in return.



    Why is it that almost all the Doctors who shout loudest about the HPV Vaccine have financial ties to the manufacturer of Vaccine ?


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    #1590
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Wakefield's moved to the US and makes a fortune peddling his garbage to the gullible there. He lost his UK medical licenses because he was a fraud. He was backed, in the UK, by lawyers looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. He created businesses around his false data and his own vaccine "strategy".

    The Royal Free offered him 2 years to replicate his results, which he did not do, as they weren't replicable, they. were. false.
    Just made a mistake? Like, oopsies, I transposed a + with a minus and created the anti-vax movement?

    Really, that's your argument in his defense?


    https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258


    He was never charged with fraud that's just BS put out by brain deer.


    They took his license away for ethical reasons.

    Its funny that his colleague Dr John Walker-Smith who faced the same charges got his medical license back after he appealed to the high court.

    You never hear that in the media.


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    #1591
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    He was never charged with fraud that's just BS put out by brain deer.


    They took his license away for ethical reasons.

    Its funny that his colleague Dr John Walker-Smith who faced the same charges got his medical license back after he appealed to the high court.

    You never hear that in the media.
    You seem to be ignoring the considerable amount of evidence against him... It's almost as if you support him because he agrees with your nonsense conspiracy.


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