Dublin Metro South vs Luas

punisher5112 · 26-03-2019 8:57pm

bk wrote: »

Well we certainly wouldn't want to be copying most of the US! Absolutely terrible public transport for the most part. Car is king, feck the environment, terrible, impersonal cities where you can't walk anywhere. All very depressing.

I meant the way the network of roads are but to obviously work better here and segregation of PT.

Everything is so slow here and takes too much time.

AndrewJRenko · 26-03-2019 9:06pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I use the Luas from various stops near Cabinteely and I'm pleased with today's decision. Closing the green line for frankly any length of time would have been unacceptable to me and tens of thousands of others and frankly unbearable to the roads of the south city and county.

Wait until you find all trams at Cabinteely are jam-packed with all the new folks at Cherrywood and we'll see how pleased you are.

Podge_irl · 26-03-2019 9:09pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Maybe, but as I've said part of the solution must be to improve PT services on all routes parallel too and reduce each catchment. I detest the political line 'we are where we are', but we are and the closure of the Green Line for any period, for any reason, would've been totally unacceptable.

It's going to happen eventually anyway though. And it will happen when the line is even busier now.

L1011 · 26-03-2019 11:50pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Maybe, but as I've said part of the solution must be to improve PT services on all routes parallel too and reduce each catchment. I detest the political line 'we are where we are', but we are and the closure of the Green Line for any period, for any reason, would've been totally unacceptable.

It wouldn't have been "the closure of the Green Line" for starters. Partial closures, possibly rolling station by station as work was done with the remainder of the services running - doesn't sound quite as scary as "closed" so that's why the anti groups never mentioned it.

ohographite · 27-03-2019 12:25am

How many places along the green line have homes under construction or almost under construction, as I know Dundrum, Laughanstown and Cherrywood have them, but are there other places too?

CatInABox · 27-03-2019 1:20am

ohographite wrote: »

How many places along the green line have homes under construction or almost under construction, as I know Dundrum, Laughanstown and Cherrywood have them, but are there other places too?

https://twitter.com/yimbydublin/status/1101621955936092165

Idbatterim · 27-03-2019 8:09am

That above image is way off. No mention of six hundred homes for old Dundrum shopping centre. 1500 on old Dundrum central mental home site and tons of other smaller schemes. If you were to believe that map , the amount of extra capacity the luas will get over the next few years, would soak it up easily!

CatInABox · 27-03-2019 9:19am

Idbatterim wrote: »

That above image is way off. No mention of six hundred homes for old Dundrum shopping centre. 1500 on old Dundrum central mental home site and tons of other smaller schemes. If you were to believe that map , the amount of extra capacity the luas will get over the next few years, would soak it up easily!

Yes, there's a few missed out, they admit that in another tweet, they just did a manual trawl through the various councils for applications, and if they didn't find it on there, then they didn't include it.

I've long maintained that the NTA's predictions surrounding the Green Line are hopelessly optimistic, and nothing has changed my opinion since. The report into the Green Line that they just released makes no mention of updating their models to take account of the fact that the law around building heights has changed, so I really can't see Green Line lasting until 2038, it's a ridiculous idea.

L1011 · 27-03-2019 9:25am

It's all OK, some incredibly argumentative guy on Twitter insisted that every single unit in Cherrywood and Sandyford will be rental and somehow only rented by people who can walk to work in those estates.

Cherrywood is intended to be majority sold to tenants, as it happens

Idbatterim · 27-03-2019 9:26am

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, there's a few missed out, they admit that in another tweet, they just did a manual trawl through the various councils for applications, and if they didn't find it on there, then they didn't include it.

I've long maintained that the NTA's predictions surrounding the Green Line are hopelessly optimistic, and nothing has changed my opinion since. The report into the Green Line that they just released makes no mention of updating their models to take account of the fact that the law around building heights has changed, so I really can't see Green Line lasting until 2038, it's a ridiculous idea.

Given the big enough increase luas capacity that is coming in 2021. I think that will do us until cherrywood is finished. It might even cope with that. What i think will be the difference , is you throw a metrolink at Charlemont, all of a sudden there are a major amount of new destinations, that is what will cripple it in my opinion and that is what? Ten years off ... there are a lot of factors, bray and northwest extension being big ones, but they have been kicked miles down the road!

punisher5112 · 27-03-2019 10:28am

Bus connects is another.

