GMC Hearing, Freeman and Sutton.

velo.2010 · 12-11-2019 5:21pm #1

Is anyone following this... extraordinary stuff!

You get the impression that there is a dark overlord in the background, pulling the strings, as Sutton still insists he was the head coach of a clean organisation - BC/Team Sky - as Freeman's QC throws every accusation at him.

https://twitter.com/danroan

velo.2010 · 12-11-2019 5:34pm

The tactic of proving Sutton is a bully - and therefore bullied Freeman into ordering the Test patches - worked!

mr spuckler · 12-11-2019 5:37pm

Had just been reading this. Amazing stuff.

brocbrocach · 12-11-2019 5:42pm

It's well worth looking at that twitter link.
I get the impression Sutton is being thrown under the bus here. Couldn't happen to a nicer fella but it does come across like a stitch-up. Question is who benefits?

velo.2010 · 12-11-2019 6:48pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

Couldn't happen to a nicer fella but it does come across like a stitch-up. Question is who benefits?

Everyone associated with British Cycling/Team Sky-Ineos bar Freeman and Sutton if, and only if, Sutton keeps his mouth shut on Thursday and flies back to Spain, taking what he really knows with him. Expect lots of calls back and forward with 'the dark overlord'.

Freeman and his legal team have played this well. I think Freeman will take whatever punishment comes his way and disappear into the ether, never to be heard again.

godtabh · 12-11-2019 11:55pm

Some of the quotes are priceless.

Is Sutton compelled to testify?

harringtonp · 13-11-2019 7:28am

godtabh wrote: »

Some of the quotes are priceless.

Is Sutton compelled to testify?

You get the impression that if this was been done by usada the outcome would expect very different.

During the Armstrong saga they put the frighteners on when getting testimonies

CramCycle · 13-11-2019 11:03am

If this was a comedy on BBc or C4, you would say they went too far and made it unbelievable.

harringtonp · 13-11-2019 2:58pm

CramCycle wrote: »

If this was a comedy on BBc or C4, you would say they went too far and made it unbelievable.

If it was staged they did a great job. "Have a big row lads and then you storm off out of there and back to Spain. That will knock the steam out of it "

Will be interesting to see if he is back tomorrow. Reminds me of he days of hulk hogan and jake the snake

Doc07 · 13-11-2019 3:19pm

It’s genius really. A poor shy doctor bullied by a big bulky coach who needs Testogel for ‘social reasons’.
Can just imagine the pre inquiry team talk ‘lets go with erectile dysfunction, sure nobody would lie about that due to embarrassment, will make everyone forget about all the inconsistencies in the Bradley/Froome era’

Mainstream media and possibly cycling fans don’t really care anymore that at a professional level it’s still a stinking pile of doping and cheating.
Still fantastic to watch on a good day though and in the h’penny place of bad ethics compared to some ‘bigger’ sports.

Macy0161 · 13-11-2019 3:28pm

Both of them being thrown under the bus imo. Sutton doesn't really have much to gain or lose in the UK at this stage.

harringtonp wrote: »

You get the impression that if this was been done by usada the outcome would expect very different.

During the Armstrong saga they put the frighteners on when getting testimonies

USADA didn't put the frighteners on anyone. It was the federal investigation, with the grand jury and threat of jail time that forced the evidence.

godtabh · 13-11-2019 10:18pm

He's not turning up tomorrow.

brocbrocach · 14-11-2019 12:01pm

godtabh wrote: »

He's not turning up tomorrow.

He's right not to. Twas a circus.
But now we're left at Freeman says A, Sutton says B. If there was ever a good opportunity to break the code it was during this sh1tshow. Freeman seems to have anxiety issues and Sutton is stuipid angry and a bit more pressure could have seen all kinds of revelations - as hinted at in Sutton's threatening texts.

14-11-2019 12:31pm

Yeah Freeman a no show today

https://www.rte.ie/sport/cycling/2019/1114/1090835-adverse-psychological-reaction-behind-freeman-no-show/

velo.2010 · 14-11-2019 3:48pm

According to QC O'Rourke, Sutton has 7 kids by 3 or 4 different women and was riding the BC masseuse around the time of the ordered Testogel.

