No Plastic campaign

Sam Russell · 15-04-2019 5:34pm

The Satanist wrote: »

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

Glass bottles could be reused, and used to be. The problem is that bottles are no longer generic. Also, most glass containers originate from outside the state.

When milk bottles were in daily use, they were delivered to your door, and the empties were collected. washed and reused. The dairy asked that they be rinsed and returned so that cleaning was easy. Bottles would average over 100 journeys. Supermarkets refused to use glass because of fears of claims due to breakages causing injury. This caused the demise of the milk bottle.

Second problem is that jam jars are all different sizes. They used all to be one pound, but the have shrunk to 12 ounces, and less. Honey jars are smaller because honey is denser. Also, they are shaped to identify the brand.

Recycling bottles is worthwhile because it saves energy, but the bottles must be separated by colour. Some recycled glass is necessary to make new glass, and the higher glass content the cheaper the glass manufacturing is.

Currently, there is no glass manufacturing plants in Ireland, although Quinn glass had a plant in NI.

Sam Russell · 15-04-2019 5:45pm

Mod: Some posts deleted.

Please do not troll, it is not appreciated.

Del.Monte · 15-04-2019 7:26pm

The Satanist wrote: »

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

They used to be. Time was that it was hard to buy items like bottles of milk without returning an empty one - ditto with milk deliveries. As for deposit schemes - anybody in Ireland over the age of 40/50 would have grown up with them. Plastic in many forms such as drinks containers needs to be banned outright.

two wheels good · 16-04-2019 11:35am

The OP has been deleted! Was that really necessary? A few carefully deployed asterisks would have worked.

Apart from any notion of freedom of speech...
The pettiness and small-minded thinking expressed in the post demonstrates that a section of the public cannot be relied-upon to respond
to the crisis of plastic waste.
Govt legislation is essential. Although I think the EU may be the best hope for that.

Sam Russell · 16-04-2019 1:42pm

two wheels good wrote: »

The OP has been deleted! Was that really necessary? A few carefully deployed asterisks would have worked.

Apart from any notion of freedom of speech...
The pettiness and small-minded thinking expressed in the post demonstrates that a section of the public cannot be relied-upon to respond
to the crisis of plastic waste.
Govt legislation is essential. Although I think the EU may be the best hope for that.

Sorry if I appear heavy handed.

It is not intended to be an attack on free speech, but just an attempt at controlling tone and trolling. The alternative would be to lock the thread or delete the thread altogether. Now that might be an attack on those posters who have contributed to the thread.

Nikki Sixx · 17-04-2019 6:24am

I think people misunderstood me. If you want to recycle do it quietly and I’ve no problem with that. Just like you wouldn’t ram your religious views down somebody throat, don’t ram your views on plastic down somebody’s throat.

SozBbz · 17-04-2019 11:26am

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

I think people misunderstood me. If you want to recycle do it quietly and I’ve no problem with that. Just like you wouldn’t ram your religious views down somebody throat, don’t ram your views on plastic down somebody’s throat.

Thats a totally different scenario. A persons religious beliefs are not dependent on everyone around them also being religious.

It is incumbent on us all to assess the damage we as a people are doing to our planet. Raising awareness of how damaging seemingly innocuous products can be is really important to make change happen. For example, lots of people now use keep cups as opposed to single use takeaway coffee cups. They're a particularly good example as a lot of people assumed they were made of paper and therefore recyclable - it took people talking about the environmental impact to change behaviors.

Does it just suit you better to bury your head in the sand? Is it inconvenient to hear the damage your lifestyle choices does to the planet?

Sam Russell · 17-04-2019 12:47pm

Sixty years ago, fruit and vegetables were distributed in wooden boxes (called bushels) and these were returned for reuse. Bananas were shipped in wooden coffins and returned for reuse. Milk was delivered in glass bottles that were returned for reuse. Potatoes were distributed in hessian sacks. Oranges were shipped in orange boxes which were made of light timber and were not reused, but made great firewood. A lot of fruit and vegetables were locally sourced.

