Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

walshb · 30-10-2015 2:12pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Everything that happened subsequently would suggest they thought that "well, no, this guy is entirely replaceable and it would be far from a catastrophe if we lose him, he's just another cog in the wheel, and besides he's starting to get too big for his boots and we can't be having that."

And I don't see anything at all wrong if that is how they thought. They, not me. They are the ones involved.

Strazdas · 30-10-2015 2:33pm

walshb wrote: »

And I don't see anything at all wrong if that is how they thought. They, not me. They are the ones involved.

That is where I would accuse them of complete mediocrity. To think that losing a world class boxing coach (one who has just been signed by an Olympic superpower to head up their programme) is of little or no consequence and that there are twenty Irish coaches who could replace him is mind boggling stuff.

walshb · 30-10-2015 2:39pm

Strazdas wrote: »

That is where I would accuse them of complete mediocrity. To think that losing a world class boxing coach (one who has just been signed by an Olympic superpower to head up their programme) is of little or no consequence and that there are twenty Irish coaches who could replace him is mind boggling stuff.

No, it is not. You are not that close to the HP-IABA-Team set up and Billy. The IABA are a lot closer. The HP is a team. Maybe they really do believe that Billy is replaceable. I find it bizarre the amount of credit being heaped upon him by people who are simply counting medals. No doubt, he was influential, and me personally would bet that he was very influential, but in no way would I say that is not replaceable. It's a very individual sport. The boxers win the medals. Their prep and team aid and help them. According to some mickey mouse could train the lads to medals.

Strazdas · 30-10-2015 2:52pm

walshb wrote: »

No, it is not. You are not that close to the HP-IABA-Team set up and Billy. The IABA are a lot closer. The HP is a team. Maybe they really do believe that Billy is replaceable. I find it bizarre the amount of credit being heaped upon him by people who are simply counting medals. No doubt, he was influential, and me personally would bet that he was very influential, but in no way would I say that is not replaceable. It's a very individual sport. The boxers win the medals. Their prep and team aid and help them. According to some mickey mouse could train the lads to medals.

Why have USA Boxing come looking for him then and offered him a big salary? There must be hundreds of boxing coaches in the US who they could offer the job to.

walshb · 30-10-2015 3:01pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Why have USA Boxing come looking for him then and offered him a big salary? There must be hundreds of boxing coaches in the US who they could offer the job to.

Desperation?

I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

Joe_ Public · 30-10-2015 3:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Desperation?

I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

Or you could just read their statement. It's all in there, read between the lines and you know they just can't believe their luck in being able to land a coach with Billy's record from one of their main rivals so close to the Games.

walshb · 30-10-2015 3:13pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Or you could just read their statement. It's all in there, read between the lines and you know they just can't believe their luck in being able to land a coach with Billy's record from one of their main rivals so close to the Games.

Whatever about their statement there is no guarantee that their medal haul improves in Rio. I may be wrong but the U.S have not topped the medals in boxing since Seoul, 1988. Cuba missed those games. Since then their medals have dwindled.

Now, if Billy does not get results that won't make him a bad coach or an average/ordinary coach. It's so much more about the boxer and the talent, as well as the subjectivity of the sport and judging.

Could it be a simple case of "We are not performing well the past 25 years. LooK at the Irish. Their medals have been steady and they are doing very well. We have tried several coaches and systems. Our medals are still not increasing. Let's try Billy. Sure what is the worst that can happen? We keep losing?"

To me it's an air of desperation on the part of team USA.

Far too much emphasis is being placed on medals and the U.S. offering Billy a contract.

Joe_ Public · 30-10-2015 3:30pm

walshb wrote: »

Whatever about their statemenet there is no guarantee that their medal haul improves in Rio. I may be wrong but the U.S have not topped the medals in boxing since Seoul, 1988. Cuba missed those games. Since then their medals have dwindled.

Now, if Billy does not get results that won't make him a bad coach or an average/ordinary coach. It's so much more about the boxer and the talent.

Could it be a simole case of "We are not performing well the past 25 years. LooK at the Irish. Their medals have been steady and they are doing very well. We have tried several coaches and systems. Our medals are still not increasing. Let's try Billy. Sure what is the worst that can happen? We keep losing?"

