GMC Hearing, Freeman and Sutton.

harringtonp

CramCycle wrote: »

Just google French Rugby doping, it is published in mainstream media but most don't want too know with former international players getting shunned for pointing it out, plenty of Amateurs getting popped here for a sport with little testing at that level. I could give anecdotes but when a 115kg person, 2m tall can make a competitive athletic sprint that most sprinters would be happy with mid game while holding a ball, well, it is what iit is. We have had our own players with unusual high testosterone and so on. Personally I like Rugby but I don't pretend it doesn't happen.

My thoughts exactly. Yet so many people who give out yards about doping in cycling, disgust at the sport, threatening to not watch it etc. will happily sit glued to the TV when the 6 nations is on. And there won't be a peep out of them. I don't get this... cycling like rugby is what it is,. Why don't they just focus on the great racing the same way they do on the good rugby

dublin49

harringtonp wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. Yet so many people who give out yards about doping in cycling, disgust at the sport, threatening to not watch it etc. will happily sit glued to the TV when the 6 nations is on. And there won't be a peep out of them. I don't get this... cycling like rugby is what it is,. Why don't they just focus on the great racing the same way they do on the good rugby

I suppose for cycling theres the underlying fear the also rans are winning major prizes by doping.I have read Armstrong was an average climber at best early in his career and later was dropping the best colombians for fun.Not sure if this is true

nsnoefc1878

griffin100 wrote: »

Drugs are rife in every sport. Tennis and soccer are no exception, look at Spain and what operation Puerto is rumoured to have found. It’s also not that long ago since top level footballers engaged in analogous blood doping, banking blood and reinfusing, long after it became banned in cycling. GAA is no exception either, we just like to think it is.

I remember reading about a chemist who I think was based in South America. His expertise was in making slight modifications to drugs every time a test had been developed for one so that his new formulae would beat the tests. I remember him saying that he had clients in every sport, even archery where drugs were used to minimise hand tremors.

Nobody doubts it's in all sports with money being the driver, but the fact remains that the evidence is there for it in cycling like no other sport. Now you can argue that cycling does more itself to fight it than other sports, and that argument might hold water the last 5 to 10 years at best. But most if not all of the big exposes in cycling have come from the efforts of those outside the sport or on the fringes of it, or disgruntled ex athletes. It's only very recently that the sport itself can take any credit for it.

CramCycle

I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.

nsnoefc1878

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.

Totally agree with your sentiments, I've never been a very talented athlete, I'm a decent cyclist at sportive level, climb well and could probably at the very least not embarass myself at the lower levels of racing . The thing I've always prided myself on in life is my principles, I'm as honest as the day is long and just would never ever contemplate cheating. That's why it bothers me so much. I'm also a huge believer in innocent until proven guilty, so while we can argue all day the whys of it, the fact is that there is probably no other sport with the level of incontrovertible evidence against it like cycling has.

griffin100

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't like doping in cycling but when I watch pro races, I don't think about it. I talked to riders, masseurs and people helping out at pro conti races years ago and they said the stuff was everywhere. A friend of mine heard Tramadol being called for over the race radio over in the UK. It really bugs me at amateur level. That lad sucking an inhaler like a lollipop in A4 in Wexford galls me, the recent masters racer, the lad from Bikeworx and so on. I am not stupid, I have seen it at GAA and amateur rugby but I was never an active competitor so no one stole from me in those but it happening in A3 and A4 races just f*cking disgusts me. I don't mind losing, any cyclist who can't accept losing is going to have a tough life but losing because I am not the better rider is palatable, losing to someone who didn't think they could cut it from the start, well that is just sh1t.