Today, vegetables are packed in poly bags in bigger plastic bags. Oranges are distributed in plastic string bags in cardboard boxes. Potatoes in paper bags that include plastic that makes the packaging non-recyclable. Milk comes in tetrapak or poly bottles. Bananas now ship in cardboard coffins that are not returned, but lots of poly sheets are part of the package. Recently, there has been a move away from polystyrene which is very hard to do anything with as far as recycling is concerned. Tetrapak cartons are also hard to deal with.

Modern packages are designed for the purposes of retail shops - basically so that they do not sell by weight but by item. It is mainly driven by supermarkets.

It would help if there were enforced standards for packaging that made recycling easy. We need to rethink all of this, because plastic waste is killing the planet.

whiskeyman · 17-04-2019 12:51pm

Enforcement is the only way.
The consumer tries to flex their muscle, but a lot of the results are 'token' efforts like plastic straws being banned.
I'm doing research in this area, and the 'concern - behaviour gap' is very evident. We all like to think we'll make a difference, but when it comes to our shopping behaviour, most of us don't practice as we preach. Consumers need legislation to come in to force manufactures / retailers to change.
We needed it for the plastic bag tax and it worked.

Another very interesting debate in this area of the 'backlash on plastics' is the area of foodwaste. There are arguments that plastic packaging help in reducing food waste, which is itself potentially a bigger environmental issue than that of plastic waste.

Sam Russell · 17-04-2019 12:53pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

Enforcement is the only way.
The consumer tries to flex their muscle, but a lot of the results are 'token' efforts like plastic straws being banned.
I'm doing research in this area, and the 'concern - behaviour gap' is very evident. We all like to think we'll make a difference, but when it comes to our shopping behaviour, most of us don't practice as we preach. Consumers need legislation to come in to force manufactures / retailers to change.
We needed it for the plastic bag tax and it worked.

Another very interesting debate in this area of the 'backlash on plastics' is the area of foodwaste. There are arguments that plastic packaging help in reducing food waste, which is itself potentially a bigger environmental issue than that of plastic waste.

I think the 'Buy one get one free' is a major problem.

whiskeyman · 17-04-2019 1:24pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the 'Buy one get one free' is a major problem.

Definitely a problem for perishable goods.
I reckon many of us don't plan ahead on what to do with the 'extra' items, and should freeze where possible or store better (cook up and freeze etc...).

It's such a disposable society we live in, from clothes, electronics and food.

Tell me how · 17-04-2019 5:09pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

Definitely a problem for perishable goods.
I reckon many of us don't plan ahead on what to do with the 'extra' items, and should freeze where possible or store better (cook up and freeze etc...).

It's such a disposable society we live in, from clothes, electronics and food.

I was thinking recently about the advantages of bulk cooking/food preparation.
Health Benefits:
Better portion control. No snacking while waiting for dinner to cook.

Time Benefits:
Less work mid week, just defrost/heat.
Less time spent preparing lunches.

Finance Benefit:
More cost effective.

Environmental Benefit:
Less waste.

And yet, most people don't do it, me included. Really is something I must get in to doing.

two wheels good · 17-04-2019 6:12pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

I think people misunderstood me. If you want to recycle do it quietly and I’ve no problem with that. Just like you wouldn’t ram your religious views down somebody throat, don’t ram your views on plastic down somebody’s throat.

Because it's a crisis and people aren't aware how grave it is.
People need to be informed, educated, encouraged to act. Even coerced to act. Including the politicians.

Every week I read some new article - in a daily newspaper, not an academic journal - about plastic contaminating the oceans, being found in humans, in the food chain, in bottled water, in soil samples, on remote hill-tops carried there by the wind. It will poison us! It probably is poisoning us. Not to mention the danger to animals.

I'm sorry if you're bored of people banging-on about plastics. It has to be done.
In a way I can understand apathy stopping someone taking action but complaining that other people are taking action? Well, that's not rational or in your own self-interests.

In addition:
As for recycling: Recycling on its own is an inadequate response.
The mantra is "Reduce , Re-use, Recycle". The first two 'R's being of greater benefit. Many people are far too complacent thinking their recycling is good enough. It's not.

BTW. Well done for one of the the most viewed threads in the forum.

