Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

manu2009 · 06-02-2018 10:46pm

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't want to get into the rest of the discussion, but on this point I can't help jumping in. No matter how you put it, it seems like a strange argument to say that something as volatile as bitcoin allows people to be "in full control of their personal finances". To feel in control people need to be able to plan at least to some extend and have some level confidence about the future value of their accumulated wealth.

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

lifeandtimes · 06-02-2018 10:49pm

jasper100 wrote: »

Can you explain how I am in control of my money if I have say $20K one month and $5K the next.

I happy enough with the way my money is controlled at the money. I have zero issues with it TBH.

Look at it this way.

When the first dollar was released you could trade them for a deer skin (where the name buck comes from)

During this time depending where you went one dollar could have got you 1 skin or 10 skins etc.

It's early days for the crypto market but once it's adopted (and it will be based on the ease, control and speed of it) the cost will level out and will be similar to the stock market and currency prices in they wont fluctuate too much.

At the moment yes it can go up and down by 75% but it's volatile at the moment because of the amount of people who dont know what they are doing jumping in and out.

Kinda like when the euro came in and no one knew how much it was worth and were trying to buy a 1 euro bottle of coke with a 10 euro note

drunkmonkey · 06-02-2018 10:50pm

jasper100 wrote: »

I don't get this either. Imagine deciding in December you can afford to buy a new car and then come January you only have enough bitcoin to buy something 8 years old.

manu2009 · 06-02-2018 10:56pm

jasper100 wrote: »

Can you explain how I am in control of my money if I have say $20K one month and $5K the next.

I happy enough with the way my money is controlled at the money. I have zero issues with it TBH.

jasper100 wrote: »

I don't get this either. Imagine deciding in December you can afford to buy a new car and then come January you only have enough bitcoin to buy something 8 years old.

If you are happy enough with the current centralized system then that's fair enough, cryptocurrency is not for you but it doesn't mean everyone else has to go along with it and use banks.

As I said already any new tech is going to be volatile initially and if you have that much invested and need a car you shouldn't put that money at risk.

jasper100 · 06-02-2018 10:58pm

manu2009 wrote: »

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

People in developing countries can, and do, buy dollars.

Bob24 · 06-02-2018 11:11pm

manu2009 wrote: »

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

I do see an interest in the technology, but I think what you are overlooking is that because there is no clearly defined institutional backer for a currency doesn't mean you (the currency holder) are more in control.

This is because you (as an individual) have no control over that decentralised currency (arguably even less than on a national currency which can to some extend be influenced by a government you take part in electing). This could simply be natural market forces or some large private interest groups which are able to influence the market for that decentralised currency to suit their interest, but there is nothing to guarantee the currency will put you (as an individual) in control of your finances. For exemple and in a pessimistic scenario, you could well see your savings wiped just before buying a home due to a massive loss of value of the decentralised currency and completely lose control over your finances (while others who expected the drop or even plotted to trigger it though strong financial or media influencing firepower would have stored their wealth in other ways you might no have access to before it happens and can then come back and wipe the floor with what's left of you and all those who thought their were in control). So no matter how good the technology is, it is not futile to also look at potential consequences of the philosophy behind it and in this case the ability or not to maintain some level of price stability.

Sleeper12 · 06-02-2018 11:16pm

lifeandtimes wrote:

When the first dollar was released you could trade them for a deer skin (where the name buck comes from)

lifeandtimes wrote:

During this time depending where you went one dollar could have got you 1 skin or 10 skins etc.

During this time the dollar was backed up by gold. Directly linked. In other words your dollar was worth a dollar from day one. The fact that you could buy a deer skin for a dollar was backed up by gold reserves. Bitcoin is backed up by nothing. Its real value is nothing. Everything else is speculation

lifeandtimes · 06-02-2018 11:29pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

During this time the dollar was backed up by gold. Directly linked. In other words your dollar was worth a dollar from day one. The fact that you could buy a deer skin for a dollar was backed up by gold reserves. Bitcoin is backed up by nothing. Its real value is nothing. Everything else is speculation

The history of the US Dollar

The currency of the United States can be traced back to 1690 before the birth of the country when the region was still a patchwork of colonies. The Massachusetts Bay Colony used paper notes to finance military expeditions. After the introduction of paper currency in Massachusetts, the other colonies quickly followed.

Various British imposed restrictions on the colonial paper currencies were in place until being outlawed. In 1775, when the colonists were preparing to go to war with the British, the Continental Congress introduced the Continental currency. However, the currency did not last long as there was insufficient financial backing and the notes were easily counterfeited.

