Fueling yourself on the Trial

Large bottle small glass · 08-07-2019 1:13pm

lgk wrote: »

MTB burns ~600 calories an hour assuming average weight range. Anyone with even basic pre-fueling who feels they are depleting glycogen stores to the point where they need to refuel during a 25km spin is trying to compensate for lack of fitness through fueling. It doesn't work.

Yep, even if you use 800 cals/hr and are fit and metabolically healthy, you shouldn't need any food, for anything under 2hrs.

A fit male should have circa 2000/2500 cals of glycogen. Even on a hard spin some of the energy used will come from fat and after 2hrs there should still be a glycogen reserve.

You might get all sorts of cues to eat; 20/30/40/50 yrs of throwing food into your job at the slightest hint of hunger will do that. The hardware to go without for a few hours exercise is there and lying idle with most

I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace.

And an apple is vastly superior to a banana! It won't cook in your jersey and has similar energy.

To OP anything sweet will do, you probably aren't depleted but the sweet taste in mouth will negate whatever "poor me" cue you are getting!

Tenzor07 · 08-07-2019 1:16pm

lgk wrote: »

Anyone taking 12 hours to cover 25km has issues other than fueling!

What I actually said was ... when someone wakes up to go for a spin, and have been asleep for say 8 hours, maybe didn't eat 2 hours before bed, and then in the morning between getting ready, getting to the mountains allow say 2 hours, that person has gone without food for up to 12 hours before cycling...

Tenzor07 · 08-07-2019 1:35pm

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue.
It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace.

No way, 50k MTB on an empty stomach, not a nice feeling if you get the knock halfway into the spin! Or eat the entire fridge when you get home from being so hungry...

Congratulations to you for being able to ride on the road for 150k+ at whatever your endurance pace is i would guess 150k takes around 7 hours...with no food, again, No Thanks!

prunudo · 08-07-2019 1:40pm

I think its wrong to be suggesting going for a 3hr ride without some sort of food/energy intake. While it may work for some people it doesn't for most and goes against anything I've read from nutritionists or coaches.

Good jib! · 08-07-2019 2:05pm

Personally, from hard experience, I would not go out for a two-hour spin unless I had eaten and slept correctly. Maybe I'd get away with it, but there's just so much that can go wrong on a MTB spin, that anything that takes away from your performance, such as lack of sleep or lack of energy are just going to increase the risk of accident.

lgk · 08-07-2019 4:22pm

prunudo wrote: »

I think its wrong to be suggesting going for a 3hr ride without some sort of food/energy intake. While it may work for some people it doesn't for most and goes against anything I've read from nutritionists or coaches.

Who said 3 hours? If we're still talking about doing that 25km loop, any nutritionist who suggests you need re-fueling during an easy 3 hours doesn't know what they're talking about.

prunudo · 08-07-2019 4:27pm

lgk wrote: »

Who said 3 hours? If we're still talking about doing that 25km loop, any nutritionist who suggests you need re-fueling during an easy 3 hours doesn't know what they're talking about.

Large bottle small glass said the following,

"I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace"

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

lgk · 08-07-2019 4:38pm

prunudo wrote: »

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

It's all about pacing and heart rate. If you keep out of your anaerobic zone, then every normal person will have more than enough energy within their glycogen stores to manage 2-3 hours without any problem. If you're pushing harder than your fitness levels allow and into anaerobic metabolism, then refueling might give you a psychological boost, but won't do much for energy levels or the lactic acid you're building up.

Large bottle small glass · 08-07-2019 4:42pm

prunudo wrote: »

Large bottle small glass said the following,

"I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace"

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

I said why I did, I didn't say you are anyone else should do it in the morning.

In the context of the proposition that there is something unique about mtb riding that needs constant refueling I was pointing out what an average non elite rider can do.

Can we use up with the performance stuff to. With no disrespect I take it OP is plodding around Ballyhoura for a spin and not racing.

When ye ease up on the strawmen, critique the numbers I posted in the context of a 2 hrs mtb spin.

Assuming OP isn't suffering from metabolic disease, is reasonable fit where is his glycogen going?

You may feel like something, you may feel better after it but assuming the above you are not glycogen depleted after 1 or 2hrs.

smacl · 08-07-2019 5:30pm

prunudo wrote: »

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something

Not for a short early morning spin. I'd often cycle up to three rock mast, the Hellfire club or similar first thing in the morning before work for a mooch around the trails and have never had an issue with fuel. Main reason for not eating beforehand is the short time window in which to get out and back for work. To be fair, I've no shortage of excess calories hanging around my midriff and am going at a pretty lamentable pace, but lack of food has never been an issue.