Sam Russell · 17-04-2019 6:23pm

two wheels good wrote: »

Because it's a crisis and people aren't aware how grave it is.
People need to be informed, educated, encouraged to act. Even coerced to act. Including the politicians.

Every week I read some new article - in a daily newspaper, not an academic journal - about plastic contaminating the oceans, being found in humans, in the food chain, in bottled water, in soil samples, on remote hill-tops carried there by the wind. It will poison us! It probably is poisoning us. Not to mention the danger to animals.

I'm sorry if you're bored of people banging-on about plastics. It has to be done.
In a way I can understand apathy stopping someone taking action but complaining that other people are taking action? Well, that's not rational or in your own self-interests.

In addition:
As for recycling: Recycling on its own is an inadequate response.
The mantra is "Reduce , Re-use, Recycle". The first two 'R's being of greater benefit. Many people are far too complacent thinking their recycling is good enough. It's not.

BTW. Well done for one of the the most viewed threads in the forum.

Actually, the first R is REFUSE, then reduce, re-use.

Refuse the plastic in the first place. Do not buy products wrapped in plastic.

Reduce the use of plastic. It is not needed for most applications. Why is a six pack of beer wrapped with a piece is string like plastic, and then shrink wrapped in plastic?

Re-use the packaging - but that is hard because there is so much of it. There are only so many plastic bottles one can use.

Recycle - but that is difficult because manufacturers mix plastics so that they cannot be recycled. e.g. Laminated plastics with foil on one side are not recycled - (crisp packets).

We need to get the producers to re-think their packaging. A new basic approach - it has worked with a lot of products like Easter eggs, and TVs.

More needs to be done.

skallywag · 17-04-2019 6:27pm

The big issue in my opinion is single use plastic which gets discarded immediately, such as packaging, one time use plastic cups, PET bottles, etc. Plastic itself is a fantastic material in that it is light, strong and cheap to produce. The world we live in today would not be the same place if we did not have thermoplastic technology. Nearly every single thing that we use in our modern everyday lives has plastic in it. There is no escaping that.

I was in China recently at a factory where they use injection molding to make plastic products (not single use), and it warmed my heart to see there was no single use plastic cups beside the drinking water dispensers, rather every staff member had their water bottle there. It struck a chord with me. A country like China seems much further ahead of us on such topics, whereas popular opinion would tell you that China is a big polluter, etc.

John_Rambo · 18-04-2019 7:51pm

two wheels good wrote: »

I'll join a beach clean-up but can I be taught instead of schooled. I think I've mastered the basics of picking things up so I've a head start.

Hi two wheels good, my post wasn't directed at you, nor did I quote you. It was aimed at the OP that thinks people avoiding plastic are bandwagoning. Further more, I meant schooled regarding the damage that single use plastic is causing as in he'll see it first hand, I've every confidence you'd be capable of picking things up.

two wheels good wrote: »

Point me at a website please. Cork/West Cork area

http://cleancoasts.org/ If you google individual beaches close to you with "cleanup" you should get more hits like The Myrtleville Coastal Action Group. There's a lot of Facebook groups too.

NIMAN · 18-04-2019 7:54pm

Tell me how wrote: »

I was thinking recently about the advantages of bulk cooking/food preparation.
Health Benefits:
Better portion control. No snacking while waiting for dinner to cook.

Time Benefits:
Less work mid week, just defrost/heat.
Less time spent preparing lunches.

Finance Benefit:
More cost effective.

Environmental Benefit:
Less waste.

And yet, most people don't do it, me included. Really is something I must get in to doing.

Unfortunately we live in a world were people want convenience.

It's the number 1 priority for a lot of people.

my3cents · 18-04-2019 8:19pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Hi two wheels good, my post wasn't directed at you, nor did I quote you. It was aimed at the OP that thinks people avoiding plastic are bandwagoning. Further more, I meant schooled regarding the damage that single use plastic is causing as in he'll see it first hand, I've every confidence you'd be capable of picking things up.

http://cleancoasts.org/ If you google individual beaches close to you with "cleanup" you should get more hits like The Myrtleville Coastal Action Group. There's a lot of Facebook groups too.

