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MGTOW = “men going their own way”

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    #32
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,274 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    Deleted User wrote: »
    3 kids. 4 planned.

    The kids are fine.

    How do you keep 2 women happy:pac:


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    The kids are fine.

    How do you keep 2 women happy:pac:

    carefully mostly!

    It helps they are together too.


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    #34
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

    I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides)
    Some people are a hard sell. They might get lucky at some stage, they might not. Should you keep pursuing something that's making you miserable in the hope that you'll eventually meet someone, or is it better to pursue other things you actually enjoy and leave it to fate?


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    #35
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Deleted User wrote: »
    carefully mostly!

    It helps they are together too.

    Hi, could you please elaborate on this?

    When I first read your initial post I assumed that you may have had 2 partners which ran consecutively? But from this post you are insinuating that your partners are simultaneous and even "together". Are you saying they are lovers also?


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    #36
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,322 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Mgtow is toxic for men.

    It's a psychological issue.


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    #37
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

    I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides).

    Yes, OK women probably do have very high and sometimes unlikely expectations, theyll admit that themselves. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They want somebody that will keep them happy but maybe being single and unlikely to find the right person is better than settling for somebody that doesn't match what they want.

    The way I look at it as an analogy between women in the dating game and MGTOW. You have a woman and a man sitting at a pier with a fishing rod. There's nothing to be found. The man walks away grumbling. The woman stays at the pier with the fishing rod in constant hope and won't give up on it. I probably have more respect for the woman that won't give up.

    Me, I walked away ages ago. No grumbles, I just accepted that there are no fish in that particular stretch of water. I went inland and started a self sufficient farm where I grow my own crops :pac:

    I think the MTGOW forums and videos are just stupid. Subconsciously I think they feel that if they act that way they will attract women. It defeats the purpose of what they think they are trying to do.

    I am probably what the natural MTGOW was before the nutters took over. I gave up and went my own way well before I even heard of MTGOW. I just didn't think there was a phrase for it. I just accepted that I do not fill the criteria. I'm not going to have a well paying job, I will never own a house and I'm not going to grow 3-4 inches taller :pac: I had tons of relationships with women when I was younger but the criteria changes when you're older. And I would consider myself good looking. I'm not a munter :pac:

    I don't complain about it. I don't see women as some sort of enemy. I used to work in a predominantly female work place before I lost my job and made plenty of female friends there. I got on with pretty much with everybody. Some would even want to try and set me up with their friends but I gave them a solid "absolutely no chance".

    I'd agree with this. I find the label to be nothing but cringe-inducing to be honest. I'd never say it aloud and have only done so once when a Canadian lad was trying to convince me that some sort of revolution was underway when I was abroad.

    I gave the apps a go but to be honest, they're abysmal. I tired Bumble, where women make the first move and the result was that you'd get a greeting, return it and find yourself blocked. Last woman I matched with on Tinder was some sort of life coach type from the states. We had a nice chat. She was overweight but I wasn't bothered as she seemed cool. I googled her, she had a site and some social media profiles. Her Instagram was packed with photos of her in her underwear complaining about not getting catcalled, how men couldn't handle a "real woman", various US feministy tropes and so on.

    Needless to say, I noped out of there immediately. If you do give the online thing a go lads, do your research.

    I think when you hit your thirties you begin to settle down into whatever patterns you've established for yourself and become hesitant to make big changes. For many people, they're in relationships at this stage and that's fine but for people who are single, like myself, entering one becomes daunting as they become used to being masters of themselves, their time and their domain.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #38
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #39
    CageWager
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭CageWager


    silverharp wrote: »
    there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"

    This is very true. In my experience, when dealing with women from about 28 onwards you are liable to run into a woman with “the life plan” mapped out in her head and she’s looking for a man to fill that role instead of letting a relationship happen organically. They’ll try to separate you from your hobbies and your friends and encourage you to spend your time doing things that suit her Hollywood notion of “the perfect man”.

