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N25 - Carrigtwohill to Midleton [route options published]

135

Comments

  • #102
    FGR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭FGR


    marno21 wrote: »
    Three of the least important sections for upgrading.

    Three of the least important sections but also, probably, the cheapest.

    It's one major downside to not having a front bench minister in the Waterford or East Cork constituencies. And it doesn't look like we'll have one for time to come.

    I've often wondered about the bypassing of Castlemartyr or Killeagh - is it being put back so much as to prevent further congestion at Lakeview? There are mornings where there's miles of traffic on the east-west route. It could only be considerably worse if they progressed those bypasses without dealing with that disaster and, of course, Dunkettle.

    Plus - the decision to work on the N24 + M8 and sending Rosslare-Cork traffic that way makes sense from a political perspective as it benefits the people of Limerick a huge amount over an M25; a county which had prominent influence from various TDs/Ministers. Limerick will become the second best connected city in Ireland after Dublin. Again another problem with the Waterford representation sadly.


  • #103
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    marno21 wrote: »
    However, I can see a lot of locals being peeved at this money being spent here as the benefits will not be felt for the vast majority of people who interact with this stretch of road.

    It's worse for locals because this next piece of work will actively increase traffic on the N25. Long-term they hope to build a surface mall on the Amgen site and a large number of new houses on the Waterrock SDZ site phases 2 and 3.

    Cork County Council say that the existing Midleton West junction doesn't need to be upgraded to facilitate the Waterrock SDZ, "because it will have such low number of car users".
    They now simultaneously want the N25 Amgen junction opened. The implications are quite clear: the aim is to create and facilitate a new destination for car users just outside the city boundary.

    The Waterrock SDZ is at least a worthy cause: we need housing. And we need serious density along that rail line. But I disagree with an Amgen GSJ to achieve it. I'd rather see a proper Midleton West GSJ instead. If you have a car, you can afford to drive a few km extra to that GSJ. It's 5km between Midleton and Carrigtohill junctions. It's two or three minutes drive. People living inside the area will never opt to use sustainable transport if we always design so that the car always has the shortest possible journey (often shorter than the sustainable users)!

    The surface mall though is unacceptable. An Amgen GSJ to facilitate that is just bonkers stuff: why not dispense with the County Development Plan in its entirety if that's what they're going to do.


  • #104
    niloc1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    marno21 wrote: »
    I'd love to see how that route would work in practice. The Kinsalebeg side is quite a steep drop down to where the N25 is and a dual carriagewya on the Kinsalebeg side would require some serious blasting. There is just about enough room for a basic S2 there and it has to turn 90 degrees at the bridge..................................

    Easiest way to explain.
    East of the roundabout at the end of the bypass is at sea level, the proposal was to put the new bridge straigh across the river to connect to the east bank of the river where the old toll house is, widening the N25 to Kinsalebeg was to be by infilling the to the south of the existing road.
    The proposal provided a more or less straight run at sea level between the two points via a new bridge of adequate width.


  • #105
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,476 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    marno21 wrote: »
    I'd love to see how that route would work in practice. The Kinsalebeg side is quite a steep drop down to where the N25 is and a dual carriagewya on the Kinsalebeg side would require some serious blasting. There is just about enough room for a basic S2 there and it has to turn 90 degrees at the bridge.

    My reading of all this is that TII's plan to build a new road between Cahir and Waterford means Rosslare/Waterford-Cork traffic will be sent via the M8 and N24 when that's done. God knows what the long term plan for the N25 is but the NDP makes for depressing reading for N25 users. Carrigtwohill-Midleton, Waterford-New Ross and Wexford-Rosslare are all that's in there. Three of the least important sections for upgrading.

    The whole Co Wexford part of the N25 has all been replaced and upgraded to various standards (parts of it now twice) since the 1980s/90s. The real problem and priority needs to be section around Dungarvan and also Youghal and Youghal-Midleton. This is by far the most pressing need It's a pretty decent road now from Rosslare to west of Lemybrien- after that is where the concentrated effort needs to be. I don't know how TII can't see this they should be making that point clearly.


