Fueling yourself on the Trial

Peter T

So what do people eat when they're out for a spin ?

I'm mainly using a protein bar bought in the shop and a few bits of fruit but the majority of my spins are 20-25k. I dont really need to think too hard about fuel really for them. Im planning on doing the blue in ballyhoura saturday. Having done the white I know my usual go to for food will have energy levels running low for the last few kms. I usually have a back up gel for when things get bad but id prefer to keep it off.

Would appreciate any recommendations from the more experienced people on here

Tenzor07

Jam and peanut butter Sangwiches....

Biopace

Peter T wrote: »

So what do people eat when they're out for a spin ?

I'm mainly using a protein bar bought in the shop and a few bits of fruit but the majority of my spins are 20-25k. I dont really need to think too hard about fuel really for them. Im planning on doing the blue in ballyhoura saturday. Having done the white I know my usual go to for food will have energy levels running low for the last few kms. I usually have a back up gel for when things get bad but id prefer to keep it off.

Would appreciate any recommendations from the more experienced people on here

Honestly the Blue isn't much more than the White, a few more kms and not much more elevation (although it is a bit of a slog to the mast), I would go with your usual plus some buttered fruit loaf slices, and a few extra jellys

Peter T

I had come across the jam and peanut butter sandwiches suggestions online. @Biospace I know what your saying about the white only being a bit shorter but towards the end the concentration started drifting. I'll give it a go anyway with the P&J sandwiches and see how it goes

Wanderer78

Blue is tough enough, but as others have said, its not much more than white, climb to the mast is tough. Unfortunately bread is killing my stomach, so I can't really do the peanut butter and jam, sounds good though. Enjoy the day

Tenzor07

make your own oat bars, put in peanut butter, raisins, nuts, honey.....

Peter T

Tenzor07 wrote: »

make your own oat bars, put in peanut butter, raisins, nuts, honey.....

https://emerald-mtb.com/homemade-granola-energy-bars/ I've made these in the past but they get messy after being in a bag for a few hours

covey123

Peter T wrote: »

Im planning on doing the blue in ballyhoura saturday

If you have the time and enough in the tank,you could add some of the red up near the turbines,then get back on the blue, might be another 20 min or so of climbing but two nice trails up there with decent flow on them

Peter T

I'll see how I'm going on the day. I'll keep it in mind

xxyyzz

These things are absolute rocket fuel, gluten free so they are complete sugar-bombs. No gel I have tried comes close
https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/mrs-crimble-s-buttery-oat-flapjack-60021688

DaveyDave

When I first started cycling I never did more than 2 hours or so, I didn't really need to fuel on the bike just had a decent pasta dinner or something.

When I started mountain biking I was cycling an hour each way to Ticknock so I brought two peanut butter sandwiches, not a fan of bananas!

Then when I started doing 5-6 hours on the road bike I started using energy gels. I was very surprised at how well they work and how fast acting they are. They say to have one every 20 minutes but I'd have one every 40 minutes or so after 3-4 hours. I regret going without them for so long.

I'm too lazy to make my own granola bars so for solid food on the go I'd probably grab a Cliff bar.

Also an electrolyte tablet if I'm going through the water.

boomdocker

ordinary food

used to eat energy bars and drinks

but nowadays for the 3/4 hr Sunday spin I just have water with a little cordial and a good ole ham and cheese sandwich
for less than that don;t need anything

when we go for longer, harder spns usually throw in a banana as well, and of course the 150ml can of coke for emergency resuscitation

covey123

Granola bars do a great job at keeping hunger at bay, always pack one for those spins that may turn out longer than planned

prunudo

One of my mates swears by 2 or 3 cans of bulmers the night before a spin, reckons the sugar keeps him going!
Me, I usually just have a high 5 aqua gel after an hour or so, they maybe another 40 mins later. Then usually a nutri grain type bar after that for some solid food if I'm out longer. Fulfil bar at end of spin if I find them on discount.
Think an energy gel every 20mins wouldn't be great on the insides.

Good jib!

For 2 to 3 hour spins, I usually just bring a cheese sandwich and a cereal bar, and usually just eat the sandwich. Think I've had the same cereal bar in the bag since the start of the year.

Anything longer I generally eat whatever the organisers provide en route, haven't done anything longer than 45k (5 hours) so far though.

Peter T

Set off at the weekend with a few bits and my P&J sandwiches. Did the trick

deandean

I've tried all the protein bars, etc. But I've resorted to a couple of ham & cheese sangwiches wrapped in tinfoil. Cheap, tastes great, good combo of protein and carbs.
And one of those fizzy tablets in my water bottle. Good for 4 hours on the trails.