To me it's an air of desperation on the part of team USA.

Far too much emphasis is being placed on medals and the U.S. offering Billy a contract.

Of course there are no guarantees, everybody knows that. I doubt the USA have brought him in so they can suddenly target a swathe of medals in Rio. It's surely with a more long-term vision in place, with any success next year considered a bonus.

You're talking about USA men's boxing, where Billy is employed as womens' head coach. Now it may well be that he's involved in the men's side as well, that has been suggested in a couple of reports, but I don't know that. It would probably be the next logical step for him anyway if this job goes well.

I suppose it could be along the lines you are suggesting, arra sure let's just give this guy a spin and see how it goes, you never know, or else they have been observing him for several years, seen how the Irish HP program has developed into one of the best in the world and finally landed their man.

Or maybe they had a discussion along these lines "hmm those Irish are doing really well, they've obviously got a world class set-up there, we should try and recruit some of their people. Now who will we get? I don't know about that coach, he could just be a Billy Big Boots hogging all the credit. Maybe we should be looking at the whizz kids on the board instead, they're probably doing all the work and getting none of the credit. Hmmm this is a really tough one, i don't know who we should go for..."

walshb · 30-10-2015 3:33pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Of course there are no guarantees, everybody knows that. I doubt the USA have brought him in so they can suddenly target a swathe of medals in Rio. It's surely with a more long-term vision in place, with any success next year considered a bonus.

You're talking about USA men's boxing, where Billy is employed as womens' head coach. Now it may well be that he's involved in the men's side as well, that has been suggested in a couple of reports, but I don't know that. It would probably be the next logical step for him anyway if this job goes well.

I suppose it could be along the lines you are suggesting, arra sure let's just give this guy a spin and see how it goes, you never know, or else they have been observing him for several years, seen how the Irish HP program has developed into one of the best in the world and finally landed their man.

Or maybe they had a discussion along these lines "hmm those Irish are doing really well, they've obviously got a world class set-up there, we should try and recruit some of their people. Now who will we get? I don't know about that coach, he could just be a Billy Big Boots hogging all the credit. Maybe we should be looking at the whizz kids on the board instead, they're probably doing all the work and getting none of the credit. Hmmm this is a really tough one, i don't know who we should go for..."

Yes, I was wrong. Right now it is women's boxing. Which in a way doesn't make huge sense. There are only 3 weights there, and really, if they were clever they would have tried to recruit Pete Taylor.....It's only the 2nd games where the women will compete. Is it a case of the U.S simply being daft-desperate? As mentioned, surely in the whole of the country they could come up with someone to take the job? Maybe they tried others and they didn't want it.

In a nutshell I think the offfer from U.S. boxing is not all that significant as regards something to bolster the side of Billy Walsh. Maybe to many others it's a real indicator of his worth, and maybe the U.S. know more than me. Anyway, let's wait and count the 3 gold medals being handed out in Rio. I believe it is only 3 weights again. So, that is 12 medals as far as I know, unless they bring in a 3rd place box off.

The men had their worst ever olympic showing in London with 0 medals, and the women won 2/12 medals; a gold at MW and a bronze at Fly

Strazdas · 30-10-2015 3:52pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong. Right now it is women's boxing. Which in a way doesn't make huge sense. There are only 3 weights there, and really, if they were clever they would have tried to recruit Pete Taylor.....It's only the 2nd games where the women will compete. Is it a case of the U.S simply being daft-desperate? As mentioned, surely in the whole of the country they could come up with someone to take the job? Maybe they tried others and they didn't want it.

In a nutshell I think the offfer from U.S. boxing is not all that significant as regards something to bolster the side of Billy Walsh. Maybe to many others it's a real indicator of his worth, and maybe the U.S. know more than me. Anyway, let's wait and count the 3 gold medals being handed out in Rio. I believe it is only 3 weights again. So, that is 12 medals as far as I know, unless they bring in a 3rd place box off.