  • #106
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,476 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    IIRC the final bit of that upgrade was to be a new bridge over the Blackwater about 400m south of the existing one, to create a straight run from the end of the Youghal Bypass to Kinsalebeg.

    I'd say that will be a massively expensive undertaking. The terrain doesn't lend itself to much else I suppose. Youghal bridge and approach from the Dungarvan side is certainly not ideal but it's not a huge bottleneck either so I think bypassing Killeigh and Castlemartyr would be much more immediate priority (alos busier too).


  • #107
    tonc76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    Easiest way to explain.
    East of the roundabout at the end of the bypass is at sea level, the proposal was to put the new bridge straigh across the river to connect to the east bank of the river where the old toll house is, widening the N25 to Kinsalebeg was to be by infilling the to the south of the existing road.
    The proposal provided a more or less straight run at sea level between the two points via a new bridge of adequate width.

    that's a significant distance to cross .....


  • #108
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    road_high wrote: »
    it's not a huge bottleneck either so I think bypassing Killeigh and Castlemartyr would be much more immediate priority (alos busier too).

    I think - and I could be wrong - the problem is that Youghal Bridge nears end of life soon. That is to say that it has not been designed to last beyond a few years from now. Certainly agree with you that capacity isn't a major issue at present.


  • #109
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,476 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I think - and I could be wrong - the problem is that Youghal Bridge nears end of life soon. That is to say that it has not been designed to last beyond a few years from now. Certainly agree with you that capacity isn't a major issue at present.

    It was built in the mid 60s replacing an old iron bridge (you can see the old toll cottage on the Waterford side). I've not heard anything aboout it near end of life or problems with the structure?
    Sounds like the planned new bridge follows a path more like the old one. If it ever happens that is!


  • #110
    niloc1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    tonc76 wrote: »
    that's a significant distance to cross .....

    About 600m HERE


  • #111
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,476 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    About 600m HERE

    I can't see that happening for decades tbh. I'm sure they'll botch up the existing bridge and keep going!


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  • #112
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    marno21 wrote: »
    Could you printscreen or snipping tool it and pop it up then?

    Would be great to have if you could.


    https://1drv.ms/b/s!Akj3GCKQdHarhYNtUDYYbd7e9x0tAw


    Onedrive Link to a 6mb PDF. Looks half a land bank grab and half Amgen scheme to me. Looking at the timescales is an embarassment.


  • #113
    Hibernicis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Youghal Bridge is totally off topic in a Middleton to Carrigtwohill thread, but seeing as it has been mentioned.......

    The old bridge was in dire condition by the mid 50s. So bad was its state that barrels were placed down the centre to force traffic to weave from side to side in an effort to enforce the 5MPH speed limit (yes, 5MPH). The County Councils responsible started planning a replacement in the early 50s and work commenced in 1960. The bridge was opened on 23rd January 1963 by Donagh O’Malley, then a Parliamentary Secretary (Minister of State) because the Minister for Local Government, Neil Blaney, was indisposed.

    This video from the RTE Archives is purest 24 karat gold. It shows the new bridge, the old bridge and the tar barrels.

    In this anachronistic video the merits or otherwise of demolishing the old bridge are discussed.

    You will see from tonc76's satellite image that the old bridge crossed the Waterford/Cork County boundary. In those pre NRA/TII days, responsibility for national roads fell to the County Council where the road was located. This resulted in anomalies where a stretch of highway came to an abrupt end at the county boundary and it met a boreen on the other side. In the case of a bridge project, where you couldn't have two different authorities each building its own half of the bridge and hopefully meeting in the middle, the convention as that the larger Council (in this case Cork) took responsibility. This resulted in an anomoly because the recommendation was that the best (and cheapest) location for the new bridge was entirely in County Waterford. It took the Waterford crowd years to recover from the ignominy of having CCC build a bridge which was located 100% in County Waterford. And to add insult to injury the main contractor was Murphy Brothers, a Cork based company.

