Tyson Fury (undisputed world champion!) vs Vladimir SEE MOD WARNING POST#558

Fall_Guy · 28-07-2015 5:24pm

walshb wrote: »

Chill out, and slow down. To many people it is not Ireland. That was my point. Loyalists and Orangemen see it as part of the UK.

And people from Northern Ireland who Identify themselves as Irish would see it as part of Ireland. Your point?

walshb · 28-07-2015 5:25pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

And people who Identify themselves as Irish would see it as part of Ireland. Your point?

My point is as the above post says. Belfast is not Ireland to many people. Not sure what is confusing there.

Frank Bullitt · 28-07-2015 5:28pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

And people from Northern Ireland who Identify themselves as Irish would see it as part of Ireland. Your point?

They still use sterling, their national anthem is "God save the Queen, its recognized as part of the U.K.

These are just facts about this. They can call themselves Irish all they want, Belfast will still be in the U.K.

walshb · 28-07-2015 5:30pm

Bottom line is that Fury will be a British HW world champion (with Irish connections) should he win.

Fall_Guy · 28-07-2015 5:45pm

Gintonious wrote: »

They still use sterling, their national anthem is "God save the Queen, its recognized as part of the U.K.

These are just facts about this. They can call themselves Irish all they want, Belfast will still be in the U.K.

Belfast may be in the UK, but it is also a fact that Irish Nationality law allows for dual citizenship, and anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship. Making them as Irish as anyone born in the Republic in the eyes of the law...

Its all a moot point as national identity is not a rigid thing based on place of birth, if it was then as mentioned earlier, Andy Lee would not be considered Irish by that criteria either.

Joeseph Balls · 28-07-2015 6:48pm

We were due this debate in fairness. Hasnt been one in a couple of months!!!:rolleyes:

megadodge · 28-07-2015 10:02pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Apologies Joe Louis' record for years holding the title.
While I would agree Fury has lasted 12 rounds fairly well this was against very poor opposition and would also point out that fury's movement is usually on a major downward spiral come the 8th round even against his most unfit of Opponents. I have never been a fan of Fury's however I had the chance to attend his bout with kevin Johnson and I must say it was dire the crowd boo'd consistently for the latter rounds as both men struggled to offer up much in the way of a spectacle. Fury threw his signature jabs and Johnson was content to be hit by them and that pretty much summed up the fight. Fury's chin is also suspect as proved by steve cunningham who isn't regarded as a power puncher at cruiser weight never mind heavy weight. I just feel fury is a massive hype job(while this is also true for other boxers none more so than Anthony Joshua), they generally still back it up with their application of the fundamental skills of boxing and with eye catching displays, this is not the case for fury in my opinion. He's not a crowd pleasing boxer but to me he doesn't appeal to the people who appreciate the technical side of boxing either, his jab is his forté but he generates little power in it and his other range of shots are limited at best and most look painfully awkward when he's throwing them. He also likes to push and lean on fighters something a top fighter will punish him for. I'm all for supporting local fighters but I just feel Fury offers little to instill confidence in his abilities (even though he has great confidence in himself). There a very few people who can be in proper fight condition and yet still not look fit! MMA legend fedor emelianenko is actually the only combat athlete I can think of and as for modern boxers they're either ripped and in condition or chubby/fat/overweight and out of condition. I know it's a stereotype but it really does ring true in the modern era of boxing.

Kevin Johnson has never been in an exciting bout. That's the way he fights. Fury went the 12 rounds very comfortably.

Leaning on fighters was a Lennox Lewis speciality and leaning on and holding is a Vladimir speciality. I don't think either of them would not be regarded as a top fighter. Besides, I'd be interested in hearing how you think a top fighter would actually punish someone who's leaning on him. The only person who could do that is the referee.

One of the greatest heavyweights of them all was Larry Holmes. And Larry had a fat arse and a 'soft' look, but boy could he fight and his stamina was fantastic.