Couldn’t agree more with this. My son is 16 and is active in GAA and Rugby and he’ll tell me what he hears from the older lads re. what ‘supplements’ to take. Up until recently he was a swimmer at a decent level and I spent all my time carting him to galas. I’ve seen parents giving 12 year olds caffeine suppositories to take before important swims. If that’s what’s happening at that age surely it’s a slippery slope.

breezy1985

dublin49 wrote: »

I suppose for cycling theres the underlying fear the also rans are winning major prizes by doping.I have read Armstrong was an average climber at best early in his career and later was dropping the best colombians for fun.Not sure if this is true

It's pretty true. He looked like a good classics rider bit no one was talking about him taking on the TdF and Ullrich the same. Pantani was the only one looked the part and could have been a GT man drug free (but was also full of drugs)

As for other sports I never trusted this Barca side and let's not forget that Fuentes offered the court names of World Cup winning Soccer players and Olympic athletes that he doped and was told to shut up by the Spanish court as "the case was only about cycling". They found a load of blood bags with code names and he offered all the real names and they said no

harringtonp

nsnoefc1878 wrote: »

Nobody doubts it's in all sports with money being the driver, but the fact remains that the evidence is there for it in cycling like no other sport. Now you can argue that cycling does more itself to fight it than other sports, and that argument might hold water the last 5 to 10 years at best. But most if not all of the big exposes in cycling have come from the efforts of those outside the sport or on the fringes of it, or disgruntled ex athletes. It's only very recently that the sport itself can take any credit for it.

The irony is that for all the bad press it gets, it's made way more of an effort (in recent years as you say) than many other sports

I would think that doping is so endemic in the likes of rugby or power lifting that the main ethos in those sports is all about keeping it under the carpet. And anyone who digs or questions is quickly shunned. If someone were to write a speculative article about doping in these sports they would never get another interview from the sport again.

To twist it all around, the problem with cycling (from the perspective of dopers) is that there are too many clean cyclists who feel cheated by those who dope and are more than happy to spill the beans to journalists. This scenario does not happen in sports where doping is endemic. There you just have silence.

dublin49

harringtonp wrote: »

The irony is that for all the bad press it gets, it's made way more of an effort (in recent years as you say) than many other sports

I would think that doping is so endemic in the likes of rugby or power lifting that the main ethos in those sports is all about keeping it under the carpet. And anyone who digs or questions is quickly shunned. If someone were to write a speculative article about doping in these sports they would never get another interview from the sport again.

To twist it all around, the problem with cycling (from the perspective of dopers) is that there are too many clean cyclists who feel cheated by those who dope and are more than happy to spill the beans to journalists. This scenario does not happen in sports where doping is endemic. There you just have silence.

I read a long piece a few years ago from Der Spiegel by a coach who seemed very convincing that nobody can win a track medal at the olympics without doping as advantage gained is so great in disciplines where the margins of success and failure are so small.

Macy0161

Football has become far more aerobically based than it used to be. The high press, tippy tappy etc. Just because they're skilful doesn't mean there aren't benefits of the same drugs. Additionally, much of the doping in the past in cycling has been to aid recovery - two games a week over an entire season? And rotation of teams is less now than it was in the 90's.

Rugby dominated by the collision now.

And all with far more potential financial gains than cycling.

Anyway, I'm happy that cycling does what it does to try to address issues, and cycling fans raise far more eyebrows than most other sports. But I personally won't take lectures or accept cycling as an outlier.

dublin49

[

Anyway, I'm happy that cycling does what it does to try to address issues, and cycling fans raise far more eyebrows than most other sports. But I personally won't take lectures or accept cycling as an outlier.[/QUOTE]

Agree cycling is not the exception but look how cycling was pushed into getting its house in order,A support car full to gills with drugs stopped and caught on the way to Ireland in 1998.Merckx was failing drug tests in the late 60's.I wonder where we would be currently if that car had got through.The only way we will see improvement is if technology allows us to preserve blood /Dna samples into the future and retired athletes face financial and reputational ruin for the rest of their lives ,rather than the current clean slate you get when you retire.

nsnoefc1878

Macy0161 wrote: »

Football has become far more aerobically based than it used to be. The high press, tippy tappy etc. Just because they're skilful doesn't mean there aren't benefits of the same drugs. Additionally, much of the doping in the past in cycling has been to aid recovery - two games a week over an entire season? And rotation of teams is less now than it was in the 90's.

Rugby dominated by the collision now.

And all with far more potential financial gains than cycling.