    When you look at this you realise how much things actually have improved over the last 50 years.

    Not sure where the notion that the current bridge was designed to "expire" in the next few years, sounds pretty unlikely tbh.


  • #114
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Hibernicis wrote: »
    Not sure where the notion that the current bridge was designed to "expire" in the next few years, sounds pretty unlikely tbh.

    Pretty certain I read it on Boards infra. forum to be honest.
    I'm happy to say that I have no further detail than that though - certainly nothing official.

    As I said, I don't think I have seen congestion at this point in the route, ever. I'm not there daily but I'm there often enough.


  • #115
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    https://1drv.ms/b/s!Akj3GCKQdHarhYNtUDYYbd7e9x0tAw


    Onedrive Link to a 6mb PDF. Looks half a land bank grab and half Amgen scheme to me. Looking at the timescales is an embarassment.

    Thanks for this.
    TWO new junctions/interchanges in this design: they certainly were ambitious!

    That's kind of where we were in 2006 wasn't it, it was new roads and development everywhere.


  • #116
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.n25carrigtohillmidleton.ie/

    Website scheme launched. Route options public consultation in Q4 2020.


  • #117
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Interesting that their "study area" box goes quite a way to the east of Midleton.


  • #118
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep.

    And I know we've been through this loads of different times, but for me the biggest problems are East of Midleton, where it's also 100kmh, but there's no overtaking lane, there's a lot of houses and the hard shoulders are quite variable in width/quality. The section West of Midleton is quite well structured by comparison.

    To me this just looks like a housing development facilitation effort.


  • #119
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yup, Lakeview roundabout to Youghal is needed far more than this scheme is. I can see this one getting canned in the inevitable post-Covid-cull-of-non-vital-stuff.


  • #120
    Hibernicis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Yup, Lakeview roundabout to Youghal is needed far more than this scheme is. I can see this one getting canned in the inevitable post-Covid-cull-of-non-vital-stuff.

    Looks like a sledge hammer to crack a nut. All that palaver and expense for 7 or 8 km of dual carriageway. Can’t see why they don’t just grade separate the 3 or 4 junctions and put Stretches of local road running parallel where required to service the few isolated houses which currently enjoy direct access along the route.

    Interesting that this surfaces a few weeks before the Greens decimate the country’s road plans and TII’s road infrastructure remit is limited to filling potholes with spadefuls for tarmac. Pretty typical of TII and CCC in particular.


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  • #121
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Hibernicis wrote: »
    Looks like a sledge hammer to crack a nut. All that palaver and expense for 7 or 8 km of dual carriageway. Can’t see why they don’t just grade separate the 3 or 4 junctions and put Stretches of local road running parallel where required to service the few isolated houses which currently enjoy direct access along the route.

    That's what they will do. We're at the "assess all options" stage now, which will take 6 months.

    It'll end up being a new GSJ, closure of all direct accesses, parallel route for local traffic in certain places and hopefully motorway reclassification.
    Hibernicis wrote: »
    Interesting that this surfaces a few weeks before the Greens decimate the country’s road plans and TII’s road infrastructure remit is limited to filling potholes with spadefuls for tarmac. Pretty typical of TII and CCC in particular.

    This has been in the works since 2019.


  • #122
    niloc1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killeagh plus a grade seperated junction or flyover, a la N40, at the Lakeview Roundabout.
    For between Carrigtwohill and Midleton East ( Jct. 4 & 5) a more cost effective option could be a third lane each way similar to that between Jct. 8 & 9 on the M8


  • #123
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killeagh plus a grade seperated junction or flyover, a la N40, at the Lakeview Roundabout.
    For between Carrigtwohill and Midleton East ( Jct. 4 & 5) a more cost effective option could be a third lane each way similar to that between Jct. 8 & 9 on the M8

    A far easier solution would be a new motorway from Carrigtwohill to the Youghal bypass incorporating upgrade of Carrigtwohill-Midleton in conjunction with a Lakeview flyover and new section from Midleton-Youghal. Proper, fit for purpose road between the Waterford border and Cork City.