Having said all that, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. You make plenty of valid points which I agree with, but I'm still intrigued in this fight just to see how Vladimir copes with someone so big, who isn't afraid of him.

boxer.fan · 28-07-2015 11:27pm

megadodge wrote: »

Having said all that, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. You make plenty of valid points which I agree with, but I'm still intrigued in this fight just to see how Vladimir copes with someone so big, who isn't afraid of him.

This is true. We know that Vladimir can be rocked if his chin can be found. We also know that Fury can be floored. I'm going with Klitschko for he win, mainly because I think he is more ring intelligent. If Fury had actually got to fight Haye we might have known more of what he can do at this level.

walshb · 29-07-2015 12:01pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Its all a moot point as national identity is not a rigid thing based on place of birth, if it was then as mentioned earlier, Andy Lee would not be considered Irish by that criteria either.

I agree. It is not all about place of birth. I consider a number of factors. Lee for me is more Irish than Macklin and Fury. I associate Lee as an Irish fighter. Lived here for several years, represented an Irish boxing club, boxed for Ireland, represented Ireland at the Olympics, has Irish lineage/parentage, and is happy to be called an Irishman as far as I know. It's the factors added up that I look at. The other two have strong Irish connections. I do not doubt that. I just do not see them as Irish fighters. Both born and lived their lives in England. Reared there, and never fought for Ireland at amateur level as far as I know.

Here is one for debate. A loyalist/Unionist up North who was born on the island of Ireland. Wins a world belt. Do we claim him as an Irish WC, knowing that he most likely/definitely sees himself as not an Irish person. He sees himself as British? I wouldn't at all try to claim him.

Is Carl Frampton an Irish WC? I don't see it. I would also think that he himself considers himself to be British. Unless he comes out and says otherwise. If asked the question how would he answer? Are you an Irish WC or a British WC?

Mantis Toboggan · 29-07-2015 12:15pm

Macklin played under 16 hurling for tipperary. Anybody who does that I'm happy enough for them to be Irish if they want. Regarding Fury I think he did represent Ireland at different levels but was prevented from representing us in the Olympics.

walshb · 29-07-2015 12:23pm

Dennis Reynolds wrote: »

Macklin played under 16 hurling for tipperary. Anybody who does that I'm happy enough for them to be Irish if they want. Regarding Fury I think he did represent Ireland at different levels but was presented from representing us in the Olympics.

I stand corrected with Fury representing Ireland at amateur level then. I didn't know that he represented Ireland (wore the green vest) in an official capacity. I thought that he boxed within Ireland in IABA events.#

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/boxing/fury-ous-tyson-to-hit-back-958557

Interesting: "Fury twice boxed for Ireland, against Poland and the USA - winning both bouts by knockout - but was forced out of the Irish national championships after protests about his eligibility."

And it seems he sought to represent Ireland at the Olympics only after the British effort failed? I could be interpreting this incorrectly. It's ambiguous.

"National amateur coach Edwards made it plain that Fury had taken himself off the Great Britain programme when he sought to qualify for the Olympics through his Irish ancestry."

How was he eligible to represent Ireland yet not eligible to compete in our national championships?

selectamatic · 29-07-2015 1:40pm

megadodge wrote: »

Kevin Johnson has never been in an exciting bout. That's the way he fights. Fury went the 12 rounds very comfortably.

Leaning on fighters was a Lennox Lewis speciality and leaning on and holding is a Vladimir speciality. I don't think either of them would not be regarded as a top fighter. Besides, I'd be interested in hearing how you think a top fighter would actually punish someone who's leaning on him. The only person who could do that is the referee.

One of the greatest heavyweights of them all was Larry Holmes. And Larry had a fat arse and a 'soft' look, but boy could he fight and his stamina was fantastic.

Having said all that, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. You make plenty of valid points which I agree with, but I'm still intrigued in this fight just to see how Vladimir copes with someone so big, who isn't afraid of him.