Congress then chartered the first national bank in Philadelphia - the Bank of North America - to help with the government's finances. The dollar was chosen to become the monetary unit for the USA in 1785. The Coinage Act of 1792 helped put together an organised monetary system that introduced coinage in gold, silver, and copper. Paper notes or greenbacks were introduced into the system in 1861 to help finance the Civil War. The paper notes used several different techniques including a Treasury seal and engraved signatures to help diminish counterfeiting. In 1863, Congress put together the national banking system that granted the US Treasury permission to oversee the issuance of National Bank notes. This gave national banks the power to distribute money and to purchase US bonds more easily whilst still being regulated.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 created one central bank and organised a national banking system that could keep up with the changing financial needs of the country. The Federal Reserve Board created a new currency called the Federal Reserve Note. The first federal note was issued in the form of a ten dollar bill in 1914. Finally, a decision by the Federal Reserve board was made to lower the manufacturing costs of the currency by reducing the actual size of the notes by 30%. The same designs were also printed on all dominations instead of individual designs.

The designs of the notes would not be changed again until 1996 when a series of improvements were carried out over a ten-year period to prevent counterfeiting.

https://www.advfn.com/currencies/usd/about/USDollar.html

They weren't backed by gold back then, there was no gold reserve

Sleeper12 · 06-02-2018 11:40pm

lifeandtimes wrote:

The history of the US Dollar

lifeandtimes wrote:

The currency of the United States can be traced back to 1690 before the birth of the country when the region was still a patchwork of colonies. The Massachusetts Bay Colony used paper notes to finance military expeditions. After the introduction of paper currency in Massachusetts, the other colonies quickly followed.

Can I point out that there wasn't a United States at this point in time. Nor was there an American dollar.

lifeandtimes · 06-02-2018 11:45pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Can I point out that there wasn't a United States at this point in time. Nor was there an American dollar.

Regardless if the "imaginary land boarders" were in place or not the currency or legal tender was there and used as such without a backing by a financial institution or raw material.

Currency in the form of bitcoin has gone full circle

06-02-2018 11:46pm

This thread is gas. Keep it up 'concerned observers'. It's some craic watching most of you. Have to hand it to Kaymin, he's been in here debating before and is persistent at the least.

The rest who just popped in to have a stab when there was a crash - If you had have put a bit of money into the market over the weekend rather than a hape of bullshít into this thread, you'd already have seen far better returns for your time and effort.

Really, this is beautiful. I don't know what to F5 more - my portfolio or this thread.

lostboy75 · 06-02-2018 11:47pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

The history of the US Dollar

So in addition to no gold reserve it took roughly 85 years to mature. Bitcoin had existed for nine, and people say it hasn't gained traction, and so it's a failure.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 06-02-2018 11:52pm

I'm actually genuinely laughing out loud here at the delusion of some people here.

Totally dismissing the fact that Bitcoin and altcoins are useless as a currency purely from a volatility point of view.

Sleeper12 · 06-02-2018 11:53pm

lostboy75 wrote:

So in addition to no gold reserve it took roughly 85 years to mature. Bitcoin had existed for nine, and people say it hasn't gained traction, and so it's a failure.

There was no us dollar until there was a USA. The US Dollar was always backed by gold until recently.

makeorbrake · 06-02-2018 11:56pm

No matter....it's been backed by Jack for years now!

Shauny2010 · 06-02-2018 11:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is gas. Keep it up 'concerned observers'. It's some craic watching most of you. Have to hand it to Kaymin, he's been in here debating before and is persistent at the least.

The rest who just popped in to have a stab when there was a crash - If you had have put a bit of money into the market over the weekend rather than a hape of bullshít into this thread, you'd already have seen far better returns for your time and effort.

Really, this is beautiful. I don't know what to F5 more - my portfolio or this thread.

Brilliant!

grindle · 06-02-2018 11:58pm

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I'm actually genuinely laughing out loud here at the delusion of some people here.

Totally dismissing the fact that Bitcoin and altcoins are useless as a currency purely from a volatility point of view.

You seem to be genuinely confused and thinking that every one of the 1500+ currencies on CMC are aiming to be BTC-replacements?

Are you that out of your depth?

lifeandtimes · 06-02-2018 11:58pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There was no us dollar until there was a USA. The US Dollar was always backed by gold until recently.

Now you're splitting hairs though.

The dollar as we know today was made prior to creation of the United States of America but evolved over the course of history.