Miklos

Peter T wrote: »

I'm mainly using a protein bar bought in the shop and a few bits of fruit but the majority of my spins are 20-25k.

Forget the protein bars, you need carbs on the ride not protein.

Never underestimate the humble banana!

xxyyzz

Miklos wrote: »

Forget the protein bars, you need carbs on the ride not protein.

Never underestimate the humble banana!

I was thinking the same. Protein for recovery and fast simple carbs for energy.

smacl

Miklos wrote: »

Never underestimate the humble banana!

Plus they come in there own handy rapidly biodegradable wrapper which is easy to open. Not exactly as healthy but I find a pack of haribo snakes or other cheapo jellies work really well for the occasional fuel top up on a long day.

Tenzor07

smacl wrote: »

Plus they come in there own handy rapidly biodegradable wrapper which is easy to open..

Banana skins take up to 2 years to bio-degrade and are a non-native plant, so stick your skins into your pocket and dispose of it in the organic trash can...

covey123

Plus, simply just seeing banana/orange skins on the trail encourages littering

Tenzor07

Some interesting stats about how long things take to Bio Degrade:

How long your litter takes to biodegrade

Paper bag - 1 month

Apple core - 8 weeks

Orange peel and banana skins - 2 years

Plastic bag - 10 to 20 years

A plastic bottle - 450 years

Chewing gum - 1 million years

lgk

How long is the 20-25k taking you? If you're not pushing into the red zone you shouldn't need anything for a spin of that length, should have more than enough glycogen stores. Keeping the heart rate down over long sessions encourages the metabolism of fat as well.

As for gels, a few jelly babies will give you the same energy for a lot less money if you need a boost.

Peter T

I should have added that thats the go to if I haven't had any breakfast. 20-25k would be anything from 1hr30 to 2hrs

Tenzor07

25k offroad spin with no brekkie or food on the trail, no thanks!

lgk

Tenzor07 wrote: »

25k offroad spin with no brekkie or food on the trail, no thanks!

There was no mention of no breakfast before last update. Regardless, if you don't usually have breakfast, 1.5 to 2 hours shouldn't be a problem if you've a decent level of fitness. If you want to go further, check out Enduro's fat adaption approach over in the ultra running thread.

Tenzor07

lgk wrote: »

There was no mention of no breakfast before last update. Regardless, if you don't usually have breakfast, 1.5 to 2 hours shouldn't be a problem if you've a decent level of fitness. If you want to go further, check out Enduro's fat adaption approach over in the ultra running thread.

Ok man, going without food for 12 hours isn't for everyone, MTB needs carbs, although 25k on a nice road bike along the seafront is grand....

...and being as fat adapted as Enduro, that's above the level of most MTB'ers or most humans...

lgk

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ok man, going without food for 12 hours isn't for everyone, MTB needs carbs, although 25k on a nice road bike along the seafront is grand....

Anyone taking 12 hours to cover 25km has issues other than fueling!

MTB burns ~600 calories an hour assuming average weight range. Anyone with even basic pre-fueling who feels they are depleting glycogen stores to the point where they need to refuel during a 25km spin is trying to compensate for lack of fitness through fueling. It doesn't work.

Large bottle small glass

lgk wrote: »

MTB burns ~600 calories an hour assuming average weight range. Anyone with even basic pre-fueling who feels they are depleting glycogen stores to the point where they need to refuel during a 25km spin is trying to compensate for lack of fitness through fueling. It doesn't work.

Yep, even if you use 800 cals/hr and are fit and metabolically healthy, you shouldn't need any food, for anything under 2hrs.

A fit male should have circa 2000/2500 cals of glycogen. Even on a hard spin some of the energy used will come from fat and after 2hrs there should still be a glycogen reserve.

You might get all sorts of cues to eat; 20/30/40/50 yrs of throwing food into your job at the slightest hint of hunger will do that. The hardware to go without for a few hours exercise is there and lying idle with most

I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace.

And an apple is vastly superior to a banana! It won't cook in your jersey and has similar energy.

To OP anything sweet will do, you probably aren't depleted but the sweet taste in mouth will negate whatever "poor me" cue you are getting!

Tenzor07

lgk wrote: »

Anyone taking 12 hours to cover 25km has issues other than fueling!

What I actually said was ... when someone wakes up to go for a spin, and have been asleep for say 8 hours, maybe didn't eat 2 hours before bed, and then in the morning between getting ready, getting to the mountains allow say 2 hours, that person has gone without food for up to 12 hours before cycling...

Tenzor07

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue.
It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace.