Our little beach does it all on the quite. There is a spot just off the main road which isn't easy to see that the local lad from the council will take any rubbish collected up and left there from the beach. Make it public and the world and his wife would be dumping their rubbish there.

If that fails another local has permission from the council to take collected beach rubbish into the local recycling centre for free.

John_Rambo · 18-04-2019 8:26pm

my3cents wrote: »

Our little beach does it all on the quite. There is a spot just off the main road which isn't easy to see that the local lad from the council will take any rubbish collected up and left there from the beach. Make it public and the world and his wife would be dumping their rubbish there.

Fair enough. Local fly tipping and dumping is a huge problem in certain areas, our beach doesn't suffer too much from it. Best not to make it public it if you have that sort of stuff going on in the area. Most of the stuff collected by us is washed up on the high tide, particularly on storm surges.

my3cents wrote: »

If that fails another local has permission from the council to take collected beach rubbish into the local recycling centre for free.

That's the case on all beach clean ups. Usually the council will send someone down to pick up all that's collected.

Wanderer78 · 19-04-2019 7:34am

skallywag wrote:

I was in China recently at a factory where they use injection molding to make plastic products (not single use), and it warmed my heart to see there was no single use plastic cups beside the drinking water dispensers, rather every staff member had their water bottle there. It struck a chord with me. A country like China seems much further ahead of us on such topics, whereas popular opinion would tell you that China is a big polluter, etc.

As a whole, I'd imagine China probably is one of the world's largest polluters due to its economic setup, but it does sound like they're taking it seriously, with major investments in renewables

two wheels good · 19-04-2019 10:46am

John_Rambo wrote: »

Hi two wheels good, my post wasn't directed at you, nor did I quote you. It was aimed at the OP that thinks people avoiding plastic are bandwagoning. Further more, I meant schooled regarding the damage that single use plastic is causing as in he'll see it first hand, I've every confidence you'd be capable of picking things up.

http://cleancoasts.org/ If you google individual beaches close to you with "cleanup" you should get more hits like The Myrtleville Coastal Action Group. There's a lot of Facebook groups too.

I realise that. Just my gentle ribbing at the adoption of americianisms and my attempt at humour.
Will investigate that website. Cleanups are very satisfying activities - and there are usually free biscuits provided.

two wheels good · 19-04-2019 11:04am

People point the finger of blame at China for environmental damage and use it as an excuse for inaction. But they fail to acknowledge that a significant part of China's carbon footprint is producing consumer goods for consumers elsewhere. So China's carbon footprint must be shared, to some degree, with western consumers too.

Del.Monte · 19-04-2019 1:40pm

two wheels good wrote: »

People point the finger of blame at China for environmental damage and use it as an excuse for inaction. But they fail to acknowledge that a significant part of China's carbon footprint is producing consumer goods for consumers elsewhere. So China's carbon footprint must be shared, to some degree, with western consumers too.

And the first step is to stop buying € shop rubbish that often breaks before it leaves its excessive packaging.

27-04-2019 8:36pm

It's a waste of time and like trying to hold back the tide dealing with this issue.

Not alone is there the throwaway plastic problem, there's also the plastic coming off the tyres of your car as they wear down. Also micro-plastics come off your clothes as they are washed in washing machines. How do you stop these cases?

The future is to avoid seafood altogether or farm seafood in labs that are known to be plastic free.

Sam Russell · 27-04-2019 8:42pm

salonfire wrote: »

It's a waste of time and like trying to hold back the tide dealing with this issue.

Not alone is there the throwaway plastic problem, there's also the plastic coming off the tyres of your car as they wear down. Also micro-plastics come off your clothes as they are washed in washing machines. How do you stop these cases?

The future is to avoid seafood altogether or farm seafood in labs that are known to be plastic free.

Sounds like a defeatist approach.

First step - refuse the plastic - dn't buy products wrapped in platic or single use plastic.
2nd Step - reduce the use of plastic.

Those two steps would help.

27-04-2019 8:59pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sounds like a defeatist approach.

First step - refuse the plastic - dn't buy products wrapped in platic or single use plastic.
2nd Step - reduce the use of plastic.

Those two steps would help.

More of a realism approach I would have thought.