    How many times have you heard women talk amongst themselves about their new boyfriend saying things like “When I’m finished fixing him up he’ll be great”. Imagine if a guy started dating a girl and told her to lose 2 stone and change her hobbies and stop seeing her friends.. all of a sudden its abusive, controlling, domineering etc. But when the genders are reversed the narrative is that the woman knows best.


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    #40
    Elessar
    Registered Users Posts: 5,239 ✭✭✭Elessar


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I think when you hit your thirties you begin to settle down into whatever patterns you've established for yourself and become hesitant to make big changes. For many people, they're in relationships at this stage and that's fine but for people who are single, like myself, entering one becomes daunting as they become used to being masters of themselves, their time and their domain.

    I had to reply to this as I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there. People are reluctant to change their patterns and lifestyle the older they get. I'm mid 30's myself and a single guy. I was in a relationship until last year where, although not entirely why we broke up, I did feel a bit trapped and resistant to changing the single lifestyle I had before we got together (I did try to get back with her and got my heart broken but that's another story!)

    I think now, I'm more reluctant to change and I see it in my single friends of the same age. I'm not saying I wouldn't give another relationship a go, with the right woman, but as you said I like being the master of myself, my time and my domain. It's almost like I'm settled into it.

    The older you get the harder it is to break out of that cycle IMO.


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    #41
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    I am not so sure it is fair to criticize any woman for having a " life plan ". It is completely fair enough. Give me a woman who has a plan rather than a feckless woman who doesn't any day.


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    #42
    CageWager
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭CageWager


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    I am not so sure it is fair to criticize any woman for having a " life plan ". It is completely fair enough. Give me a woman who has a plan rather than a feckless woman who doesn't any day.

    When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

    I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.


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    #43
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    CageWager wrote: »
    When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

    I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.

    Often such criteria are never accompanied by introspection or self-appraisal in my experience. You want a wealthy, athletic scholar with the wit of a professional standup? Fine but maybe think about what you're bringing to the table.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #44
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Many years ago I saw this thing. I am sure that the peoole behind this and feminism are the same. Its much more profitable to import workers from third world countries, than make people having children, spend on their education and then wait 20 or more years before being profitable. So they make other countries wasting time and money. During my very short on this mgtow as an observer, never saw they criticizing americanism and liberalism, they talk about women but not about who is behind all this.


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    #45
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    CageWager wrote: »
    When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

    I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.

    Massively agreed. I would also be very cynical about women who take on donor partners and dump them once the deed is over. But I also think that it is male prerogative to sniff this out. I dumped a partner after a long term relationship over this very reason, I got lucky all things considered.

    I do also feel very sorry for men who are victims of genuine relationship breakdown which includes children. I think the law is not very fair here. I know plenty of victims paying child support and living poorly as a result. Even worse, men who are still trapped under the same roof, an awful scenario.


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    #46
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Films, TV, media have a lot to answer for in terms of people 30+. Despite what they try to portray, your odds on finding somebody in your mid to late 30s are absolutely tiny. I got hoodwinked in my 20s into thinking I'm fine now, I'm free, society is changing, there's plenty of time when I get older. That was the message that was being sent out. It was more to comfort people who were in their 30s back then that the game isn't up.

    The reality is that the pool becomes absolutely tiny when you get into your 30s and all of the best ones are gone (that works for both sexes). Dating companies and Media don't like to acknowledge that reality because dating companies are big advertisers in media and obvious dating is a lucrative business for the dating companies. People still trying go give it a go when they are mid 30s and over is actually good for the economy.


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    #47
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Films, TV, media have a lot to answer for in terms of people 30+. Despite what they try to portray, your odds on finding somebody in your mid to late 30s are absolutely tiny. I got hoodwinked in my 20s into thinking I'm fine now, I'm free, society is changing, there's plenty of time when I get older. That was the message that was being sent out. It was more to comfort people who were in their 30s back then that the game isn't up.

    The reality is that the pool becomes absolutely tiny when you get into your 30s and all of the best ones are gone (that works for both sexes). Dating companies and Media don't like to acknowledge that reality because dating companies are big advertisers in media and obvious dating is a lucrative business for the dating companies. People still trying go give it a go when they are mid 30s and over is actually good for the economy.

