No hijabs need apply.

Donal55 · 14-03-2017 9:03pm #1

Well thats it.
The ECJ ruled today that employers may bar those that wear political or religious garb in the workplace and not be confronted with the word, discrimination.

The court gave judgement after two women were dismissed from their jobs in France and Belgium for refusing to remove their hijab.

My own view is that an employee who takes up work in a job has to adhere to certain policies and codes for example bullying and absenteeism. If an employer decides that you can't wear a crucifix or a hijab as part of a dress code so be it.
Don't go saying its discrimination.

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 9:10pm

So I can't wear my Fedora to work tomorrow?

OldMrBrennan83 · 14-03-2017 9:11pm

This post has been deleted.

me_irl · 14-03-2017 9:13pm

jameorahiely wrote: »

So I can't wear my Fedora to work tomorrow?

If you praise at the church of neckbeards, then no m'boardsie. :pac:

DrumSteve · 14-03-2017 9:14pm

EU trying to keep all the right wingers onside with this one.

I do agree to a certain extent though, if I rock up to work wearing a balaclava I'd be told to get out.

Paleblood · 14-03-2017 9:19pm

"In fairness though, its not the crucifix I'm normally looking at when watching women's tennis."

I do have my eyes on the Korannnouuuwaaadaaaatt.

Winterlong · 14-03-2017 9:22pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

EU trying to keep all the right wingers onside with this one.

.

Nail on the head.
Wilders is on track to get about 15% of the Dutch seats. Le Pen is polling highest individually in the current round of the french election (but likely to get beaten by a combined left in the final). The right is getting stronger which is a worry to the liberal hearted EU.

Rumpy Pumpy · 14-03-2017 9:25pm

jameorahiely wrote: »

So I can't wear my Fedora to work tomorrow?

First they take your fedora; soon it will be your combats, wallet chain and death metal tshirt.

corner of hells · 14-03-2017 9:26pm

jameorahiely wrote: »

So I can't wear my Fedora to work tomorrow?

No , and you're not to wear your angorra either.

Your Face · 14-03-2017 9:39pm

Always keep your jabs high.

Mountainsandh · 14-03-2017 9:46pm

Winterlong wrote: »

Nail on the head.
Wilders is on track to get about 15% of the Dutch seats. Le Pen is polling highest individually in the current round of the french election (but likely to get beaten by a combined left in the final). The right is getting stronger which is a worry to the liberal hearted EU.

France's attachment to laicism predates Marine Le Pen.

end of the road · 14-03-2017 9:48pm

Winterlong wrote: »

Nail on the head.
Wilders is on track to get about 15% of the Dutch seats. Le Pen is polling highest individually in the current round of the french election (but likely to get beaten by a combined left in the final). The right is getting stronger which is a worry to the liberal hearted EU.

the court operates on the basis of law. not the basis of pleasing left wing or right wing. it isn't going to make a decisian on the basis of pleasing those on the far right or any other political viewpoint, as much as some might like to think they would.
in terms of EU law, it was never illegal for an employer to stop people wearing religious garments or symbols, as long as it was across the board and the dress code was nutral. each individual country may have separate laws on the issue however. i should think any case that was found to be discrimination on this issue, was found to be so on the basis that the dress code the employers had weren't nutral, religious symbols were banned but nothing else, and those employees were disciplined for wearing religious symbols when other symbols weren't banned. so this case does not change the fact that an employer can't decide to pick on whatever religion they fancy and cannot discriminate against someone on the basis of their religion.

GhostyMcGhost · 14-03-2017 10:06pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

I do agree to a certain extent though, if I rock up to work wearing a balaclava I'd be told to get out.

If you worked in a bank... yes

... For the 'RA... you'd be grand

14-03-2017 10:36pm

What if i just call it a headscarf?

RiderOnTheStorm · 14-03-2017 10:47pm

Donal55 wrote:

..... The ECJ ruled today that employers may bar those that wear political or religious garb in the workplace ....

MAY bar wearing..... They don't have to. Its not a law or recommendation. Just that they can do it, and it won't be discrimination. And, if they do bar religious garb, it will have to include all religious garb & icons, including Christian crucifix , Jewish skull cap, and turban.

Donal55 · 14-03-2017 11:07pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

MAY bar wearing..... They don't have to. Its not a law or recommendation. Just that they can do it, and it won't be discrimination. And, if they do bar religious garb, it will have to include all religious garb & icons, including Christian crucifix , Jewish skull cap, and turban.

Thats what I said. Thanks for reminding me.

Donal55 · 14-03-2017 11:10pm

bubblypop wrote: »

What if i just call it a headscarf?

Its what your employer calls it that counts. And whether its included in a dress code.

RiderOnTheStorm · 14-03-2017 11:18pm

Donal55 wrote:

Thats what I said. Thanks for reminding me.

Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood :-)

Permabear · 14-03-2017 11:50pm

This post has been deleted.

The Backwards Man · 15-03-2017 12:00am

It's a poor bogman that judges a turf footer by what they wear on their head.

Mountainsandh · 15-03-2017 12:29am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear I don't know...
I would argue that it's the opposite happened.
I would argue that there was probably more employment for them and less discrimination when Islam and terrorism were less ominous in France.
I grew up there and in the 80s and 90s, tbh, it felt like a golden age of integration. Of course, not quite idyllic either, some incidents here and there. Overall though, I saw many many Muslim people very well integrated, working, and pretty much unconcerned about whether their female members were wearing hijabs or other religious garments all day.

