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GMC Hearing, Freeman and Sutton.

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    #32
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Dr Richard Freeman found guilty of ordering banned testosterone for unnamed cyclist

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/12/dr-richard-freeman-found-guilty-of-ordering-banned-testosterone-for-unnamed-rider


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    #33
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    finally an outcome.

    Now what happens to him, British Cycling and Ineos?


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    #34
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,522 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    The unnamed cyclist may not have been British

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it


    :pac:

    Presumably though Ineos are clear as it happened in the Sky days

    The fact BC employed a doctor who has been found guilty of this should certainly cause some ructions. Given BC has different leadership now it may be easier to get some proper answers from them


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    #35
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    godtabh wrote: »
    finally an outcome.

    Now what happens to him, British Cycling and Ineos?

    It'll blow over. Most outside of cycling are just not bothered. They're like, cycling+doping=zzzzzzz... Those inside will prepare fantastic statements about how all of this happened in THE PAST (!!!!) so it basically doesn't count and aren't we lucky that we have a great clean sport now. FFS. A joke. Meanwhile, rugby, soccer, US football, baseball..... Huge money and see little scrutiny. Lip service is paid to doping by almost all sports other than athletics and cycling.


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    #36
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    A bomb has just gone off in British cycling and UK sport in general. This is huge news and will not be going away anytime soon. A doctor employed by, in effect, a publicly funded institution, knowingly ordered testosterone to dope a rider in his care. UKAD will investigate and legal proceedings may begin shortly — the GMC ruling has no legal/criminal consequence.

    Shane Sutton quick to emerge and defend himself and Brailsford... that they knew nothing of the Testogel order. Silence from Brailsford at the moment.


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    #37
    dastardly00
    Registered Users Posts: 13,319 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    Richard Freeman has given his first interview since being found guilty at the GMC tribunal.

    He is maintaining his 'innocence' in that he didn't order the testosterone for a rider, and that he has never been involved in doping. Given that he has previously lied to UK Anti-Doping about the purchase, and all the crazy stuff about inadequate medical records, its hard to put much faith in what he is saying.

    Some quotes:
    "It's so disappointing. It's unbelievable. I have never doped a rider in my life. I'm still to see any evidence of who this rider supposedly was. I accept there are people who don't believe me. They will say I've lied and changed my story and can't trust anything I say. I've admitted to those lies."

    "And, yes, I deserved the GMC tribunal. But I can say with a clear conscience that I didn't order Testogel knowing or believing it was for cheating. I'm still shocked at this verdict. I've made plenty of mistakes but I'm not a doping doctor."


    His interview is with the Mail on Sunday. I've taken the quotes from this CyclingNews article - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-ive-made-plenty-of-mistakes-but-im-not-a-doping-doctor/


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    #38
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    He has no choice but to keep up the lies. If suddenly comes clean now, what would that mean for everyone else in British Cycling and Team Sky who has sung from the same hymn sheet? Well, I think we know what that means.

    I see there is more about Froome and his numbers with Shane Sutton expressing his doubts to Brailsford.


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    #39
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    Surely if team sky and their results had any shred of credibility left (they didnt for me) it is gone now.
    Wiggins should hand back his tdf 'victory' because it counts for absolutely zero now.
    Froome should do the same with his 4.
    Another low reached by a sport that specialises in it like no other.


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    #40
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    Itziger wrote: »
    It'll blow over. Most outside of cycling are just not bothered. They're like, cycling+doping=zzzzzzz... Those inside will prepare fantastic statements about how all of this happened in THE PAST (!!!!) so it basically doesn't count and aren't we lucky that we have a great clean sport now. FFS. A joke. Meanwhile, rugby, soccer, US football, baseball..... Huge money and see little scrutiny. Lip service is paid to doping by almost all sports other than athletics and cycling.

    Thats just classic whataboutery tho. Look after your own house.
    Cycling has no other sport to blame for its complete lack of credibility.
    What other sports do or dont do is not relevant.
    Cycling has reached a stage were literally no result can be taken at face value. Thats utterly astonishing and its brought it on itself entirely.


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    #41
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    nsnoefc1878 wrote: »
    Thats just classic whataboutery tho. Look after your own house.
    Cycling has no other sport to blame for its complete lack of credibility.
    What other sports do or dont do is not relevant.
    Cycling has reached a stage were literally no result can be taken at face value. Thats utterly astonishing and its brought it on itself entirely.

    Well, I did include "FFS, what a joke" and I tend to agree with your sentiments otherwise.

    Funny thing is, I still enjoy cycling, even with my scepticism.


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    #42
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,289 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    All pro sport is the same, so call it "whataboutery" if you like, but don't test don't find still remains true.


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    #43
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    All pro sport is the same, so call it "whataboutery" if you like, but don't test don't find still remains true.

    It is whataboutery, the very definition of it.
    and serves absolutely no purpose.