The point is a system of currency existed without a backing of gold.

This doesn't just apply to the dollar but to all currencys in history, like rome or during the middle ages

JohnnyFlash · 07-02-2018 12:11am

People with the same opinion as Pintman: Nobel prize winning economists, senior Management in most of the world’s leading financial institutions, and Warren Buffett.

People who disagree: dudes on Reddit and here going on about moon shots, hodl, imaginary partnerships, Utility coins, the Chinese New Year, Wall Street bonuses, lambo.

It’s all going to end in tears.

Shauny2010 · 07-02-2018 12:12am

At the end of the day this was another crash to add to the ever growing list of Bitcoin obituaries.
As the list grows, so does the anger of those who are willing it to fail. It really is a remarkable technology after all, nothing seems to kill it and what doesn't kill it always makes it stronger.
I can see a lot of the angry peeps here puking their guts out later on this year as Bitcoin retests the all time highs.

JohnnyFlash · 07-02-2018 12:15am

Shauny2010 wrote: »

At the end of the day this was another crash to add to the ever growing list of Bitcoin obituaries.
As the list grows, so does the anger of those who are willing it to fail. It really is a remarkable technology after all, nothing seems to kill it and what doesn't kill it always makes it stronger.
I can see a lot of the angry peeps here puking their guts out later on this year as Bitcoin retests the all time highs.

What price have you bought in at?

Sleeper12 · 07-02-2018 12:18am

lifeandtimes wrote:

Now you're splitting hairs though.

No I'm not. Someone posted the history of the US Dollar & it was totally wrong. The US Dollar only came into existence when the US came into existence. Before that you had the British colonies. Any currency was backed by the Crown.

I'm not even saying that bitcoin is terrible. I've said many times before that there is still big money to be made on it (& lost). I'm just warning people that it has no real value right now. It can't even be used as currency as the fluctuations are so great. Right now investing in this is speculation. I did it with bank shares 10 years ago so I'm not against it. But people should look at it as gambling rather than investment for the moment.

I haven't bashed the currency. I don't wish it'll collapse. I don't want everyone to loose money so I can say told you so. All I'm trying to say is to be careful.

rapul · 07-02-2018 12:20am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I'm actually genuinely laughing out loud here at the delusion of some people here.

Totally dismissing the fact that Bitcoin and altcoins are useless as a currency purely from a volatility point of view.

And you are aware we are all laughing at you because were making money off these useless currencies? This thread is a sham and you are all just sad at this stage ,I'm up a few grand today alone ,having a nice few drinks 2nite cheers fools!

Pintman Paddy Losty · 07-02-2018 12:24am

rapul wrote: »

And you are aware we are all laughing at you because were making money off these useless currencies? This thread is a sham and you are all just sad at this stage ,I'm up a few grand today alone ,having a nice few drinks 2nite cheers fools!

No one is saying there isn't money to be made in volatile pyramid schemes amigo. It's just delusional to see it as anything but a massive ponzi scheme.

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 12:27am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

People with the same opinion as Pintman: Nobel prize winning economists, senior Management in most of the world’s leading financial institutions, and Warren Buffett.

People who disagree: dudes on Reddit and here going on about moon shots, hodl, imaginary partnerships, Utility coins, the Chinese New Year, Wall Street bonuses, lambo.

It’s all going to end in tears.

Your apathy and disdain is what is hilarious, do you actually work for a bank?

People have been trying to create an electronic cash system since the 90s.

The cypherpunks tried to grow it based on cryptography and it was due to wanting privacy, earliest known was digi cash and by David chaum.

Everyone wants privacy and to be anonymous and not because they want to use it for "kiddie porn" and the "black market" as someone said earlier but because people want to be able to do things like be informed and to buy what they want without having someone look over your shoulder

Everyone you reference have no experience in a movement like this, it's new and revoluntionary.

rapul · 07-02-2018 12:29am

Come back in a few years when were all miles ahead financially because we saw the great work some of these projects have going and still will bring in the future ,once again your all just clearly sore loosers and want to vent ,this fine bottle of Jameson tastes very good gents

Pintman Paddy Losty · 07-02-2018 12:29am

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Your apathy and disdain is what is hilarious, do you actually work for a bank?

People have been trying to create an electronic cash system since the 90s.

The cypherpunks tried to grow it based on cryptography and it was due to wanting privacy, earliest known was digi cash and by David chaum.