I very much agree with you on Johnson never being exciting but my point was more to do with Fury's role in that fight he should have been looking to lay down a marker much like Anthony Joshua did recently however he appeared to be unable to do this and resigned himself to a points victory.
Apologies for causing some confusion on the "leaning" What I meant was a top fighter would in essence have the strength to deal with this and escape for want of a better expression. This could lead to fury's main defense strategy being partly nullified and it would force him to be more active than he may be comfortable with as he does like to take "breathers" in rounds.
An excellent point about Larry I truly believe him to be an astoundingly under rated boxing legend his snappy yet powerful jab was a sight to behold yet I would say that he did appear to be slightly trimmer in his hay day than he was in later years. I'm not for one minute suggesting Fury is grossly overweight far from it however I feel he could stand to trim up better than he has been for previous fights. I feel klitchko will be able to deal with fury however as you said Fury's size will make it interesting and it will also prevent Klitchko from using his pulling and dragging antics from some of his previous fights.

Rhys Essien · 29-07-2015 2:02pm

Tyson and Vlad in happier times.Before Tyson said 'there is more charisma in his underpants' than what Vlad has.:D

125986

walshb · 29-07-2015 2:03pm

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Tyson and Vlad in happier times.Before Tyson said 'there is more charisma in his underpants' than what Vlad has.:D

Such a shame they have to go to war!:)

Rhys Essien · 29-07-2015 2:09pm

Id say that picture is from the training camp they had in Austria in 2010.

Rhys Essien · 29-07-2015 2:26pm

Heavyweight Con Sheehan is having his first pro fight shortly.Anyone know any info on it?

He has nothing about it on his Twitter.

https://twitter.com/consheehan89

Frank Bullitt · 29-07-2015 5:23pm

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Tyson and Vlad in happier times.Before Tyson said 'there is more charisma in his underpants' than what Vlad has.:D

When they are side by side, the size difference isn't as huge as I would have thought.

walshb · 29-07-2015 5:27pm

Gintonious wrote: »

When they are side by side, the size difference isn't as huge as I would have thought.

I was thinking that too from recent photos of them together. Maybe 2 inches in height maximum. Fury is then juts heavier looking all around.

Frank Bullitt · 29-07-2015 6:32pm

walshb wrote: »

I was thinking that too from recent photos of them together. Maybe 2 inches in height maximum. Fury is then juts heavier looking all around.

I suppose its almost splitting hairs in some regards one a HW is above 6'4 or so. Fury holds his weight differently to Wladimir. He naturally looks a little softer (not a representation of conditioning) whereas Wlad generally looks in great condition even outside of camp.

Mantis Toboggan · 04-09-2015 4:03pm

Confirmed for sky box office.

Anyone following fury on twitter? He's been on fire recently, pure comedy.

walshb · 04-09-2015 4:18pm

This for me is a bit like Haye-Fury. I won't believe it till the first bell sounds.

walshb · 04-09-2015 4:22pm

If Fury can't hurt or get Wlad's respect I think he's in for a a real beating. He needs to whack Wlad hard.

Littlehorny · 04-09-2015 5:29pm

Unless Wlad has aged about 10 years in the last one then i don't give Fury a hope in hell.

hawkeyethenoo · 04-09-2015 11:37pm

walshb wrote: »

This for me is a bit like Haye-Fury. I won't believe it till the first bell sounds.

haye knew from the first round he couldn't win and just wanted to go the distance, i have no doubt at all that fury will be a man of his word and go for it, this will not be another haye wlad, its possible fury might be outclassed but he will die trying.

StringerBell · 05-09-2015 9:22pm

He did say Haye-Fury not Haye-Klitschko though

Joeseph Balls · 05-09-2015 11:23pm

StringerBell wrote: »

He did say Haye-Fury not Haye-Klitschko though

In fairness that was hayes fault. Fury, I can't see pulling out. Sure, Imo, fury gets his ass handed to him, but he'll come to fight.

hawkeyethenoo · 06-09-2015 10:11am

StringerBell wrote: »

He did say Haye-Fury not Haye-Klitschko though

ah yes, apologies.

Mantis Toboggan · 06-09-2015 12:30pm

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

In fairness that was hayes fault. Fury, I can't see pulling out. Sure, Imo, fury gets his ass handed to him, but he'll come to fight.

Said he'd retire if cannot beat him. He probably will, after all he's retired before!!