    This would be my experience. I've read on various parts of this site and been told by friends that a man in his thirties has so many more options than one in his twenties but I've never seen that happen or seen it first hand. I work in a place which heavily employs highly educated young women and... zip. I'm not bitter, I just feel like it's worth pointing out.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #48
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    CageWager wrote: »
    How many times have you heard women talk amongst themselves about their new boyfriend saying things like “When I’m finished fixing him up he’ll be great”. Imagine if a guy started dating a girl and told her to lose 2 stone and change her hobbies and stop seeing her friends.. all of a sudden its abusive, controlling, domineering etc. But when the genders are reversed the narrative is that the woman knows best.
    Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

    Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

    I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and B) will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment. :D I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

    I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

    Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

    Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

    TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #49
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    silverharp wrote: »
    there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"
    This is so true, and it makes the dating scene far less appealing. There's no real fun in it now. It's difficult to get motivated when chatting online or organising dates. There's more cynicism in general.


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    #50
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    I have read online that dating apps are a farce anyway. Seemingly only 10% of males using them are being selected.

    I am not sure if it was a real survey/experiment that was carried out, but I have read on several different forums about the marketing company that set up a fake " Chad " profile on a well known dating app. A picture of a model and the opening lines included having a criminal record and included disparaging sexist remarks etc. Seemingly the profile was inundated with pm's, phone numbers and requests for a hook up.


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    #51
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    This would be my experience. I've read on various parts of this site and been told by friends that a man in his thirties has so many more options than one in his twenties but I've never seen that happen or seen it first hand.
    I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #52
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    I have read online that dating apps are a farce anyway. Seemingly only 10% of males using them are being selected.

    I am not sure if it was a real survey/experiment that was carried out, but I have read on several different forums about the marketing company that set up a fake " Chad " profile on a well known dating app. A picture of a model and the opening lines included having a criminal record and included disparaging sexist remarks etc. Seemingly the profile was inundated with pm's, phone numbers and requests for a hook up.
    Oh sure and I'd not be surprised at all. I mean look at the various crims and murderers, even serial killers that get sack loads of letters from women. Back to the "I can tame him with my love" thing maybe?

    That said make up a fake profile of some young blonde dollybird with impressively pneumatic boobage and say she's open to dating men of all ages from 20 to 60 and she's gonna be inundated as well, so...

    It;s hardly a shock to find that the good looking of both genders get more attention than the plain. The difference and advantage that men have is that unlike women they can "earn" more attraction points, both literally and figuratively. Sure, even plain enough women can get lots of online attention, but ask any woman plain or not getting that attention and it's not the attention they want. They don't have it easy either.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #53
    CageWager
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭CageWager


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

    Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

    I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and B) will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment. :D I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

    I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

    Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

    Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

    TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

    Id agree with all of this, especially the idea that quite a few married men become plough horses who blend into the background when the kids come along.

    I’m always amazed at how some of my married friends take to the role of “henpecked husband” without any resistance on their part. Maybe I’m missing the gene for putting up with other peoples notions.

    Having said all that, I have a great time with women and I don’t subscribe to the MGTOW philosophy at all - IMO men just need to set their own standards and not be bullied into living a life that they don’t want. Of course when you fully commit to being your own man you run straight into the usual feminist shaming tactics but I usually take that as a sign that I’m on the right track in life :)


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    #54
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    CageWager wrote: »
    I’m always amazed at how some of my married friends take to the role of “henpecked husband” without any resistance on their part.
    Because it's comfortable for them after a while. It becomes their life. The relationship starts out like they usually do all love and cuddles and shagging and when that shifts into the next gear then many if not most guys both expect the henpecking or are already too comfortable to risk calling them on it. Or the guy is a an actual lazy uncommunicative eejit.
    Having said all that, I have a great time with women and I don’t subscribe to the MGTOW philosophy at all - IMO men just need to set their own standards and not be bullied into living a life that they don’t want. Of course when you fully commit to being your own man you run straight into the usual feminist shaming tactics but I usually take that as a sign that I’m on the right track in life :)
    +1000 and the joke is when you think like that then you get more attention and less grief with it. I have long been convinced that when women become bored of their partners it's for good reason, they became boring. Mostly out of settling for "the quiet life". Going back to the taming bit: If you're never fully "tame" as a man, the interest is kept up. Or at least that's what I've noticed down the years in a few couples.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #55
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,800 ✭✭✭take everything


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

    Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

    I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and B) will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment. :D I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

    I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

    Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

    Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

    TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

    Wibbs typically incisive and brutal in his analysis.