She'e presenting Sutton as a sex addict and therefore needed the Testosterone to keep up his prowess. Says he would brag about his conquests to Dr Peters.

He sounds like Pat Mustard!:D

CramCycle · 14-11-2019 3:50pm

CramCycle wrote: »

If this was a comedy on BBc or C4, you would say they went too far and made it unbelievable.

velo.2010 wrote: »

According to QC O'Rourke, Sutton has 7 kids by 3 or 4 different women and was riding the BC masseuse around the time of the ordered Testogel.

She'e presenting Sutton as a sex addict and therefore needed the Testosterone to keep up his prowess. Says he would brag about his conquests to Dr Peters.

He sounds like Pat Mustard!:D

I suspect the show will be cancelled after episode 6 and become a cult classic that no one watches but everyone quotes.

brocbrocach · 14-11-2019 6:44pm

velo.2010 wrote: »

According to QC O'Rourke, Sutton has 7 kids by 3 or 4 different women and was riding the BC masseuse around the time of the ordered Testogel.

She'e presenting Sutton as a sex addict and therefore needed the Testosterone to keep up his prowess. Says he would brag about his conquests to Dr Peters.

He sounds like Pat Mustard!:D

Jeezus that's not nice linen to have washed in public. It wouldn't pass muster for being put in the tabloids even. With friends like Freeman ...

TheBlaaMan · 14-11-2019 7:22pm

This is his missus' twitter account....

https://twitter.com/daisychainpink/status/1194563856141619201?s=20

ahem

velo.2010 · 14-11-2019 10:54pm

Even if not his intention, Steve Peters gave more of an insight into the results driven mindset of British Cycling then anyone else associated with the organisation.

Freeman was wholly inadequate at the administrative side of his job.

The hierarchy at British Cycling could be described as dysfunctional in its operation.

Questions were never asked as to whom and what the Testogel, and potentially other substances, were ordered for.

Sutton was given free reign in how he did things - no one could or would try to question his methods because of his tough image.

Still no clear explanation as to why testosterone would be ordered from such a company when the pharmacy across the road could have provided the very same.

British Cycling comes across as a farcical, amateur hour set up from this tribunal.

Macy0161 · 15-11-2019 10:42am

The impression given at the cycling podcast live event last night was there's much more to come out from the Tribunal. I'm not so convinced, unless there's further investigations once this process concludes.

velo.2010 · 15-11-2019 5:13pm

So, physio Phil 'jiffy bag ' Burt can remember precisely what was in the Testogel order (not just testosterone BTW), yet can't remember what he packed in the infamous package to Wiggins in 2011 - one month after the British Cycling order.

Sutton continues to come across as a serial bully. Brailsford and Peters let him to it because he, ultimately, got the results they required.

A larger, deeper investigation of the 'medal factory' is needed but may never happen because the truth - which many already know - will be to jarring to the wider British public.

It's in the best interests of British Cycling, UK Sport, UKAD etc. to maintain the status quo, and their existence, by skimming over any details from this inquiry.

velo.2010 · 09-12-2019 9:50pm

Freeman 'prescribed a skiing holiday by his doctor' so can't attend if the tribunal runs into the new year.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-absent-from-medical-tribunal-after-upsetting-media-reports/

You couldn't make this stuff up.

velo.2010 · 10-12-2019 9:16pm

I'm fond of a can of Coke and a McDonalds myself but not like this...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/50725914

Odd though, that Freeman would have to order testosterone (to treat erectile dysfunction) for a guy who he knew was a former doper!

velo.2010 · 06-10-2020 8:20pm

Its back!

Freeman was in the dock today. He said he took a screwdriver to the replacement laptop for the laptop 'stolen' in 2014. He described how he saw a programme about unlawful data retrieval (in India apparently, so no stereotyping there then) from old laptops so, just to be sure, he went at it with a screwdriver, and didn't bother to back up the information stored on that laptop. How very convenient!

More about Shane Sutton's mickey and an 'interrogation' by Sky's James Murdoch ahead of the DCMS inquiry.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-says-he-destroyed-laptop-with-screwdriver-as-tribunal-resumes/

Mefistofelino · 07-10-2020 1:04pm

velo.2010 wrote: »

Its back!