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    #44
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,289 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    That's grand, I'll stop watching cycling, and go and watch which clean pro sport? Which would you suggest?


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    #45
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    That's grand, I'll stop watching cycling, and go and watch which clean pro sport? Which would you suggest?
    What an odd, childish response.


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    #46
    griffin100
    Registered Users Posts: 4,774 ✭✭✭griffin100


    https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/team-skys-zero-tolerance-policy-was-a-total-joke-says-former-rider/

    I’d say JTL has been waiting for a while to get that off his chest.

    Brailsford might have to hand back his knighthood for doping reasons :)


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    #47
    dublin49
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭dublin49


    Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect that drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.


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    #48
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    dublin49 wrote: »
    Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect the drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.

    For me it boils down to money in the modern game. Sure, 50 years ago soccer and rugby probably had next to nothing in the way of drugs - unlike cycling, but nowadays??

    If you're earning 50,000 a week (or 20) and you're in danger of losing your place on the team or even squad to some sprightly young speedster, the temptation to take a few grams must be massive. That's not even getting into the fight against other teams! As for skill..... skill ain't much use if your opponent is beating you to every ball and continues to do so with ease as the game progresses.

    Then as the season progresses, the extra training that the doping allows you to put in begins to pay off. So I don't buy the skills thing tbh. If a certain 40 year old tennis star can't reach the ball in the 3rd or 5th set all the skills in the world won't help him. Allegedly.


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    #49
    griffin100
    Registered Users Posts: 4,774 ✭✭✭griffin100


    dublin49 wrote: »
    Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect that drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.

    Drugs are rife in every sport. Tennis and soccer are no exception, look at Spain and what operation Puerto is rumoured to have found. It’s also not that long ago since top level footballers engaged in analogous blood doping, banking blood and reinfusing, long after it became banned in cycling. GAA is no exception either, we just like to think it is.

    I remember reading about a chemist who I think was based in South America. His expertise was in making slight modifications to drugs every time a test had been developed for one so that his new formulae would beat the tests. I remember him saying that he had clients in every sport, even archery where drugs were used to minimise hand tremors.


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    #50
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Two questions

    Who do you think the Testogel was intended for ? And who doesn't necessarily have to be a single person

    And assuming abuse is rife in rugby why do you think so little of it makes main stream media ? As an example David Walsh covers rugby and cycling among other sports. All his Sunday Times cycling articles are about doping where as I've never seen it mentioned in his rugby articles.


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    #51
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Two questions

    Who do you think the Testogel was intended for ? And who doesn't necessarily have to be a single person

    And assuming abuse is rife in rugby why do you think so little of it makes main stream media ? As an example David Walsh covers rugby and cycling among other sports. All his Sunday Times cycling articles are about doping where as I've never seen it mentioned in his rugby articles.

    Just google French Rugby doping, it is published in mainstream media but most don't want too know with former international players getting shunned for pointing it out, plenty of Amateurs getting popped here for a sport with little testing at that level. I could give anecdotes but when a 115kg person, 2m tall can make a competitive athletic sprint that most sprinters would be happy with mid game while holding a ball, well, it is what iit is. We have had our own players with unusual high testosterone and so on. Personally I like Rugby but I don't pretend it doesn't happen.


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    #52
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Just google French Rugby doping, it is published in mainstream media but most don't want too know with former international players getting shunned for pointing it out, plenty of Amateurs getting popped here for a sport with little testing at that level. I could give anecdotes but when a 115kg person, 2m tall can make a competitive athletic sprint that most sprinters would be happy with mid game while holding a ball, well, it is what iit is. We have had our own players with unusual high testosterone and so on. Personally I like Rugby but I don't pretend it doesn't happen.

    My thoughts exactly. Yet so many people who give out yards about doping in cycling, disgust at the sport, threatening to not watch it etc. will happily sit glued to the TV when the 6 nations is on. And there won't be a peep out of them. I don't get this... cycling like rugby is what it is,. Why don't they just focus on the great racing the same way they do on the good rugby


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    #53
    dublin49
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭dublin49


    harringtonp wrote: »
    My thoughts exactly. Yet so many people who give out yards about doping in cycling, disgust at the sport, threatening to not watch it etc. will happily sit glued to the TV when the 6 nations is on. And there won't be a peep out of them. I don't get this... cycling like rugby is what it is,. Why don't they just focus on the great racing the same way they do on the good rugby

    I suppose for cycling theres the underlying fear the also rans are winning major prizes by doping.I have read Armstrong was an average climber at best early in his career and later was dropping the best colombians for fun.Not sure if this is true


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    #54
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    griffin100 wrote: »
    Drugs are rife in every sport. Tennis and soccer are no exception, look at Spain and what operation Puerto is rumoured to have found. It’s also not that long ago since top level footballers engaged in analogous blood doping, banking blood and reinfusing, long after it became banned in cycling. GAA is no exception either, we just like to think it is.