I agree with what you are saying but I read elsewhere about the plastic that's now embedded in the rubber of car tyres and our clothes.

Once I heard about the plastic run-off from these sources, I ask myself how can we stop the pollution.

Del.Monte · 27-04-2019 10:04pm

salonfire wrote: »

It's a waste of time and like trying to hold back the tide dealing with this issue.

Not alone is there the throwaway plastic problem, there's also the plastic coming off the tyres of your car as they wear down. Also micro-plastics come off your clothes as they are washed in washing machines. How do you stop these cases?

The future is to avoid seafood altogether or farm seafood in labs that are known to be plastic free.

That's right, we should only eat food produced in labs and and breath air from cylinders. This sort of defeatist attitude sucks.

Wanderer78 · 28-04-2019 6:45am

salonfire wrote:

Once I heard about the plastic run-off from these sources, I ask myself how can we stop the pollution.

Pressurise our manufacturing and production systems to come up with alternative materials which are not as harmful

28-04-2019 4:45pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Pressurise our manufacturing and production systems to come up with alternative materials which are not as harmful

Manufacture of car tyres is driven by safety.

If plastic was found to be the best compound to use, then that's what will be used.

If this alternative material was better/safer than plastic, it would have been used already

Sam Russell · 28-04-2019 5:47pm

There is no way that plastic can be removed entirely. However, if the use of plastic was reduced by a large percentage, the problems arising from its use would be greatly reduced.

Prediction is that the use of plastic will increase by 40% over the next decade. What is needed is a REDUCTION of plastic use over the next decade. Single use plastic, like cups, bottles, straws, wrappers, etc. should be stopped. Plastic wrappers do keep some foods fresher for longer, but most just keep products together for ease of marketing by supermarkets.

Action is needed now, locally and globally.

Wanderer78 · 28-04-2019 6:25pm

salonfire wrote: »

Manufacture of car tyres is driven by safety.

If plastic was found to be the best compound to use, then that's what will be used.

If this alternative material was better/safer than plastic, it would have been used already

not entirely true, partially of course, strangely enough, just sometimes, profit maximisation is actually the key driver in materials used during manufacture of our goods

8mv · 29-04-2019 12:08am

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no way that plastic can be removed entirely. However, if the use of plastic was reduced by a large percentage, the problems arising from its use would be greatly reduced.

Prediction is that the use of plastic will increase by 40% over the next decade. What is needed is a REDUCTION of plastic use over the next decade. Single use plastic, like cups, bottles, straws, wrappers, etc. should be stopped. Plastic wrappers do keep some foods fresher for longer, but most just keep products together for ease of marketing by supermarkets.

Action is needed now, locally and globally.

Well put, Sam. Plastic is a great material, but must be restricted to long-life multi-use products. I place orders for plastic housings for the company I work for. Our product should last a lifetime if used and maintained correctly, so I feel that the plastic used is being put to good use. However, even though I have pleaded with the Chinese supplier not to, each housing comes wrapped in its own completely superfluous plastic bag - a useless and time-consuming pollutant. We are just a small company, so it's horrifying to think this is being replicated in thousands of bigger companies. I shall keep trying to get the message across.

SozBbz · 29-04-2019 11:20am

One change I've tried to make recently is to try to eliminate polyester from any clothing purchases.

More and more brands are doing sustainable ranges, so if I need something I'm trying to use those ranges first. (H&M Conscious collection, Zara Join Life range etc.)

I'm also trying to be discerning in what new clothes I buy and only shop if I really love something, focusing on quality over quantity and trying to only buy things I'll get lots of wear from.

30-04-2019 8:09am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not entirely true, partially of course, strangely enough, just sometimes, profit maximisation is actually the key driver in materials used during manufacture of our goods

Well of course companies want to be profitable... Not sure what ground breaking concept you think you have just discovered...

That's why car tyres are designed to be as safe as possible regardless of the materials used impact on the environment.

If a company gets a bad reputation for having inferior products, they won't be profitable for long.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 8:14am

my3cents wrote: »

Weren't we one of the first countries to ban free plastic carrier bags?