Freeman was in the dock today. He said he took a screwdriver to the replacement laptop for the laptop 'stolen' in 2014. He described how he saw a programme about unlawful data retrieval (in India apparently, so no stereotyping there then) from old laptops so, just to be sure, he went at it with a screwdriver, and didn't bother to back up the information stored on that laptop. How very convenient!

More about Shane Sutton's mickey and an 'interrogation' by Sky's James Murdoch ahead of the DCMS inquiry.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-says-he-destroyed-laptop-with-screwdriver-as-tribunal-resumes/

That'd be a great punk band name

velo.2010 · 08-10-2020 2:14pm

Richard Freeman proving quite clearly that being a doctor doesn't necessarily mean your smart.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-now-claims-he-destroyed-the-testosterone-gels-in-tribunal/

Of course, he could be playing the 'dumb as fcuk' card to get off the charge of intending to dope athletes charge, but this guy can't keep his story straight. He claims to have brought anti-doping protocols to various sports, but in another breath, he says he didn't know possesion of a prohibited substance without a TUE is a violation of the WADA code.

He also said nothing about destroying the Testogel in his previous submissions to the DCMS or the GMC.

I think his his lies will be his undoing... eventually.

velo.2010 · 12-10-2020 9:51pm

Bit of a longer read today but worth following the case...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-i-never-doped-a-rider/

Freeman admitted to effectively 'doping' the Team Sky/British cycling staff under the guise of marginal gains; however, he claims he never doped a rider.

The Fit4Sport testogel saga has never been satisfactorily explained. Did Phil 'the physio' Burt spook Freeman and Peters when he discovered the Testogel package and they quickly concocted the 'email them back and get rid of it' story?

The other day, Freeman said Peters was possibly lying when he(Peters) told the hearing that Freeman did not tell him about destroying it, only telling Peters that the Testogel was for Sutton. Are they struggling to keep their stories straight?

gmacww · 13-10-2020 11:55am

Been following the trial and it's interesting. This is a good run down of things:

https://twitter.com/Jamie_langley1/status/1315915156631752709

The issue is is that while we have a lot of claims and admissions on Freeman's part he is still protecting himself and others. This is a hearing into his competence to continue practicing it's not an investigation into doping in sport. With that in mind if he says I gave <substance name> to rider X then he will be deemed no longer fit to practice which is what he doesn't want. To that end there are and will be further claims however no smoking gun.

At the end of the day anyone with an interest in cycling and who follows the sport knows the Sky/INEOS/BC situation. After this DB and INEOS will release a statement denying everything and they will move onto the Vuelta as if nothing happened.

mr spuckler · 27-10-2020 12:51pm

Freeman doesn't sound like he's in great shape here, his fitness to give evidence being is questioned.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/26/freeman-denies-trying-to-remove-laptop-as-tribunal-takes-bizarre-turn

velo.2010 · 27-10-2020 8:17pm

Freeman has seemingly tampered or destroyed every computer he's owned in the past ten years. One might think he was trying to hide something!

This latest bizarre computer incident seems like an ostentatious attempt to play to the gallery, so to speak, with his mental health.

While not a direct investigation into doping in sport (as mentioned in a post above), if he is considered unfit for the hearing we may not get to hear of the alleged practises within BC and Sky regarding testosterone and other forms of exogenous recovery.

dastardly00 · 27-10-2020 9:23pm

This whole thing just gets more and more bizarre

magicbastarder · 12-03-2021 11:07am

Dr Richard Freeman found guilty of ordering banned testosterone for unnamed cyclist

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/12/dr-richard-freeman-found-guilty-of-ordering-banned-testosterone-for-unnamed-rider

godtabh · 12-03-2021 12:16pm

finally an outcome.

Now what happens to him, British Cycling and Ineos?

Beasty · 12-03-2021 12:26pm

The unnamed cyclist may not have been British

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it

:pac:

Presumably though Ineos are clear as it happened in the Sky days

The fact BC employed a doctor who has been found guilty of this should certainly cause some ructions. Given BC has different leadership now it may be easier to get some proper answers from them

Itziger · 12-03-2021 12:44pm

godtabh wrote: »

finally an outcome.