No way, 50k MTB on an empty stomach, not a nice feeling if you get the knock halfway into the spin! Or eat the entire fridge when you get home from being so hungry...

Congratulations to you for being able to ride on the road for 150k+ at whatever your endurance pace is i would guess 150k takes around 7 hours...with no food, again, No Thanks!

prunudo

I think its wrong to be suggesting going for a 3hr ride without some sort of food/energy intake. While it may work for some people it doesn't for most and goes against anything I've read from nutritionists or coaches.

Good jib!

Personally, from hard experience, I would not go out for a two-hour spin unless I had eaten and slept correctly. Maybe I'd get away with it, but there's just so much that can go wrong on a MTB spin, that anything that takes away from your performance, such as lack of sleep or lack of energy are just going to increase the risk of accident.

lgk

prunudo wrote: »

I think its wrong to be suggesting going for a 3hr ride without some sort of food/energy intake. While it may work for some people it doesn't for most and goes against anything I've read from nutritionists or coaches.

Who said 3 hours? If we're still talking about doing that 25km loop, any nutritionist who suggests you need re-fueling during an easy 3 hours doesn't know what they're talking about.

prunudo

lgk wrote: »

Who said 3 hours? If we're still talking about doing that 25km loop, any nutritionist who suggests you need re-fueling during an easy 3 hours doesn't know what they're talking about.

Large bottle small glass said the following,

"I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace"

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

lgk

prunudo wrote: »

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

It's all about pacing and heart rate. If you keep out of your anaerobic zone, then every normal person will have more than enough energy within their glycogen stores to manage 2-3 hours without any problem. If you're pushing harder than your fitness levels allow and into anaerobic metabolism, then refueling might give you a psychological boost, but won't do much for energy levels or the lactic acid you're building up.

Large bottle small glass

prunudo wrote: »

Large bottle small glass said the following,

"I'd as mediocre an athlete as you can get and 3hr 50km mtb spin with 1300/1400m fasted isn't an issue. It's hard but gels aren't going to make it easier! Routinely done 150km plus on road at endurance pace"

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something. Just don't think it's a good idea to be advising people that its the norm.

I said why I did, I didn't say you are anyone else should do it in the morning.

In the context of the proposition that there is something unique about mtb riding that needs constant refueling I was pointing out what an average non elite rider can do.

Can we use up with the performance stuff to. With no disrespect I take it OP is plodding around Ballyhoura for a spin and not racing.

When ye ease up on the strawmen, critique the numbers I posted in the context of a 2 hrs mtb spin.

Assuming OP isn't suffering from metabolic disease, is reasonable fit where is his glycogen going?

You may feel like something, you may feel better after it but assuming the above you are not glycogen depleted after 1 or 2hrs.

smacl

prunudo wrote: »

If not refueling in that time frame works for you, then fair play, but the vast majority will need something

Not for a short early morning spin. I'd often cycle up to three rock mast, the Hellfire club or similar first thing in the morning before work for a mooch around the trails and have never had an issue with fuel. Main reason for not eating beforehand is the short time window in which to get out and back for work. To be fair, I've no shortage of excess calories hanging around my midriff and am going at a pretty lamentable pace, but lack of food has never been an issue.

Could be an issue if you're lean and have a carefully regulated diet, but I'd guess most people wouldn't have any problem.

Tenzor07

lgk wrote: »

It's all about pacing and heart rate. If you keep out of your anaerobic zone, then every normal person will have more than enough energy within their glycogen stores to manage 2-3 hours without any problem. If you're pushing harder than your fitness levels allow and into anaerobic metabolism, then refueling might give you a psychological boost, but won't do much for energy levels or the lactic acid you're building up.

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.


However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

prunudo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.


However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

I was starting to wonder was I doing it all wrong, my heart rate can get as high in the decents as it can on a hard climb.

Tenzor07

prunudo wrote: »

I was starting to wonder was I doing it all wrong, my heart rate can get as high in the decents as it can on a hard climb.

Of course, unless it's a smooth enough downhill trall then you're dealing with rocks, roots, obstacles and sudden changes in terrain, as well as getting back up to speed after taking a sharp corner, and keeping a 13kg or so bike in line, plenty to get the HR out of the aerobic zone...

saccades

Oats for brekky.
A flap jack to nibble during the spin.
A couple of gels for those times when i descend the wrong side of lugnaquilla.

On a big spin?

Oats for brekky.
Flapjack every hour.
Mouthful or two of bombay mix when I'm tired of sweet stuff.
High5 or similar with isotonic mix, 500ml plus per hour as I'm a sweaty sod.
Caffeine.