The men had their worst ever olympic showing in London with 0 medals, and the women won 2/12 medals; a gold at MW and a bronze at Fly

This clearly is a long term appointment though. Billy Walsh has already said in the last week that he doesn't believe there is anyone in the US women's boxing programme who can get near Katie Taylor at the moment. That's no slur on his new team, just an indication of how dominant she is in world boxing. I imagine the Olympics in 2020 is when we would be looking to see how much progress Walsh is making.

Donald Trump · 30-10-2015 3:56pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong. Right now it is women's boxing. Which in a way doesn't make huge sense. There are only 3 weights there, and really, if they were clever they would have tried to recruit Pete Taylor.....It's only the 2nd games where the women will compete. Is it a case of the U.S simply being daft-desperate? As mentioned, surely in the whole of the country they could come up with someone to take the job? Maybe they tried others and they didn't want it.

In a nutshell I think the offfer from U.S. boxing is not all that significant as regards something to bolster the side of Billy Walsh. Maybe to many others it's a real indicator of his worth, and maybe the U.S. know more than me. Anyway, let's wait and count the 3 gold medals being handed out in Rio. I believe it is only 3 weights again. So, that is 12 medals as far as I know, unless they bring in a 3rd place box off.

The men had their worst ever olympic showing in London with 0 medals, and the women won 2/12 medals; a gold at MW and a bronze at Fly

The USA are actually relatively strong on the womens side in terms of winning medals. Their two Olympic medalists are still around (although one was beaten in their trials but I think has a back door option). Both won gold at their last World Championships

As for the girl moving down to compete at lightweight and might end up facing Katie Taylor.....let's just say that I'd like to see her box

walshb · 30-10-2015 3:56pm

Strazdas wrote: »

This clearly is a long term appointment though. Billy Walsh has already said in the last week that he doesn't believe there is anyone in the US women's boxing programme who can get near Katie Taylor at the moment. That's no slur on his new team, just an indication of how dominant she is in world boxing. I imagine the Olympics in 2020 is when we would be looking to see how much progress Walsh is making.

That's fair enough. No matter spin is put on it I think it's far too overplayed. 2020? We could all be dead by then.

price690 · 30-10-2015 4:02pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

The USA are actually relatively strong on the womens side in terms of winning medals. Their two Olympic medalists are still around (although one was beaten in their trials but I think has a back door option). Both won gold at their last World Championships

As for the girl moving down to compete at lightweight and might end up facing Katie Taylor.....let's just say that I'd like to see her box

Was she successful at 64kgs?

I take it she will be a big lightweight? Who is she?

Joe_ Public · 30-10-2015 4:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong. Right now it is women's boxing. Which in a way doesn't make huge sense. There are only 3 weights there, and really, if they were clever they would have tried to recruit Pete Taylor.....It's only the 2nd games where the women will compete. Is it a case of the U.S simply being daft-desperate? As mentioned, surely in the whole of the country they could come up with someone to take the job? Maybe they tried others and they didn't want it.

In a nutshell I think the offfer from U.S. boxing is not all that significant as regards something to bolster the side of Billy Walsh. Maybe to many others it's a real indicator of his worth, and maybe the U.S. know more than me. Anyway, let's wait and count the 3 gold medals being handed out in Rio. I believe it is only 3 weights again. So, that is 12 medals as far as I know, unless they bring in a 3rd place box off.

The men had their worst ever olympic showing in London with 0 medals, and the women won 2/12 medals; a gold at MW and a bronze at Fly

Pete Taylor? I don't know, massive respect for him for how he's helped Katie and what he's done in Bray, but he's not in Billy's league when it comes to heading a program or leading a team of international boxers so can't see any reason why the USA would target him. Plus, he can't and won't leave Katie so it's a non-starter on more than one level.

I don't know, you're asking so many questions, like they're designed to be statements, it's hard to know how to respond. It seems obvious the USA valued him because of his credentials, his record and they were keen to acquire his services - because it wasn't the first time they'd approached him - so that's all I have to go on. Their statement seems to copperfasten that, so beyond that, I can't answer you or offer any more compelling insight.

Joe_ Public · 30-10-2015 4:08pm

price690 wrote: »

Was she successful at 64kgs?