    Instead this is all being done in an ad hoc manner with no apparent plan for how Lakeview will be dealt with in the future and a partial upgrade of road between Carrigtwohill and Midleton which most road users won't even notice happening let alone benefit from it. Someone driving from Killeagh to Cork won't notice any benefits with this plan with the exception of reduced accidents.

    The N25 seems to have been relegated to secondary priority by everyone involved which is a shame.


  • #124
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    But apart from a few local accesses, there isn't a massive accident rate on this road as far as I know. The south ring is far, far, far worse and in all my year and a half driving from Cobh to Cork at rush hour there has only been a couple of bad accidents that I'm aware of.

    Lakeview is easier to sort than it looks. Demolish those houses, make a flyover over the roundabout with no entry/exit and put a GSJ a kilometer east linking up to the Whitegate road and to Midleton.


  • #125
    Hibernicis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killagh

    Spot on. Whenever I drive Cork to Waterford and back those are the two black spots I dread the most. There is no excuse for dragging a National Primary Route and a Euroroute through small villages. And given that both are located on right angle bends bypassing them should be straightforward if the Bypass were to traverse the 90 degree angle.

    Of all the minor interventions that could be taken to improve N25 these are probably at the very top of the cost benefit list.


  • #126
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    But apart from a few local accesses, there isn't a massive accident rate on this road as far as I know. The south ring is far, far, far worse and in all my year and a half driving from Cobh to Cork at rush hour there has only been a couple of bad accidents that I'm aware of.

    Lakeview is easier to sort than it looks. Demolish those houses, make a flyover over the roundabout with no entry/exit and put a GSJ a kilometer east linking up to the Whitegate road and to Midleton.

    I've one minor difference of opinion to what you're saying, with my "dream infrastructure" hat on: I'd rather see an underpass, so that the town could be contiguous once more. The road really splits the south of Midleton right now.


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  • #127
    niloc1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I've one minor difference of opinion to what you're saying, with my "dream infrastructure" hat on: I'd rather see an underpass, so that the town could be contiguous once more. The road really splits the south of Midleton right now.

    The topography of the site lends itself to an overpass as the N25 to the east of the roundabout rises 5m in the first 250m at surface level and continued to rise for a further 250m
    If an underpass was to be considered, with a road surface 5m underground at the roundabout, it would mean a steep climb out of the tunnel.


  • #128
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    The topography of the site lends itself to an overpass as the N25 to the east of the roundabout rises 5m in the first 250m at surface level and continued to rise for a further 250m
    If an underpass was to be considered, with a road surface 5m underground at the roundabout, it would mean a steep climb out of the tunnel.

    I know exactly the rise you mean, but I hadn't considered its impact: I'd only considered the impact of the water west of the roundabout.


  • #129
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The IDA have tendered for engineering consultancy services for designing an access road to their site at Ballyadam, Carrigtwohill (the Amgen site).

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/171262/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

    Interesting to see how these connect up


  • #130
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »
    It also states that they want it to be a motorway, which would be a significant upgrade on the existing road (and would hopefully mean higher speed limits to go with it).

    I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
    There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
    1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

    2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

    3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

    4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

    So I'm definitely apprehensive.

    If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.


  • #131
    BelfastVanMan
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
    There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
    1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

    2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

    3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

    4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

    So I'm definitely apprehensive.

    If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

    I find it hard to agrue with that.
    Castlemartyr and Killeagh need bypasses like Charlie Haughey needed backhanders.


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  • #132
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
    There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
    1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

    2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

    3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

    4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

    So I'm definitely apprehensive.

    If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

    I actually completely agree with you on upgrading Middleton to Youghal first, that would be a heck of a lot more beneficial than this upgrade. Castlemartyr and Killeagh are complete bottlenecks.