Anyway, I'm happy that cycling does what it does to try to address issues, and cycling fans raise far more eyebrows than most other sports. But I personally won't take lectures or accept cycling as an outlier.

I don't doubt for a second that it is rife in soccer, but rotation is not less now than it was in the 90s, in the 90s only 2 subs were allowed as opposed to 3 now, the club's at the top and competing in Europe had smaller squads then, not the 22 first team players they all have now. They also took the domestic cups more seriously than they do now, and played their top players in those to a greater degree.

Macy0161

dublin49 wrote: »

Agree cycling is not the exception but look how cycling was pushed into getting its house in order,A support car full to gills with drugs stopped and caught on the way to Ireland in 1998.Merckx was failing drug tests in the late 60's.I wonder where we would be currently if that car had got through.The only way we will see improvement is if technology allows us to preserve blood /Dna samples into the future and retired athletes face financial and reputational ruin for the rest of their lives ,rather than the current clean slate you get when you retire.

No need for the raids when it's in plain sight. Football managers can still say, unquestioned, at a press conference about players having injections to get over injuries. Players talking about getting "special juices" to take before training. The 90's Juve team. Tennis players such as Andy Murray, have openly said (without question) having cortisone shots to get through matches. Brian O'Driscoll saying on off the ball how many pain killers he was taking to get through matches (and yet the controversy in cycling over the also legal tramadol).

I think it was Robert Millar/ Pippa York who once said (to paraphrase) a cyclist who takes a cortisone injection is a cheat, but a footballer who takes one to play a match is a hero.

It's good that cycling is held to a higher standard, but again, I just won't take that cycling is somehow special or an outlier. It still comes down to don't look, don't find.

CramCycle

I've given the story before about a sports science talk years ago, and they had the team doctors from Chelsea there and they talked about taking blood from Didier Drogba, and then reinfusing it at a later date to aid recovery. Basically what we call doping but because it was soccer, and don't forget, room full of sports scientists at this talk. Colleague of mine asked the question and was looked at as if he hadn't a notion. Brian O'Driscoll admitted on radio that he took painkillers to get through matches (and he also admitted it was wrong and effectively cheating). Don't get me wrong, due to the nature of cycling and athletics, it is more likely to be a lone wolf at the lower levels than a team outfit but in other sports, they are team sports. My Daughters boyfriend went to a fairly decent rugby school in Dublin and they were being trained up on supplements etc. from 1st year secondary school, by 4th year there was a cohort who were heavy gym goers and lets just say, the transformations were unrealistic in the time frames given for many of them.

Anyway, that's all I will say on it, its across all sports and it is no worse in cycling than any other sport, we are just more proactive about going after it, although that does seem to be the preserve of certain countries, other places I have visited, the fans see it as part of the sport and it doesn't offend them at all. Does it happen, yes. Will I be disgusted by athletes doing it when caught, yes. Am I going to get worked up about it at that level, nope, I gave up on that, life is too short and until they start blanket testing for anyone getting paid as a matter of course, then it simply isn't worth the headache. At an amateur level I will hate them but above that, until they do more, I have gotten over giving much space to it in my head. You see alot of people won twotter where

On the same note, when I finish competitive cycling and hit retirement age form work, I am giving all the drugs a go, just to see what they are like.

harringtonp

CramCycle wrote: »

On the same note, when I finish competitive cycling and hit retirement age form work, I am giving all the drugs a go, just to see what they are like.

I know you're only joking but my mother was on a heavy gradually reducing course of steroids for an auto immune condition and after seeing the effect they had an her I wouldn't be going anywhere near them.

dastardly00

So Doctor Freeman has been struck off the medical register permanently

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/56459664

I wonder if there is any chance now that he will come clean and tell the whole story

velo.2010

dastardly00 wrote: »

I wonder if there is any chance now that he will come clean and tell the whole story

Well, he has plenty of time to write a book about it.

Macy0161

Journalist putting out on twitter yesterday, that Harry Maguire's injury yesterday must be "proper", as he played two months last season due to pain killing injections to get through matches. Not an eyelid batted or eyebrow raised...