Buses will link the Luas that once went to the city but will no more.

vrusinov · 27-03-2019 1:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

It's all OK, some incredibly argumentative guy on Twitter insisted that every single unit in Cherrywood and Sandyford will be rental and somehow only rented by people who can walk to work in those estates.

Right, f**k those scum renters, they could all just walk to CC or to Dundrum for some services and shopping. Also they obviously don't deserve anything more than some contract agency work in Sandyford.

hmmm · 27-03-2019 1:38pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

That above image is way off. No mention of six hundred homes for old Dundrum shopping centre. 1500 on old Dundrum central mental home site and tons of other smaller schemes. If you were to believe that map , the amount of extra capacity the luas will get over the next few years, would soak it up easily!

True - I can think of several very large development areas hugely underestimated - any many already approved e.g. Clay Farm phase 2 with over a 1000 units. What gets me is that the planners are ploughing ahead with approving lots of new development along the Green line, as if the LUAS light rail is some form of magic capacity system which can soak up any volume of new commuters. Minister Murphy and Shane Ross need to let us know where Dublin's housing is now to be built, because the LUAS is banjaxed until 2040.

AndrewJRenko · 27-03-2019 2:00pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

That above image is way off. No mention of six hundred homes for old Dundrum shopping centre.

Is there any sound plan for the future of that site?

magicbastarder · 27-03-2019 11:25pm

MetroLink Plans Cancelled In Favour Of TDs Reelection

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/03/27/metrolink-plans-cancelled-in-favour-of-tds-reelection

Idbatterim · 27-03-2019 11:37pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

MetroLink Plans Cancelled In Favour Of TDs Reelection

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/03/27/metrolink-plans-cancelled-in-favour-of-tds-reelection

Bravo! That nails it!!!

OleRodrigo · 30-03-2019 11:58am

So excuse my naivety again, and it may have already been addressed, but whats wrong with an automated monorail system? Seems (on the face of it) to be the only solution for Dublin.

https://rail.bombardier.com/en/solutions-and-technologies/urban/monorail.html

L1011 · 30-03-2019 2:19pm

Everything.

Two main ones: It's incompatible with what we already have. Elevated railways require massive demolition to build.

AndrewJRenko · 31-03-2019 10:58am

OleRodrigo wrote: »

So excuse my naivety again, and it may have already been addressed, but whats wrong with an automated monorail system? Seems (on the face of it) to be the only solution for Dublin.

https://rail.bombardier.com/en/solutions-and-technologies/urban/monorail.html

Probably the greatest—Aw, it's not for you. It's more a Shelbyville idea.

noelfirl · 31-03-2019 11:28am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Probably the greatest—Aw, it's not for you. It's more a Shelbyville idea.

salmocab · 31-03-2019 12:05pm

noelfirl wrote: »

It sure put them on the map

ohographite · 29-04-2019 8:35pm

If and when the green line is upgraded to metro standard, will it involve clearing away all the hedgerows growing along the line? If so, would there be enough space to build a cycle path alongside the line in the space currently taken up by hedgerows?

Del.Monte · 29-04-2019 10:52pm

ohographite wrote: »

If and when the green line is upgraded to metro standard, will it involve clearing away all the hedgerows growing along the line? If so, would there be enough space to build a cycle path alongside the line in the space currently taken up by hedgerows?

No.

FileNotFound · 30-01-2021 1:42pm

L1011 wrote: »

Everything.

Two main ones: It's incompatible with what we already have. Elevated railways require massive demolition to build.

The plans that came to our house show underground stations.

Peregrine · 31-01-2021 2:49am

FileNotFound wrote: »

The plans that came to our house show underground stations.

You received plans for an underground monorail at your house?

dowlingm · 31-01-2021 3:40pm

What width of vehicles is Green Luas designed to take without additional structure widening work? The existing vehicles are 2.45m - I dimly recall discussion of GL being able to take 2.65m. Presumably the old Harcourt Line could go to something nearer 2.85m but that was without electrification or the deviations from the old route.