Everyone wants privacy and to be anonymous and not because they want to use it for "kiddie porn" and the "black market" as someone said earlier but because people want to be able to do things like be informed and to buy what they want without having someone look over your shoulder

Everyone you reference have no experience in a movement like this, it's new and revoluntionary.

This time it's different.

rapul · 07-02-2018 12:31am

You can't say that ,you know nothing really when it comes down to it

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 12:31am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

No one is saying there isn't money to be made in volatile pyramid schemes amigo. It's just delusional to see it as anything but a massive ponzi scheme.

It's not a pyramid or ponzi scheme .

You don't put your money in to give the people who create bitcoin or ethereum at the top cash and them they trickle down to the lower people.

You put your money in and if it goes up you benifit and can cash out when you want and if it goes down you can cash out when you want.

Early investers benifit most yes but that's the same everywhere.

I'm actually getting fed up arguing here. It's like beating your head against a wall.

The people here are just loving to spread to FUD and are getting a kick out of it

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 12:32am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

This time it's different.

No...its a different time!

JohnnyFlash · 07-02-2018 12:34am

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Your apathy and disdain is what is hilarious, do you actually work for a bank?

People have been trying to create an electronic cash system since the 90s.

The cypherpunks tried to grow it based on cryptography and it was due to wanting privacy, earliest known was digi cash and by David chaum.

Everyone wants privacy and to be anonymous and not because they want to use it for "kiddie porn" and the "black market" as someone said earlier but because people want to be able to do things like be informed and to buy what they want without having someone look over your shoulder

Everyone you reference have no experience in a movement like this, it's new and revoluntionary.

Bitcoin is terrible for privacy.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#is-bitcoin-anonymous

Bitcoin is designed to allow its users to send and receive payments with an acceptable level of privacy as well as any other form of money. However, Bitcoin is not anonymous and cannot offer the same level of privacy as cash.

rapul · 07-02-2018 12:34am

@lifeandtimes ,it's so sad really your bang on ,no talking to them ,the sky is blue no it's not, the grass is green no it's not. They all apparently seem to have a huge insight into all this that we don't somehow ,it's truly laughable how narrow minded they all are

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 12:37am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Bitcoin is terrible for privacy.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#is-bitcoin-anonymous

Bitcoin is designed to allow its users to send and receive payments with an acceptable level of privacy as well as any other form of money. However, Bitcoin is not anonymous and cannot offer the same level of privacy as cash.

Bitcoin is annon, you get a wallet address and that's it.

But you try and buy some Japanese camera in japan with just cash. Good luck with your flights, accommodation, yen exchange fees and spending money.

Where as I'll buy a camera directly through crypto just for the price it is.

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 12:41am

rapul wrote: »

@lifeandtimes ,it's so sad really your bang on ,no talking to them ,the sky is blue no it's not, the grass is green no it's not. They all apparently seem to have a huge insight into all this that we don't somehow ,it's truly laughable how narrow minded they all are

I know, they were trying to tell us they were trying to help us but really it's just to annoy us.

However they have their faith in fiat and if the government ever fuc up like Zimbabwe did they'll have not to fall back on...unlike us

JohnnyFlash · 07-02-2018 12:45am

The best measure of any bubble is absurdity.

If the last few posts are anything to go by then it’s going to pop.

sabat · 07-02-2018 12:45am

Shauny2010 wrote: »

At the end of the day this was another crash to add to the ever growing list of Bitcoin obituaries.
As the list grows, so does the anger of those who are willing it to fail. It really is a remarkable technology after all, nothing seems to kill it and what doesn't kill it always makes it stronger.
I can see a lot of the angry peeps here puking their guts out later on this year as Bitcoin retests the all time highs.

Hundreds of billions in real money has been lost this time. That's just not coming back.

GreeBo · 07-02-2018 12:46am

I really wish everyone would just add a couple of people to their ignore list so this thread can stop going around in circles.

lostboy75 · 07-02-2018 12:49am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

No one is saying there isn't money to be made in volatile pyramid schemes amigo. It's just delusional to see it as anything but a massive ponzi scheme.

So the CFTC and SEC hearings that (for now at least) are coming out broadly supportive of crypto and blockchain technology doesn't dent your ponzi, ponzi, ponzi narrative even a little?

07-02-2018 12:50am

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Where as I'll buy a camera directly through crypto just for the price it is.

Have you actually bought anything with it?

lostboy75 · 07-02-2018 12:54am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you actually bought anything with it?