No we just did it earlier than the UK. They were long gone in quite a few continental countries at that stage

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 8:20am

The biggest sources of plastics could be easily tackled - a lot of it is totally unnecessary. There are other areas where it's harder to avoid but we should be starting by banning the things that would make very little difference and there are loads of these.

Also where plastics are used, they should be more easily recyclable. The volume of multilayer and soft plastics being used is ludicrous.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 8:47am

Anteayer wrote: »

The biggest sources of plastics could be easily tackled - a lot of it is totally unnecessary. There are other areas where it's harder to avoid but we should be starting by banning the things that would make very little difference and there are loads of these.

Also where plastics are used, they should be more easily recyclable. The volume of multilayer and soft plastics being used is ludicrous.

Can you give examples of these?
I'm not disagreeing with you as such but for the most part, someone has made a decision to use a material which is still costing them money so they are doing it for some reason.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:05am

A lot of them are deciding to use them primarily for visual marketing or for convenience of handling.

There are endless examples:

Flow pack plastic multipacks. These are all over supermarkets.
Use of soft plastic packs for things like pasta can be replaced with paper (manufacturers of some brands already do. Notably the Italian ones).
Endless use of plastic for fruit and vegetables. Despite all sorts of promises it seems to have actually become worse. None of this is necessary. You can pack fruit in paper / cardboard or not at all.

Items that are all individually packed : various biscuits and so on. These could surely at least move to paper or not packaging at all.

Confectionary in general could be wrapped in paper. It's not long ago Cadburys for example made all their bars wrapped in paper and foil. That was replaced with plastic only a few years ago when Mondelez took over.

Loads of products use shrink wrapped plastic labels which look slicker than paper stickers but are adding to recycling difficulties as they can't be easily separated.

Milk being packed in plastic rather than tetrapak. It's not that many years ago most of us has milk delivered in glass bottles that were collected and rewashed. It only started to fade away in the 1990s

If you walk around any supermarket there are endless examples of plastic where it's totally unnecessary.

There's lots of potential for use of glass rather than plastic bottles too.

Loads of things could be improved without actually much impact at all on quality of life or convenience for customers.

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 9:06am

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you give examples of these?
I'm not disagreeing with you as such but for the most part, someone has made a decision to use a material which is still costing them money so they are doing it for some reason.

Tetra-pak milk cartons. Single use coffee cups. Plastic straws. Polystyrene packing where cardboard is just as good. Foil/plastic wrappers as used in crisp packets. Multi plastic - that is there is recycle and non recycle plastics combined.

Lots of examples.

The rubbish wheelie bins are made of heavy durable plastic and are a good example of a good use of plastic. I cannot think of a better material for them. Wood? Steel? Aluminium? Cardboard? I don't think so.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:10am

What annoys me is that all the focus is put on consumers somehow being able to capture and recycle this junk and very little pressure is put on industry and retail to use alternative materials or avoid using excessive packaging.

Consumers aren't able to capture and divert all this waste. It has to be controlled at manufacturing level and where plastics are used they need to be easily recyclable. The multi layers of different plastics and most of the soft plastics need to disappear.

Ireland's not only managing not to reduce plastic waste we are generating more per capita than any other EU country which is an absolute disgrace.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 9:17am

Anteayer wrote: »

A lot of them are deciding to use them primarily for visual marketing or for convenience of handling.

There are endless examples:

If you walk around any supermarket there are endless examples of plastic where it's totally unnecessary.

Exactly.
We might view these as totally unnecessary but that is a one view. If legislation was to come in banning all such packaging the industry would react very strongly against it as they would say their brand was being severely undermined. They would argue that preservation and convenience of handling lead to less waste and therefore should be allowed.

Maybe it could happen, cigarette companies had the same argument when legislation was brought in on how their packages looked and that happened but it was one sector of industry and a very harmful product. There were less willing to stand up for them.

I'd like to see people having and bringing their own reusable bread bags to shops instead of using those plastic ones at the bread counter. Same with fruit and vegetables.

I'd be in favour of a €1 surcharge on disposable coffee cups. Keep cup or no cup for takeaways.

They cost more to produce, but are still advantageous if used correctly.