If 2.65m as much as can be done, a minimalist upgrade of GL could replace existing Citadis trams with Citadis Spirit in the same configuration as Ottawa - install longer but narrowed platforms, paired 2.65m trams, upgrade line voltage to 1500V. Wouldn’t be the same capacity bump as high floor but post Covid the desire to constrain public expenditure is likely to be back with a vengeance, and the Citadis Spirit has ATO and underground capability.

31-01-2021 4:18pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Wait until you find all trams at Cabinteely are jam-packed with all the new folks at Cherrywood and we'll see how pleased you are.

I also use the luas around cherrywood and prior to Lockdown in March it was starting to become unusuable. Sardine tin on the way home and very full in the morning. And thats before Cherrywood is completed.

31-01-2021 4:24pm

Peregrine wrote: »

You received plans for an underground monorail at your house?

My sister was hoping to go to trinity and was looking at places to rent. One place she was very excited about was *going* to be around carrickmines and would have a luas station in the basement. Then the crash came and nevermind that it didn't get completed it was never started. Not as much as one spadefull was turned on the site. She had a full brochure detailing all the wondrous amenities it would have. "Don't wait! Secure your deposit now".

Maybe thats what the poster is referring to.

Del.Monte · 31-01-2021 5:00pm

Much as I like the Green Luas line and prefer everything about it to the DART, it should have been built as a DART route all the way to Bray via the original alignment. Even if it had gone back into the original terminus at Harcourt Street it would have been a viable proposition with a Luas tram outside the station. The tram, perhaps, taking an alternative route into Rathmines etc. rather than the present route.

donvito99 · 31-01-2021 6:14pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Much as I like the Green Luas line and prefer everything about it to the DART, it should have been built as a DART route all the way to Bray via the original alignment. Even if it had gone back into the original terminus at Harcourt Street it would have been a viable proposition with a Luas tram outside the station. The tram, perhaps, taking an alternative route into Rathmines etc. rather than the present route.

Or even better, it should have dropped into a tunnel at the old Harcourt St station and reemerged at Broadstone - Bray to Maynooth.

But we panicked at the thought of spending a few hundred million punt in the 80s and now we're left with a dinky little tram that is (or was) at capacity a mere 15 years after it opened.

Zebra3 · 31-01-2021 6:26pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Or even better, it should have dropped into a tunnel at the old Harcourt St station and reemerged at Broadstone - Bray to Maynooth.

But we panicked at the thought of spending a few hundred million punt in the 80s and now we're left with a dinky little tram that is (or was) at capacity a mere 15 years after it opened.

Wasn't that the plan 100 years ago?

FileNotFound · 01-02-2021 12:48am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I also use the luas around cherrywood and prior to Lockdown in March it was starting to become unusuable. Sardine tin on the way home and very full in the morning. And thats before Cherrywood is completed.

When they finish those apts it will do well to cope with the load, I assume longer trams are limited by current station sizes.

Same happening with buses all over, as housing expands so do routes but not capacity

bk · 01-02-2021 12:34pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But we panicked at the thought of spending a few hundred million punt in the 80s and now we're left with a dinky little tram that is (or was) at capacity a mere 15 years after it opened.

Well those two dinky little tram lines carry almost as many passengers as the entire Irish Rail network!!

In 2019 the entire Irish Rail network (including intercity, commuter and DART) carried 50m passengers, while the two "dinky tram" lines carried 48 million!

That also means each tram line carries more passengers then DART, which is 20 million per year.

FileNotFound wrote: »

When they finish those apts it will do well to cope with the load, I assume longer trams are limited by current station sizes.

Same happening with buses all over, as housing expands so do routes but not capacity

Well longer, 55 meter Luas trams are currently being introduced, though that should be about as long as they can get. They are already the second longest trams in the world.

M50Jct15 · 04-02-2021 11:40pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Much as I like the Green Luas line and prefer everything about it to the DART, it should have been built as a DART route all the way to Bray via the original alignment.

The original alignment would be complete nonsense..taking the trams through very low-density housing and missing the huge developments along the Ballyogan Road.