I bought a pizza once for 10,000 BTC
In hind sight that may have been a bad idea, but it was tasty at the time

Shauny2010 · 07-02-2018 12:56am

sabat wrote: »

Hundreds of billions in real money has been lost this time. That's just not coming back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPD5q6DC43M

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
It didn't take hundreds of billions to reduce the price it just took the weak holders to sell.
cmc does not give a true reflection of market caps
Its already drifting back up.

07-02-2018 12:57am

lostboy75 wrote: »

I bought a pizza once for 10,000 BTC
In hind sight that may have been a bad idea, but it was tasty at the time

Something tells me you're not being serious..
But I was genuinely interested as to whether anyone here has used any of it as an actual currency..

lostboy75 · 07-02-2018 1:03am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Something tells me you're not being serious..
But I was genuinely interested as to whether anyone here has used any of it as an actual currency..

That was referencing the very first BTC transaction. there are rumours it wasn't by me. I don't knew for certain though.
And as an actual answer, no I have never bought anything directly with any crypto.
It is possible, but my beliefs are, it's still in it's infancy, it will take more time to grow and stabilise. That will help sort out the fluctuations to some degree

worded · 07-02-2018 1:05am

Crypto N00b

Just opened a www.coinbase.com account and thinking of buying ...

Tonight or tomorrow or soon ....

Anyone any advice? (aside from gamble what you can afford to loose?)

Buy all bitcoin or mix it up with Ethereum ?

BizWiz66 · 07-02-2018 1:08am

I actually just bought some products last week with Bitcoins from this Irish company, they accept Bitcoins

:D:D https://www.evolutionisland.com/ , no sure how many others do though, not many yet I guess.

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 1:08am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you actually bought anything with it?

I bought a football jersey for an American "soccer" team who are sponsored by an altcoin I'm invested in just today. They advertise our logo on their shirt so I felt i couldn't pass up the opportunity.

But yes I buy things online,legal things like products in different countries and home grown places like marvin.ie.

I actually cant wait for the crypto coffee shop in aungier street to open up

Pintman Paddy Losty · 07-02-2018 1:53am

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I bought a football jersey for an American "soccer" team who are sponsored by an altcoin I'm invested in just today. They advertise our logo on their shirt so I felt i couldn't pass up the opportunity.

But yes I buy things online,legal things like products in different countries and home grown places like marvin.ie.

I actually cant wait for the crypto coffee shop in aungier street to open up

So you bought a soccer jersey yesterday...let's say you paid 50 spoofcoins for it...which yesterday cost 50 euros... does it not concern you that a month ago those same 50 spoofcoins would have bought you 4 jerseys and a month from now they will buy you jack ****?

lifeandtimes · 07-02-2018 1:58am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

So you bought a soccer jersey yesterday...let's say you paid 50 spoofcoins for it...which yesterday cost 50 euros... does it not concern you that a month ago those same 50 spoofcoins would have bought you 4 jerseys and a month from now they will buy you jack ****?

No

If I go to an off license in Ireland I can get 8 cans of bulmers for 12 quid.

In Spain I can get the same for 6 quid

All the while your comments will still be worth b0ll0x

makeorbrake · 07-02-2018 2:06am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

So you bought a soccer jersey yesterday...let's say you paid 50 spoofcoins for it...which yesterday cost 50 euros... does it not concern you that a month ago those same 50 spoofcoins would have bought you 4 jerseys and a month from now they will buy you jack ****?

When the internet was in it's infancy, did you go around telling everyone, this internet thing is b0ll0x - it's slow, there's nothing practical you can do with it - yet all these fools are going round saying it's the future?....because that's the analogy of what you're doing here.

Has there been speculation - and fickle speculation - yes there has. Cryptocurrency didn't invent speculation. It's a distraction from the actual technology.

Did BTC function as a transactional currency up until recently - yes it did until it hit a scaling issue. Are there developers working on addressing that? Yes there are. Did the internet have the same scaling issue - yes it did.

You also complain about volatility. Of course - it's a problem right now. Will that always be the case - IF cryptocurrency sticks around - over time, that will be less pronounced.

All of you guys are saying it's rubbish - and won't consider the fact that it's an innovative work in progress.

sabat · 07-02-2018 2:13am

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
It didn't take hundreds of billions to reduce the price it just took the weak holders to sell.
cmc does not give a true reflection of market caps
Its already drifting back up.

OK then, how much has been lost by the newest investors across all crypto currencies since the peak? How much of that was borrowed? How much of that was stolen/misappropriated in order to gamble? To what degree was the price manipulated by tether?

Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

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