  • #133
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
    There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
    1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

    2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

    3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

    4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

    So I'm definitely apprehensive.

    If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

    It would be better to upgrade Killeagh and Castlemartyr but there is a few small things I would like to see done with the Carrigtohill to Middleton section


  • #134
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The scheme length is stated as 5 km, but the drawing marks a 12 km stretch of N25, including 3.5 km beyond the current eastern end of the dual carriageway, so I don't think this is a wholesale upgrading to Motorway.

    My guess is a similar project to the Cork South Ring junction improvements: parallel access roads and elimination of closely-spaced junctions. In the case of N25 specifically, such parallel access would allow the Castlerock junction westbound to be given a longer, safer onramp, and provide access to the currently unused "Amgen site" without the prospect of traffic lights(!), and eliminate the last couple of cross-median junctions.

    I also agree that Castlemartyr needs a bypass - now that New Ross is bypassed, it is the main bottleneck on the entire route between Rosslare and Cork. (Killeagh is nowhere near as bad as Castlemartyr, and a lot of its issues are from people dodging Castlemartyr via Mogeely increasing traffic at that junction). I just worry that, if Midleton-Carrigtwohill isn't fixed first, then increasing traffic flow onto Westlake roundabout would just make things worse.


  • #135
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    steeler j wrote: »
    It would be better to upgrade Killeagh and Castlemartyr but there is a few small things I would like to see done with the Carrigtohill to Middleton section

    Yep, I'm 100% in favour of the smaller works you're alluding to, for sure.
    Remove the direct access to the road. Remove the median crossing at Waterrock.

    And here's the important one for me: fund an upgrade of viable secondary routes for slower-moving vehicles and active transport. There's two existing roads to choose from, one North of the N25 and one South of the N25.
    I'm not saying to widen and smoothen these, rather to actively design them, and discourage speeding on them through passive design measures.

    After the above are done, you could slap a blue sign on the N25 without significant effort to be honest.

    This project screams of cart-before-horse to me.
    I hope I'm wrong about that.


  • #136
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    The scheme length is stated as 5 km, but the drawing marks a 12 km stretch of N25, including 3.5 km beyond the current eastern end of the dual carriageway, so I don't think this is a wholesale upgrading to Motorway.

    My guess is a similar project to the Cork South Ring junction improvements: parallel access roads and elimination of closely-spaced junctions. In the case of N25 specifically, such parallel access would allow the Castlerock junction westbound to be given a longer, safer onramp, and provide access to the currently unused "Amgen site" without the prospect of traffic lights(!), and eliminate the last couple of cross-median junctions.

    I also agree that Castlemartyr needs a bypass - now that New Ross is bypassed, it is the main bottleneck on the entire route between Rosslare and Cork. (Killeagh is nowhere near as bad as Castlemartyr, and a lot of its issues are from people dodging Castlemartyr via Mogeely increasing traffic at that junction). I just worry that, if Midleton-Carrigtwohill isn't fixed first, then increasing traffic flow onto Westlake roundabout would just make things worse.

    Regarding the local parallel roads:
    There's no mention of the parallel roads being upgraded. They're local roads and they're Co Co responsibility, not TII. I'd be utterly delighted if they were upgraded as strategic parallel-access roads. I'd be probably happier than anyone on here.
    The LDP sees these roads as primarily facilitating sprawl in Midleton and Carrigtohill. They're effectively earmarked to have many housing estates directly on them. The Co Co will upgrade them piecemeal and not strategically.

    On the other hand, on the N25:
    The WaterRock UEA needs a new interchange on the M25, to facilitate house building. They hope to build an extra 25% the size of Midleton.
    Lakeview Roundabout is also a major bottleneck and TII need to improve the flow there.
    Plus all the legitimate safety and throughput concerns.

    So yeah, I think TII's focus on Carrigtohill-Midleton is misplaced.


  • #137
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    BelfastVanMan wrote: »
    I find it hard to agrue with that.
    Castlemartyr and Killeagh need bypasses like Charlie Haughey needed backhanders.