The problem isn't the route, it's the capacity. It should be part of a metro.

GT89 · 05-02-2021 12:24am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Much as I like the Green Luas line and prefer everything about it to the DART, it should have been built as a DART route all the way to Bray via the original alignment. Even if it had gone back into the original terminus at Harcourt Street it would have been a viable proposition with a Luas tram outside the station. The tram, perhaps, taking an alternative route into Rathmines etc. rather than the present route.

Or better still not have closed the Harcourt St. Line in the first place

GT89 · 05-02-2021 12:30am

bk wrote: »

Well those two dinky little tram lines carry almost as many passengers as the entire Irish Rail network!!

In 2019 the entire Irish Rail network (including intercity, commuter and DART) carried 50m passengers, while the two "dinky tram" lines carried 48 million!

That also means each tram line carries more passengers then DART, which is 20 million per year.

More to do with the fact the Dart line serves current low density housing developments whereas both Luas travel though high density areas for almost the whole route.

bk · 05-02-2021 12:19pm

GT89 wrote: »

More to do with the fact the Dart line serves current low density housing developments whereas both Luas travel though high density areas for almost the whole route.

The DART line serves areas that are about the same density as the Luas. The issue is more that half of the DARTs catchment area is the sea.

My point more was to show how ridiculous it is to call Luas "a dinky tram", when it carries so many people, one of the longest, most frequent and highest capacity tram lines in the world, which carries almost as many passengers as the entire IR network and gets the highest customer satisfaction ratings.

Luas has been a wild success, if we had the road space to build another dozen Luas lines we would fix Dublins transport problems overnight.

timeToLive · 05-02-2021 1:12pm

WFH policies in the future help the Luas capacity issues

Del.Monte · 05-02-2021 1:45pm

timeToLive wrote: »

WFH policies in the future help the Luas capacity issues

Sorry?

bk · 05-02-2021 1:50pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Sorry?

WFH = Working From Home, basically the OP is saying, going forward there will be a lot more people working remotely and working from home, at least a couple days a week and that it will take some of the overcrowding strain off Luas.

It might do, at least in the short term, though I suspect it will be counter balanced by new housing.

salmocab · 05-02-2021 3:55pm

bk wrote: »

WFH = Working From Home, basically the OP is saying, going forward there will be a lot more people working remotely and working from home, at least a couple days a week and that it will take some of the overcrowding strain off Luas.

It might do, at least in the short term, though I suspect it will be counter balanced by new housing.

Yeah it might take the sting out in the short term but I don’t think WFH is going to be quite as widespread as some think.

05-02-2021 4:52pm

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah it might take the sting out in the short term but I don’t think WFH is going to be quite as widespread as some think.

Out of interest what do you work as? I'm in "tech" and while not everyone will be full-time a pretty massive amount will at least be part time WFH.

salmocab · 05-02-2021 4:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Out of interest what do you work as? I'm in "tech" and while not everyone will be full-time a pretty massive amount will at least be part time WFH.

I’m in facilities in a large MN bank and by the sounds of it most will be coming back full time with possibly some wiggle room in certain departments.

There is a tech firm in the next building and whilst they’ve been home since March they have actually taken extra space for when they return.

bk · 05-02-2021 5:37pm

salmocab wrote: »

I’m in facilities in a large MN bank and by the sounds of it most will be coming back full time with possibly some wiggle room in certain departments.

There is a tech firm in the next building and whilst they’ve been home since March they have actually taken extra space for when they return.

LOL, most of the big tech firms are looking to exit offices.

salmocab · 05-02-2021 5:50pm

bk wrote: »

LOL, most of the big tech firms are looking to exit offices.

I know, although did I read tik tok took extra space quite recently. Tech will certainly have lots WFH but I think lots in finance and other areas will have numbers back up when they can. Any help with reducing numbers travelling is to be welcomed I just don’t think it will be as big as some think. Some employers aren’t going to be comfortable with people sitting at home with access to things that are very confidential. Our traders sit in a way that other teams can’t see their screens, I don’t think the bank are too comfortable with them at home trading other people’s money and no idea who’s in the kitchen with them.