Could be an issue if you're lean and have a carefully regulated diet, but I'd guess most people wouldn't have any problem.

Tenzor07 · 08-07-2019 6:42pm

lgk wrote: »

It's all about pacing and heart rate. If you keep out of your anaerobic zone, then every normal person will have more than enough energy within their glycogen stores to manage 2-3 hours without any problem. If you're pushing harder than your fitness levels allow and into anaerobic metabolism, then refueling might give you a psychological boost, but won't do much for energy levels or the lactic acid you're building up.

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.

However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

prunudo · 08-07-2019 7:06pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.

However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

I was starting to wonder was I doing it all wrong, my heart rate can get as high in the decents as it can on a hard climb.

Tenzor07 · 08-07-2019 7:38pm

prunudo wrote: »

I was starting to wonder was I doing it all wrong, my heart rate can get as high in the decents as it can on a hard climb.

Of course, unless it's a smooth enough downhill trall then you're dealing with rocks, roots, obstacles and sudden changes in terrain, as well as getting back up to speed after taking a sharp corner, and keeping a 13kg or so bike in line, plenty to get the HR out of the aerobic zone...

saccades · 08-07-2019 10:43pm

Oats for brekky.
A flap jack to nibble during the spin.
A couple of gels for those times when i descend the wrong side of lugnaquilla.

On a big spin?

Oats for brekky.
Flapjack every hour.
Mouthful or two of bombay mix when I'm tired of sweet stuff.
High5 or similar with isotonic mix, 500ml plus per hour as I'm a sweaty sod.
Caffeine.

Pots of rice with a dollop of jam through the night, it`s less energy releasing but soothing on the stomach plus rice ****s are less effort than most others.

Ignore bread and protein (like burgers and pizzas), too much effort to digest, think of them as the prize at the end.

Large bottle small glass · 09-07-2019 8:44am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Of course, unless it's a smooth enough downhill trall then you're dealing with rocks, roots, obstacles and sudden changes in terrain, as well as getting back up to speed after taking a sharp corner, and keeping a 13kg or so bike in line, plenty to get the HR out of the aerobic zone...

That all very interesting but what happens the 2000-2500 cals of glycogen in a 25km 2hr spin?

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2016/09/do-blood-glucose-levels-affect-hunger.html?m=1

You might feel like food, it might give you a boost but there probably is no energy crisis.

lgk · 09-07-2019 9:03am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

I've no doubts many posters here have lots more experience than me. I don't know what your understanding of biology and sports science are, I'm guessing not much.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.

I don't do much road biking, but it's just as easy go into the red and maintain it on a road bike if you want.

Who needs a power meter? Power output is meaningless here. Heart rate watches are cheap, and with even without one it's easy enough to gauge breathing and your own heart rate.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

I must be doing something wrong, I've never managed to burn anywhere near 2,000 calories on a 25km MTB spin. The guys in the Olympics aren't burning through the cals at that rate.

steamsey · 09-07-2019 11:27am

I've rarely seen any agreement on nutrition in any context.

My advice is water, water and more water. Start getting well hydrated the day before. I don't use gels etc - they don't agree with me but obviously there is a huge market for them.

Glad I read this thread - didn't realise a banana skin took 2 years to decompose. Good to know.

Lemming · 09-07-2019 1:41pm

lgk wrote: »

I don't do much road biking, but it's just as easy go into the red and maintain it on a road bike if you want.

And you've missed what he was saying.

The experience of "going into the red" in both disciplines places different demands on the rider, with some obvious cross-over at points, so you aren't comparing like with like as there isn't really any equivalence other than you are on a bicycle. Tell me, which is harder? Rugby, GAA, or Soccer? Other than being ball sports; you can't make much equivalence (or convincingly definitive equivalence at any rate).

Tenzor07 · 09-07-2019 1:44pm

steamsey wrote: »

I've rarely seen any agreement on nutrition in any context.
My advice is water, water and more water. Start getting well hydrated the day before. I don't use gels etc - they don't agree with me but obviously there is a huge market for them..

Ha! True, sure everyone is an expert!

Bottom line is I wouldn't advise anyone to go for a 25km/3 hour off-road MTB spin without some food in there bellies, some Banana's and oatey type bars in there back pockets...

Gels are for racing only, or if you have gone out on a spin with someone who had no brekky and has no food with them so got the knock and need carbs quick! :pac:

Lemming · 09-07-2019 1:58pm

My own opinion (HAH!) on this subject is to experiment with what works for you. Everyone is different and there is plenty of information, receipes and programmes to try. Find something that your body agrees with and build around it; maybe have a word with a sports nutritionist or some such if you are particularly inclined or you are looking to find those ever-increasingly elusive 'marginal gains' with a view to serious competition.