I take it she will be a big lightweight? Who is she?

I'd have to check but I think Mayer won the Olympic trials last week? There was a bit of controversy after she beat the 18-year-old who looks a future star in the semi-final, a lot of commentators seemed to believe the younger boxer should have won the fight.

I think Mayer isn't in Katie's class, but it's not guaranteed she'll have the Olympic place yet, although I wouldn't claim that as gospel.

Edit: The trials aren't actually completed yet, so not quite accurate in that. Jajaira Gonzales is the kid I was referring to, she looks a potentially top class contender and she's still in contention for Rio, but would she have the smarts for Katie Taylor at his juncture? Very doubtful to say the least.

walshb · 30-10-2015 4:08pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Pete Taylor? I don't know, massive respect for him for how he's helped Katie and what he's done in Bray, but he's not in Billy's league when it comes to heading a program or leading a team of international boxers so can't see any reason why the USA would target him. Plus, he can't and won't leave Katie so it's a non-starter on more than one level.

I don't know, you're asking so many questions, like they're designed to be statements, it's hard to know how to respond. It seems obvious the USA valued him because of his credentials, his record and they were keen to acquire his services - because it wasn't the first time they'd approached him - so that's all I have to go on. Their statement seems to copperfasten that, so beyond that, I can't answer you or offer any more compelling insight.

The Pete Taylor name was just thrown in,. Yes, I am asking questions and not being definite with much. I don't see any other way as regards this particular affair. It's dead in the water now anyway. The Oirechteas meeting is a nothing. Just people going through the motions. It will solve nothing.

Strazdas · 30-10-2015 4:13pm

walshb wrote: »

That's fair enough. No matter spin is put on it I think it's far too overplayed. 2020? We could all be dead by then.

I would point out that the opinions you're giving about Billy would be shared by about 1% or 2% of Irish sports fans going by the overwhelming reaction across a variety of mediums in the last ten days. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in a minority of 1% of course - debate and differences of opinion are healthy - but you'll not find many agreeing with you that Walsh's departure is of little consequence to Irish boxing.

Joe_ Public · 30-10-2015 4:21pm

walshb wrote: »

The Pete Taylor name was just thrown in,. Yes, I am asking questions and not being definite with much. I don't see any other way as regards this particular affair. It's dead in the water now anyway. The Oirechteas meeting is a nothing. Just people going through the motions. It will solve nothing.

The Oireachtas meeting was never going to achieve anything, most of us said as much before it, the same with any inquiry they might hold. A waste of time.

But although I've only skimmed the committee transcript so far, I have to say it makes for a fascinating read, and offers nuggets of information as to how the sports' system works in this country. It's probably too long for most people to have the time or the inclination, but very worthwhile if you're interested in informing yourself on how things work here.

walshb · 30-10-2015 5:22pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I would point out that the opinions you're giving about Billy would be shared by about 1% or 2% of Irish sports fans going by the overwhelming reaction across a variety of mediums in the last ten days. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in a minority of 1% of course - debate and differences of opinion are healthy - but you'll not find many agreeing with you that Walsh's departure is of little consequence to Irish boxing.

Yes, and of these perecentages there will be a large lot that are simply anti rules and regulations and anti organisation. Many who also are backing one man based off medals and success etc. The one man vs. the system brigade. Backing the underdog brigade etc. So, really, percentages of who supports who is a nonsense in these kinds of issues. I don't pay much attention to it.

Me: As I said, from what I know of it I reckon Billy was hard done by.

Strazdas · 30-10-2015 6:07pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and of these perecentages there will be a large lot that are simply anti rules and regulations and anti organisation. Many who also are backing one man based off medals and success etc. The one man vs. the system brigade. Backing the underdog brigade etc. So, really, percentages of who supports who is a nonsense in these kinds of issues. I don't pay much attention to it.

Me: As I said, from what I know of it I reckon Billy was hard done by.

It would be a lot easier to defend it if Walsh had been only moderately successful at his job. People might even be thinking "Perhaps the IABA have a point". A hugely successful coach being (apparently) forced out in a dispute over pay and autonomy is a public relations disaster for the sport though.

Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

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