    I remember reading about a chemist who I think was based in South America. His expertise was in making slight modifications to drugs every time a test had been developed for one so that his new formulae would beat the tests. I remember him saying that he had clients in every sport, even archery where drugs were used to minimise hand tremors.

    Nobody doubts it's in all sports with money being the driver, but the fact remains that the evidence is there for it in cycling like no other sport. Now you can argue that cycling does more itself to fight it than other sports, and that argument might hold water the last 5 to 10 years at best. But most if not all of the big exposes in cycling have come from the efforts of those outside the sport or on the fringes of it, or disgruntled ex athletes. It's only very recently that the sport itself can take any credit for it.


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    #55
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.


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    #56
    nsnoefc1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭nsnoefc1878


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.

    Totally agree with your sentiments, I've never been a very talented athlete, I'm a decent cyclist at sportive level, climb well and could probably at the very least not embarass myself at the lower levels of racing . The thing I've always prided myself on in life is my principles, I'm as honest as the day is long and just would never ever contemplate cheating. That's why it bothers me so much. I'm also a huge believer in innocent until proven guilty, so while we can argue all day the whys of it, the fact is that there is probably no other sport with the level of incontrovertible evidence against it like cycling has.


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    #57
    griffin100
    Registered Users Posts: 4,774 ✭✭✭griffin100


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.

    Couldn’t agree more with this. My son is 16 and is active in GAA and Rugby and he’ll tell me what he hears from the older lads re. what ‘supplements’ to take. Up until recently he was a swimmer at a decent level and I spent all my time carting him to galas. I’ve seen parents giving 12 year olds caffeine suppositories to take before important swims. If that’s what’s happening at that age surely it’s a slippery slope.


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    #58
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,518 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    dublin49 wrote: »
    I suppose for cycling theres the underlying fear the also rans are winning major prizes by doping.I have read Armstrong was an average climber at best early in his career and later was dropping the best colombians for fun.Not sure if this is true

    It's pretty true. He looked like a good classics rider bit no one was talking about him taking on the TdF and Ullrich the same. Pantani was the only one looked the part and could have been a GT man drug free (but was also full of drugs)

    As for other sports I never trusted this Barca side and let's not forget that Fuentes offered the court names of World Cup winning Soccer players and Olympic athletes that he doped and was told to shut up by the Spanish court as "the case was only about cycling". They found a load of blood bags with code names and he offered all the real names and they said no


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    #59
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    nsnoefc1878 wrote: »
    Nobody doubts it's in all sports with money being the driver, but the fact remains that the evidence is there for it in cycling like no other sport. Now you can argue that cycling does more itself to fight it than other sports, and that argument might hold water the last 5 to 10 years at best. But most if not all of the big exposes in cycling have come from the efforts of those outside the sport or on the fringes of it, or disgruntled ex athletes. It's only very recently that the sport itself can take any credit for it.

    The irony is that for all the bad press it gets, it's made way more of an effort (in recent years as you say) than many other sports

    I would think that doping is so endemic in the likes of rugby or power lifting that the main ethos in those sports is all about keeping it under the carpet. And anyone who digs or questions is quickly shunned. If someone were to write a speculative article about doping in these sports they would never get another interview from the sport again.

    To twist it all around, the problem with cycling (from the perspective of dopers) is that there are too many clean cyclists who feel cheated by those who dope and are more than happy to spill the beans to journalists. This scenario does not happen in sports where doping is endemic. There you just have silence.


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    #60
    dublin49
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭dublin49


    harringtonp wrote: »
    The irony is that for all the bad press it gets, it's made way more of an effort (in recent years as you say) than many other sports

    I would think that doping is so endemic in the likes of rugby or power lifting that the main ethos in those sports is all about keeping it under the carpet. And anyone who digs or questions is quickly shunned. If someone were to write a speculative article about doping in these sports they would never get another interview from the sport again.

    To twist it all around, the problem with cycling (from the perspective of dopers) is that there are too many clean cyclists who feel cheated by those who dope and are more than happy to spill the beans to journalists. This scenario does not happen in sports where doping is endemic. There you just have silence.

    I read a long piece a few years ago from Der Spiegel by a coach who seemed very convincing that nobody can win a track medal at the olympics without doping as advantage gained is so great in disciplines where the margins of success and failure are so small.


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    #61
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,289 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Football has become far more aerobically based than it used to be. The high press, tippy tappy etc. Just because they're skilful doesn't mean there aren't benefits of the same drugs. Additionally, much of the doping in the past in cycling has been to aid recovery - two games a week over an entire season? And rotation of teams is less now than it was in the 90's.

    Rugby dominated by the collision now.

    And all with far more potential financial gains than cycling.

    Anyway, I'm happy that cycling does what it does to try to address issues, and cycling fans raise far more eyebrows than most other sports. But I personally won't take lectures or accept cycling as an outlier.


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