Now what happens to him, British Cycling and Ineos?

It'll blow over. Most outside of cycling are just not bothered. They're like, cycling+doping=zzzzzzz... Those inside will prepare fantastic statements about how all of this happened in THE PAST (!!!!) so it basically doesn't count and aren't we lucky that we have a great clean sport now. FFS. A joke. Meanwhile, rugby, soccer, US football, baseball..... Huge money and see little scrutiny. Lip service is paid to doping by almost all sports other than athletics and cycling.

velo.2010 · 12-03-2021 2:39pm

A bomb has just gone off in British cycling and UK sport in general. This is huge news and will not be going away anytime soon. A doctor employed by, in effect, a publicly funded institution, knowingly ordered testosterone to dope a rider in his care. UKAD will investigate and legal proceedings may begin shortly — the GMC ruling has no legal/criminal consequence.

Shane Sutton quick to emerge and defend himself and Brailsford... that they knew nothing of the Testogel order. Silence from Brailsford at the moment.

dastardly00 · 14-03-2021 1:30pm

Richard Freeman has given his first interview since being found guilty at the GMC tribunal.

He is maintaining his 'innocence' in that he didn't order the testosterone for a rider, and that he has never been involved in doping. Given that he has previously lied to UK Anti-Doping about the purchase, and all the crazy stuff about inadequate medical records, its hard to put much faith in what he is saying.

Some quotes:

"It's so disappointing. It's unbelievable. I have never doped a rider in my life. I'm still to see any evidence of who this rider supposedly was. I accept there are people who don't believe me. They will say I've lied and changed my story and can't trust anything I say. I've admitted to those lies."

"And, yes, I deserved the GMC tribunal. But I can say with a clear conscience that I didn't order Testogel knowing or believing it was for cheating. I'm still shocked at this verdict. I've made plenty of mistakes but I'm not a doping doctor."

His interview is with the Mail on Sunday. I've taken the quotes from this CyclingNews article - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-ive-made-plenty-of-mistakes-but-im-not-a-doping-doctor/

velo.2010 · 14-03-2021 4:13pm

He has no choice but to keep up the lies. If suddenly comes clean now, what would that mean for everyone else in British Cycling and Team Sky who has sung from the same hymn sheet? Well, I think we know what that means.

I see there is more about Froome and his numbers with Shane Sutton expressing his doubts to Brailsford.

nsnoefc1878 · 16-03-2021 2:41pm

Surely if team sky and their results had any shred of credibility left (they didnt for me) it is gone now.
Wiggins should hand back his tdf 'victory' because it counts for absolutely zero now.
Froome should do the same with his 4.
Another low reached by a sport that specialises in it like no other.

nsnoefc1878 · 16-03-2021 2:46pm

Itziger wrote: »

It'll blow over. Most outside of cycling are just not bothered. They're like, cycling+doping=zzzzzzz... Those inside will prepare fantastic statements about how all of this happened in THE PAST (!!!!) so it basically doesn't count and aren't we lucky that we have a great clean sport now. FFS. A joke. Meanwhile, rugby, soccer, US football, baseball..... Huge money and see little scrutiny. Lip service is paid to doping by almost all sports other than athletics and cycling.

Thats just classic whataboutery tho. Look after your own house.
Cycling has no other sport to blame for its complete lack of credibility.
What other sports do or dont do is not relevant.
Cycling has reached a stage were literally no result can be taken at face value. Thats utterly astonishing and its brought it on itself entirely.

Itziger · 16-03-2021 4:01pm

nsnoefc1878 wrote: »

Thats just classic whataboutery tho. Look after your own house.
Cycling has no other sport to blame for its complete lack of credibility.
What other sports do or dont do is not relevant.
Cycling has reached a stage were literally no result can be taken at face value. Thats utterly astonishing and its brought it on itself entirely.

Well, I did include "FFS, what a joke" and I tend to agree with your sentiments otherwise.

Funny thing is, I still enjoy cycling, even with my scepticism.

Macy0161 · 16-03-2021 4:07pm

All pro sport is the same, so call it "whataboutery" if you like, but don't test don't find still remains true.

nsnoefc1878 · 16-03-2021 4:19pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

All pro sport is the same, so call it "whataboutery" if you like, but don't test don't find still remains true.