Keep Cup vs Disposable

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:39am

To be quite honest if any big brand legally challenges reduction of packaging legislation they would be facing INCREDIBLY bad PR and probably irreparable damage and deservedly so.

The cigarette lobby lost their argument but it also wasn't comparable. The only proposal being made is to ban certain packaging materials. This has no impact on their ability to advertise and there are plenty of items banned for environmental or health reasons already.

I don't really see where there would be a legal case to be argued

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 9:44am

Anteayer wrote: »

To be quite honest if any big brand legally challenges reduction of packaging legislation they would be facing INCREDIBLY bad PR and probably irreparable damage and deservedly so.

I think you wayyyyyyyyyyy underestimate just what goes in in enacting legislation.

They would not legally challenge maybe but lobby heavily against it. Many brands are owned by corporations such as Nestle, P&G, Coca-Cola etc. They are vastly experienced in lobbying against prohibitive laws which may harm their business.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:48am

I think you're jumping the gun with imaginary legal challenges.
It's completely reasonable and possible to implement a ban for environmental reasons. It would probably be best done at EU level though to ensure it actually works smoothly.

There's already moves a foot do exactly that. The European Commission committed to banning non recyclable plastic from packaging and it's been voted heavily in favour of by the parliament.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/efe/content/european-parliament-votes-single-use-plastics-ban_en

That will be implemented by 2021.

Ultimately environmental and recycling costs have to be met somewhere and as it stands that financial burden is not being met by producers. They are quite literally engaged in environmental dumping.

Also this isn't and the EU isn't Washington DC. While those companies may lobby, there's a much more significant green movement in Europe and politicians genuinely aren't as beholden to big money, due to how things are generally structured in most countries.

Sadly the US Supreme Court has unpicked a lot of the sane regulation of lobbying activities and campaign financing - hence the US has become more and more blatantly driven by lobbyists.

The same isn't true in Europe and in Ireland it's actually trended the other direction with increasingly tough regulation of lobbying and financing of politics.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 10:00am

Anteayer wrote: »

I think you're jumping the gun with imaginary legal challenges.
It's completely reasonable and possible to implement a ban for environmental reasons. It would probably be best done at EU level though to ensure it actually works smoothly.

There's already moves a foot do exactly that. The European Commission committed to banning non recyclable plastic from packaging and it's been voted heavily in favour of by the parliament.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/efe/content/european-parliament-votes-single-use-plastics-ban_en

That will be implemented by 2021.

Ultimately environmental and recycling costs have to be met somewhere and as it stands that financial burden is not being met by producers. They are quite literally engaged in environmental dumping.

I never mentioned legal challenges.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 10:09am

Tell me how wrote: »

I never mentioned legal challenges.

You referenced the tobacco industry on plain packaging legislation. That was a lot more than a lobbying effort. There was significant legal action taken (mostly unsuccessfully) in Australia, Ireland and several other jurisdictions.

The argument about undermining branding was made in court more than just through lobbying

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 4:11pm

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 4:15pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

Some vendors sell these suppliers produce with just labels but in many locations they still are in packaging.

50mm Pink lady apples are often sold in bags of 8.
>50mm are often sold in packs of 4 in cardboard containers with a cellophane wrapper.

Similar with Fyffes, pretty sure I've seen them in open bunches and also in plastic bags.

Edit. You are correct, they do not rely on packaging but still do seem to use it quite a bit.

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 4:20pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Some vendors sell these suppliers produce with just labels but in many locations they still are in packaging.

50mm Pink lady apples are often sold in bags of 8.
>50mm are often sold in packs of 4 in cardboard containers with a cellophane wrapper.

Similar with Fyffes, pretty sure I've seen them in open bunches and also in plastic bags.

That extra packaging is the make life easy for supermarkets and stock control. Also to reduce spoilage and increase shelf life. Lidl sell organic bananas with a paper band around them to distinguish normal bananas It can be done.

emo72 · 30-04-2019 4:24pm

Just want to jump in lads and ask who is the spawn of Satan that decided to put microplastics into cosmetics? Who created microplastics full stop? If ever there was an invention that absolutely nobody wanted or needed, that's the one. There will be a documentary made about this person someday.

No Plastic campaign

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