Enduro · 09-07-2019 2:17pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.

However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

Oh FFS. You're fooling yourself. MTBing is not some uniquely arduous sport that requires you to eat more. I have competed in many MTB races over the years (never mind spins with breaks whenever anyone feels like it, or to let the group reform), and have eaten exactly nothing during the races. I've one or two category podiums to show for that, which isn't bad considering its not my first sport by a long shot (Just the most fun!), and especially not bad when apparently it should be impossible to even get around without stuffing myself.

lgk is spot on here with the basic science. I've no problem with people thinking they have a dependency on "needing" to eat on spins. Most probably though that is a psychological need rather than a physical one.

Tenzor07 · 09-07-2019 2:41pm

Enduro wrote: »

Oh FFS. You're fooling yourself. MTBing is not some uniquely arduous sport that requires you to eat more. .

I expressed my opinion based on my own experiences, just like the majority of average Joe's I won't be going out for a spin without food in my stomach and back pocket.

We can't all train ourselves over the years to be like a Camel when it comes to food, the likes of yourself who could probably survive for months on a desert Island and not crave food even once!

Enduro · 09-07-2019 5:14pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I expressed my opinion based on my own experiences, just like the majority of average Joe's I won't be going out for a spin without food in my stomach and back pocket.

We can't all train ourselves over the years to be like a Camel when it comes to food, the likes of yourself who could probably survive for months on a desert Island and not crave food even once!

I'm not superman. In cycling terms I'm most definitely not! The basic science, as outlined by lgk, shows that in fact we can all train ourselves to go on a 2 hour spin at full whack without needing food. But then in reality no non-pro is likely to do a 2 hour spin at full whack, so the parameters are even more generous.

Like I said, I don't doubt that you wouldn't go on a spin without food. It tallies with most people's experiences. It tallies with received wisdom. ITs pretty much part of cycling culture (even more so the coffee and cake stops for the roadies). What I would doubt is that you have an actually physcial need.

The training I do is to fat burn more effectively, which pushes out the no-food boundaries to days rather than hours, but that's not relevenet here. It does still apply equally to mountain biking though. It's not a special sport in its own special energy burning category.

lgk · 09-07-2019 7:01pm

Lemming wrote: »

And you've missed what he was saying.

The experience of "going into the red" in both disciplines places different demands on the rider, with some obvious cross-over at points, so you aren't comparing like with like as there isn't really any equivalence other than you are on a bicycle.

The experience of going into the red could only be different between road and mountain biking if somehow your internal organs were aware of which discipline you are engaged in.

Tenzor07 · 09-07-2019 7:11pm

Mods: I think we need a new thread "MTB Nutrition on the trail"

saccades · 09-07-2019 10:44pm

steamsey wrote: »

Glad I read this thread - didn't realise a banana skin took 2 years to decompose. Good to know.

I'm really sceptical of this fact - if we want to take anything to extremes human bodies over 1000 years old have been found that haven't decomposed (Lindow man for example).

Banana peels do not decompose at a rate any faster or slower than other organic, green materials. The rate of decomposition is dependent upon the composting method. Otherwise there would be gazillions of banana skins at the top/bottom of slieve maan for example.

I do agree with bringing the skin home as any litter encourages more littering, but let's use that as the reason rather than sophistry.

CramCycle · 16-09-2019 8:04am

steamsey wrote: »

Glad I read this thread - didn't realise a banana skin took 2 years to decompose. Good to know.

A boardsie done a timelapse on this before. I'm typical Irish weather, at a cold time of year, it took well under a month to decompose a banana. The two year thing is from an article where the weather was sub zero alot of the time.

Look at your compost bin and see how much the stuff rots if left alone for a week.

prunudo · 12-10-2019 9:27am

So lately on the trails I've been eating a lot of humble pie.
Decided after reading various posts on this thread that I'd try not fuelling whether that be gels or regular food on my 2-3hr Sunday rides.
Bar Carrick enduro where I took gels and their lunch I haven't taken anything bar water and occasionally a protein bar/shake post ride.

Any times or averages that have dipped are probably more down to weather and ground conditions and my energy levels haven't seemed have to wained.

So all in all, as someone said earlier don't believe the marketing guy that you need to buy the latest nutritional bar/gel to improve your time. Bowl of porridge in the morning will keep you going longer than you think.
Just to add, this seems to have worked for me, not everyone might find this.

Ps. Another thing to add is that these rides aren't overly strenous, usual with a few other lads and chats at the top or bottom of trails, if I was in training then I'd probably reassess the situation.

Fueling yourself on the Trial

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