It is whataboutery, the very definition of it.
and serves absolutely no purpose.

Macy0161 · 16-03-2021 4:23pm

That's grand, I'll stop watching cycling, and go and watch which clean pro sport? Which would you suggest?

nsnoefc1878 · 16-03-2021 5:10pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's grand, I'll stop watching cycling, and go and watch which clean pro sport? Which would you suggest?

What an odd, childish response.

griffin100 · 16-03-2021 5:30pm

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/team-skys-zero-tolerance-policy-was-a-total-joke-says-former-rider/

I’d say JTL has been waiting for a while to get that off his chest.

Brailsford might have to hand back his knighthood for doping reasons

dublin49 · 16-03-2021 5:32pm

Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect that drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.

Itziger · 16-03-2021 5:56pm

dublin49 wrote: »

Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect the drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.

For me it boils down to money in the modern game. Sure, 50 years ago soccer and rugby probably had next to nothing in the way of drugs - unlike cycling, but nowadays??

If you're earning 50,000 a week (or 20) and you're in danger of losing your place on the team or even squad to some sprightly young speedster, the temptation to take a few grams must be massive. That's not even getting into the fight against other teams! As for skill..... skill ain't much use if your opponent is beating you to every ball and continues to do so with ease as the game progresses.

Then as the season progresses, the extra training that the doping allows you to put in begins to pay off. So I don't buy the skills thing tbh. If a certain 40 year old tennis star can't reach the ball in the 3rd or 5th set all the skills in the world won't help him. Allegedly.

griffin100 · 16-03-2021 7:21pm

dublin49 wrote: »

Just a general point about doping in sport,I thinks sports where strength ,endurance ,speed are the overwhelming neccessary component like Cycling ,Athletics ,power lifting etc the temptation to dope is much greater than for a primarily skill based sport where speed Skill and endurance are a factor but not neccessarily the predominate one such as Tennis,soccer ,GAA etc.I think Rugby is the exception though as although it involves ball skills and intelligence the power /strength factor has become dominant and I suspect that drug abuse is probably greater in that sport than other skill based games.South African Rugby regularly lets her slip show with regard to drug abuse .At elite sport level I would like to see the retention of blood samples for years if practical to persuade Dopers they will eventually be caught.

Drugs are rife in every sport. Tennis and soccer are no exception, look at Spain and what operation Puerto is rumoured to have found. It’s also not that long ago since top level footballers engaged in analogous blood doping, banking blood and reinfusing, long after it became banned in cycling. GAA is no exception either, we just like to think it is.

I remember reading about a chemist who I think was based in South America. His expertise was in making slight modifications to drugs every time a test had been developed for one so that his new formulae would beat the tests. I remember him saying that he had clients in every sport, even archery where drugs were used to minimise hand tremors.

harringtonp · 16-03-2021 7:51pm

Two questions

Who do you think the Testogel was intended for ? And who doesn't necessarily have to be a single person

And assuming abuse is rife in rugby why do you think so little of it makes main stream media ? As an example David Walsh covers rugby and cycling among other sports. All his Sunday Times cycling articles are about doping where as I've never seen it mentioned in his rugby articles.

CramCycle · 16-03-2021 8:00pm

harringtonp wrote: »

Two questions

Who do you think the Testogel was intended for ? And who doesn't necessarily have to be a single person

And assuming abuse is rife in rugby why do you think so little of it makes main stream media ? As an example David Walsh covers rugby and cycling among other sports. All his Sunday Times cycling articles are about doping where as I've never seen it mentioned in his rugby articles.

Just google French Rugby doping, it is published in mainstream media but most don't want too know with former international players getting shunned for pointing it out, plenty of Amateurs getting popped here for a sport with little testing at that level. I could give anecdotes but when a 115kg person, 2m tall can make a competitive athletic sprint that most sprinters would be happy with mid game while holding a ball, well, it is what iit is. We have had our own players with unusual high testosterone and so on. Personally I like Rugby but I don't pretend it doesn't happen.

GMC Hearing, Freeman and Sutton.

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