Ah no, maybe not "unconcerned". Maybe some more practicing families would have had a grumbling Dad or older brother. But sure, the girls in my class weren't wearing anything in school, and other than grudgingly sticking to the Ramadan, and being good girls, they didn't feel an awful lot of pressure, and showed no inclination to wear any scarf. They did have the lovely pendants with the hand, or little stars for the Jewish girls (and boys). They did the Henna thing too, that was cool.

I am from a town with a very strong Jewish community, and a normal sized Muslim community. It's not a particularly posh town, my lycee was not particularly posh. Of the people in my Lycee class (Muslim or Jewish) that I kept in touch (or occasionally spy on

) with on Facebook, there's an actor in Paris, some other guy who's in engineering or something, a girl who's in HR I think... Two of my very best friends, one Arab guy (he's kabyle) is a very highly ranked solicitor, and my childhood best friend, a Jewish girl, is a career woman with some photo printing big company, gallivanting the planet on company trips.

In my days terrorist cells and radicalized Muslims were little bubbles that we rarely heard about.

The rest of Muslims went about their daily lives, without feeling the need to placard their Muslimhood. They were proud alright, would talk about being Muslim and practice proudly, go on about going to the bled in the summer, but that was all in good camaraderie.
And they had jobs.
Their Dads were all employed : council workers, construction workers, shops, food outlets ... I suppose the parents' generation weren't as educated as my generation, the language was a little bit of a weakness for other jobs. Jewish people were all very well off, in very good jobs. The ladies didn't like showing their hair either, so around where I lived, it was frequent to see them wearing wigs. Not all, just whoever wanted I guess.
Maybe I didn't see the badness as I was young.

But I'm not sure about that constant cause and effect link between unemployment+discrimination=terrorism.

How about tempering it a bit with terrorism + radicalization = unemployment and discrimination.

It's a mix of both I think.

I see the decision that is the topic of this thread as an attempt to set a limit to overt radicalization within a work environment, not discrimination.

Donal55 · 15-03-2017 12:31am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

On the contrary, I think this ruling actually clarifies everything once and for all. Dress codes were they exist will have to be totally inclusive and be directed at all members of the workplace be they Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or other. Furthermore, it also identifies political attire or insignia as being discriminatory if only one ideal is portrayed as opposed to all.
Its up to HR depts be they public or private sector to look at their policies from now on.

Stheno · 15-03-2017 12:36am

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

MAY bar wearing..... They don't have to. Its not a law or recommendation. Just that they can do it, and it won't be discrimination. And, if they do bar religious garb, it will have to include all religious garb & icons, including Christian crucifix , Jewish skull cap, and turban.

Well said, you forgot to say however that it's only customer facing employees to whom this ruling applies, and only if the company have a religion neutral dress code within their company policy.

Junkyard Tom · 15-03-2017 12:36am

I hope the public boycott businesses and organisations that get zealous about this ruling.

Stheno · 15-03-2017 12:38am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I hope the public boycott businesses and organisations that get zealous about this ruling.

I don't actually, I'm atheist, and dislike having any religion causing people to dress or adorn themselves in a way that causes their identity to be suborned by the religious iconograghy they wear, or how they dress.

I'd happily see all religious related dress forbidden

Charles Babbage · 15-03-2017 12:39am

DrumSteve wrote: »

EU trying to keep all the right wingers onside with this one.

I do agree to a certain extent though, if I rock up to work wearing a balaclava I'd be told to get out.

Not half as quick as if you were a nudist!

Junkyard Tom · 15-03-2017 12:41am

Stheno wrote: »

I'd happily see all religious related dress forbidden

Atheist intolerance/zealotry? Interesting.

15-03-2017 12:41am

I think this is great, in some jobs I wouldn't be concerned about someone wearing a hijab really, I mean if it's against the dress code it's not ideal- but my personal issue with it is in jobs where there are high security, for example midwives, bankers etc.

I could never understand how midwives, doctors and nurses were allowed to wear hijabs particularly for security reasons but also for health and safety seeing as wearing long sleeves under a tunic isn't permitted in hospitals

Pinch Flat · 15-03-2017 12:41am

I wear a Tam-o-Shanter to work. Anyone says anything, I'm suing.

15-03-2017 12:48am

Stheno wrote: »

I don't actually, I'm atheist, and dislike having any religion causing people to dress or adorn themselves in a way that causes their identity to be suborned by the religious iconograghy they wear, or how they dress.

I'd happily see all religious related dress forbidden

I'm an atheist, but i have no problems with people wearing religious clothing.
Each to their own i guess.

The Backwards Man · 15-03-2017 12:53am

Stheno wrote: »

I don't actually, I'm atheist, and dislike having any religion causing people to dress or adorn themselves in a way that causes their identity to be suborned by the religious iconograghy they wear, or how they dress.

I'd happily see all religious related dress forbidden

I wouldn't agree with that tbh. I'd be against both theists and atheists judging a coworker on their beliefs alone. Atheists have has little right to push their preferences on who I employ as devout Christians, Muslims, Scientologists or whomever else.

I'm a takeyouasifindyouist, as everyone with any sense should be

No hijabs need apply.

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