GT89 · 05-02-2021 6:40pm

bk wrote: »

The DART line serves areas that are about the same density as the Luas. The issue is more that half of the DARTs catchment area is the sea.

My point more was to show how ridiculous it is to call Luas "a dinky tram", when it carries so many people, one of the longest, most frequent and highest capacity tram lines in the world, which carries almost as many passengers as the entire IR network and gets the highest customer satisfaction ratings.

Luas has been a wild success, if we had the road space to build another dozen Luas lines we would fix Dublins transport problems overnight.

Not quite the stretch of Dart line South of Merrion Gates would be lower density than any of the Luas lines anyway large Georgian houses in Blackrock and Monkstown then a slight higher density from Dalkey to DL. Red line Luas is far higher density than either Dart or Green line. Highest density stretch on the DART would be Lansdowne Road to Howth Junction.

Also Luas stops are more easy to access than DART stations. But still a Metro would be preferable in my book. Sandyford to Swords should have been built as Metro from Day 1 imo would have saved a lot of hassle with closing the line and ties I and the like. But I guess we shouldn't cry over spilled milk.

vrusinov · 06-02-2021 2:48pm

bk wrote: »

LOL, most of the big tech firms are looking to exit offices.

Do you have examples? Most tech companies I'm aware of are still expanding office space.

I looked for around for new jobs in tech out of interest. Pretty much all interesting positions clearly say it's work from office post-covid, though more mention WFH for something like 1-3 days per week. I suspect we may see less demand for public transport into city on Mondays & Fridays but similar peaks on Tue-Thu.

Idbatterim · 06-02-2021 2:55pm

They cant even yive luas basic prioroty in the city centre, its a joke of a system given dublins scenario

hmmm · 06-02-2021 2:57pm

vrusinov wrote: »

I looked for around for new jobs in tech out of interest. Pretty much all interesting positions clearly say it's work from office post-covid, though more mention WFH for something like 1-3 days per week. I suspect we may see less demand for public transport into city on Mondays & Fridays but similar peaks on Tue-Thu.

Agree with this - most tech firms I know are looking at hybrid with on-site required for part of the week. However there is some interesting debate as to the point of this and whether they can find some other way to retain the big productivity gains a lot of firms have seen from remote work - they are looking at facilitating the social side of team-building (e.g. getting everyone together off-site), but allowing people do their actual work from anywhere. I know a number of smaller firms think offering remote work will be an important part of their ability to attract staff, and are planning for a remote-first future with an office only being used infrequently. I don't think this discussion is anywhere near finished, although I expect most workers are going to need to be within commuting distances of their offices.

We can't quite predict the future, but what is apparent is that there is some huge developments being planned along the Green line beyond Sandyford. Just look at the tower planned for Carrickmines, and the recent LAP has a future high-density area planned for near the race-course. And none of this makes any sense. We're packing thousands of people onto a very good light-rail system in the outer suburbs, and treating it as if it was heavy rail or a Metro. Our planners need to cop themselves on because they're living in la-la land at the moment.

By the time the Metro is built to Sandyford, we'll already need the Metro extending to Cherrywood in my opinion.

bk · 07-02-2021 1:29pm

vrusinov wrote: »

Do you have examples? Most tech companies I'm aware of are still expanding office space.

Pretty much every Fortune 50 tech company, including my own, is reducing office space significantly around the world.

Here is an example of Google in Dublin:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/google-s-withdrawal-from-dublin-office-deal-cast-doubts-on-sector-1.4348998

Of course I’m not saying all offices close and everyone works from home. I’d expect more of a hybrid model. Couple days a week at home, a couple in an office with flex desks.

Though some maybe full time remote, some companies (Twitter) are already allowing for this.

But this means less space needed, so where a company has multiple buildings in an office park or floors on a sky scraper, they may exit some, while keeping others.

It won’t happen overnight, these companies can often have long term rental contracts, like 10 to 20 years or own the building. So they can’t just exit straight away. It is more of a case that the won’t renew the lease when it comes up for a renewal or like the google example above, cancel a planned project before it goes ahead, as that costs nothing.

This will be a multi year change and will differ from company to company and position to position, but there are definitely big changes coming.

Dublin Metro South vs Luas

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