    That domestication theory is hilarious (and not untrue).

    And yet the Disneyfied part of me is (faintly) yelling say it ain't so.


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    #56
    Tinytemper
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Tinytemper


    It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait.


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    #57
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.
    I stopped giving a damn in my 30's which certainly helped in many ways, but it did nothing to increase my dating options. I would have been more introverted in my 20's but there was just so many more single and crazy women back then. Some of them were extremely forward too so me being bad with social cues wasn't as much of an issue.

    Now it just seems that everyone in my age group is already taken. For example, the work nights out would have been a great opportunity back in the day, but now, much less so. Nightclubs are out of the question too. Although there is more things to do now outside of the pub/club scene than there was 10 or 15 years ago.


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    #58
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait.

    There seems to be a difference between the incels and the MGTOW in the sense that the latter are more likely to have been men who have had relationships that went sour rather than never getting a sniff at all. The MGTOW crowd seem to be an older demographic too. Though to be fair my exposure to either is mercifully low so could be all wrong there. Both can be bitter alright, but from different angles. A divorce or breakup of a long termer can make people bitter handily enough. Men and women both, though I've generally found women are far better at resetting the mechanism after something like that. I have had the post relationship WTF and disillusionment thing myself. I don't think it made me bitter at the time, though it made me far more wary and reticent to get into anything like that again. I still went out with women, some for quite a time too, but kept my guard up.

    Actually what did make me WTF and yes a little more cynical was that being more guarded got me more attention and fewer outbursts of hassle. That said maybe I had been too open before and the reset back to more balanced was required. So there's that aspect too. I was never one of those treat em mean, keep em keen prick though. Or certainly never aimed to be.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #59
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    There is your incel that doesn't have a chance, never had a chance, Hates women, most likely has mental health issues. Pretty much hates everything.

    Then there is generally 2 types of MGTOW.

    You have the MGTOW that are bitter and yurn to be able to attract women but would get a satisfaction from turning women down as a form of payback.

    Then you have men that would just say OK, I'm not going to play the game, so I'll be fully content doing something else. May or may not be open to opportunities if they fell onto your lap but she'd have to practically spray paint it on a wall to convince you to move away from your direction.


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    #60
    8kczg9v0swrydm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭8kczg9v0swrydm


    Although I would not sympathise with MGTOW views, I can completely understand them. I can especially see why many men are shunning marriage.

    I think few may admit this, but (I dare say) most men find female promiscuity repulsive. At the bottom of their psychies, men do not want to marry women who had many sexual partners. Sure, they might have a fling with them, but rarely proper commitment.

    Since our culture is so heavily sexualised, men find that a lot of the women they meet have 'been around the block'. The more squeamish men might despair of finding true love and building a lasting relationship and dive headlong into work and hobbies. Unless they have certain predispositions, this will be an unnatural life and will therefore, more than likely, not bring them happiness. (This is one of my biggest gripes with MGTOW).

    Many of the men who stay on in the dating game will not commit to marriage, hence our plummeting marriage rates. Meanwhile, women find themselves used and discarded, often not realising why. It is also worth mentioning that promiscuity among both sexes impairs the ability to bond properly with one person.

    As a side note, I think that the solution to this madness is to once more embrace traditional views on sexuality (as appropriate only within the context of marriage). For men disillusioned with women, I would advise them to seek out a partner from the traditionally-minded communities, where promiscuity is still a no-no.


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    #61
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.

    Unfortunately, I think I have to agree. I'd definitely be a bit of an introvert who likes to just relax with a book, film or strategy game none of which are conducive to attracting a partner. Still though, I think I'd rather do things I enjoy than just jump through hoops to attract someone.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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