Pots of rice with a dollop of jam through the night, it`s less energy releasing but soothing on the stomach plus rice ****s are less effort than most others.

Ignore bread and protein (like burgers and pizzas), too much effort to digest, think of them as the prize at the end.

Large bottle small glass

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Of course, unless it's a smooth enough downhill trall then you're dealing with rocks, roots, obstacles and sudden changes in terrain, as well as getting back up to speed after taking a sharp corner, and keeping a 13kg or so bike in line, plenty to get the HR out of the aerobic zone...

That all very interesting but what happens the 2000-2500 cals of glycogen in a 25km 2hr spin?

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2016/09/do-blood-glucose-levels-affect-hunger.html?m=1

You might feel like food, it might give you a boost but there probably is no energy crisis.

lgk

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

I've no doubts many posters here have lots more experience than me. I don't know what your understanding of biology and sports science are, I'm guessing not much.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.

I don't do much road biking, but it's just as easy go into the red and maintain it on a road bike if you want.

Who needs a power meter? Power output is meaningless here. Heart rate watches are cheap, and with even without one it's easy enough to gauge breathing and your own heart rate.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

I must be doing something wrong, I've never managed to burn anywhere near 2,000 calories on a 25km MTB spin. The guys in the Olympics aren't burning through the cals at that rate.

steamsey

I've rarely seen any agreement on nutrition in any context.

My advice is water, water and more water. Start getting well hydrated the day before. I don't use gels etc - they don't agree with me but obviously there is a huge market for them.

Glad I read this thread - didn't realise a banana skin took 2 years to decompose. Good to know.

Lemming

lgk wrote: »

I don't do much road biking, but it's just as easy go into the red and maintain it on a road bike if you want.

And you've missed what he was saying.

The experience of "going into the red" in both disciplines places different demands on the rider, with some obvious cross-over at points, so you aren't comparing like with like as there isn't really any equivalence other than you are on a bicycle. Tell me, which is harder? Rugby, GAA, or Soccer? Other than being ball sports; you can't make much equivalence (or convincingly definitive equivalence at any rate).

Tenzor07

steamsey wrote: »

I've rarely seen any agreement on nutrition in any context.
My advice is water, water and more water. Start getting well hydrated the day before. I don't use gels etc - they don't agree with me but obviously there is a huge market for them..

Ha! True, sure everyone is an expert!

Bottom line is I wouldn't advise anyone to go for a 25km/3 hour off-road MTB spin without some food in there bellies, some Banana's and oatey type bars in there back pockets...

Gels are for racing only, or if you have gone out on a spin with someone who had no brekky and has no food with them so got the knock and need carbs quick! :pac:

Lemming

My own opinion (HAH!) on this subject is to experiment with what works for you. Everyone is different and there is plenty of information, receipes and programmes to try. Find something that your body agrees with and build around it; maybe have a word with a sports nutritionist or some such if you are particularly inclined or you are looking to find those ever-increasingly elusive 'marginal gains' with a view to serious competition.

Enduro

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't know what your experience of MTB'ing is, i'm guessing not as much as a lot of MTB'ers on here...

MTB Off road spins aren't like road biking, where it's possible to keep in the Aerobic zone much easier and train within a certain power band if you have a PM.


However, MTB Offroad spins require short and longer bursts of energy into a high heart rate zone, and uses your upper body more than road biking, i.e. clearing obstacles, technical terrain, short sharp kickers up a steep hillside or single track, more drag on heavier tyres with a heavier bicycle whilst climbing means it can be very difficult to keep a low HR unless on smoother more gradual fireroads etc... If you look at the power read out of a MTB'er it's a lot like the terrain of a mountain range, plenty of peaks and dips...

Oh FFS. You're fooling yourself. MTBing is not some uniquely arduous sport that requires you to eat more. I have competed in many MTB races over the years (never mind spins with breaks whenever anyone feels like it, or to let the group reform), and have eaten exactly nothing during the races. I've one or two category podiums to show for that, which isn't bad considering its not my first sport by a long shot (Just the most fun!), and especially not bad when apparently it should be impossible to even get around without stuffing myself.

lgk is spot on here with the basic science. I've no problem with people thinking they have a dependency on "needing" to eat on spins. Most probably though that is a psychological need rather than a physical one.

Tenzor07

Enduro wrote: »

Oh FFS. You're fooling yourself. MTBing is not some uniquely arduous sport that requires you to eat more. .

I expressed my opinion based on my own experiences, just like the majority of average Joe's I won't be going out for a spin without food in my stomach and back pocket.

We can't all train ourselves over the years to be like a Camel when it comes to food, the likes of yourself who could probably survive for months on a desert Island and not crave food even once!