    They're a disaster, particularly Castlemartyr.
    Even on Sundays, the tailbacks are ridiculous.

    Nobody could possibly look at the N25 and consider Carrigtohill-Midleton to be a priority above Castlemartyr and Killeagh. It's just not believable.

    Sorry for getting so exercised about it, but as far as I'm concerned this project stinks.


  • #138
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Its off topic so maybe a mod could move this discussion but...

    Surely to upgrade to M25 west of Midleton, the main thing that is needed is a new motorway junction at the eastern corner of the "Amgen site" which would serve that site, the quarry and houses to the south and also allow access to Waterrock? That would put the junction about 2km from the junctions either side, which is decent spacing. Some new elements of local roads would be needed to tie into the existing roads but not a full parallel road for several km along the N25.

    If motorway was to be extended east of Midleton, it would have to pass over the Lakeview roundabout on a bridge with no junction provided there, instead a new junction would be provided east of the town. A new distributor road would be needed east of Midleton and serving Ballinacurra to the south. Such a distributor road east of Midleton should be progressed now and a new P&R station provided a km and a bit from the station. The car park could also be used by greenway users at weekends.


  • #139
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Its off topic so maybe a mod could move this discussion but...
    We should probably nip off to another thread, but you make some great points.
    Sorry to others for the derailment!
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Surely to upgrade to M25 west of Midleton, the main thing that is needed is a new motorway junction at the eastern corner of the "Amgen site" which would serve that site, the quarry and houses to the south and also allow access to Waterrock? That would put the junction about 2km from the junctions either side, which is decent spacing. Some new elements of local roads would be needed to tie into the existing roads but not a full parallel road for several km along the N25.
    I've no problem with the general thrust of what you're saying but there's houses directly on both sides of the N25 in a good few locations. The new WaterRock/Amgen junction will facilitate some, and you could tie new roads in from North and South for others, but you still have industrial and agri traffic and cyclists to deal with! There's also an existing plan for a dedicated E-W cycleway on the corridor. So you end up doing a lot of the work regardless.
    The simple solution is to upgrade the already-available parallel routes and tie in to those. I'm not necessarily talking about needing a 2+2 and dedicated bus lanes, cycle lanes and footpaths here, but they need to move away from a single-lane road with no hard shoulder, blind bends and the likes. These roads just aren't currently capable of functioning as local distributors.
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    If motorway was to be extended east of Midleton, it would have to pass over the Lakeview roundabout on a bridge with no junction provided there, instead a new junction would be provided east of the town. A new distributor road would be needed east of Midleton and serving Ballinacurra to the south. Such a distributor road east of Midleton should be progressed now and a new P&R station provided a km and a bit from the station. The car park could also be used by greenway users at weekends.

    I'm in favour of all of an eastern distributor. It would facilitate a move away from the current use of Main Street as a primary transport route. Lakeview Roundabout is a real "divider" right now too, cutting the town in two. But I don't believe there are any such plans at present. Lakeview Roundabout is staying in the current plan. Here, even when you to focus your mind on the Midleton area, the N25 isn't your priority item, the Lakeview Roundabout is!

    As I say, very little of this project as it's currently presented seems makes sense to me. The issues will stay....but we'll be able to develop WaterRock and Amgen though.


  • #140
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I've no problem with the general thrust of what you're saying but there's houses directly on both sides of the N25 in a good few locations. The new WaterRock/Amgen junction will facilitate some, and you could tie new roads in from North and South for others, but you still have industrial and agri traffic and cyclists to deal with! There's also an existing plan for a dedicated E-W cycleway on the corridor. So you end up doing a lot of the work regardless.
    The simple solution is to upgrade the already-available parallel routes and tie in to those. I'm not necessarily talking about needing a 2+2 and dedicated bus lanes, cycle lanes and footpaths here, but they need to move away from a single-lane road with no hard shoulder, blind bends and the likes. These roads just aren't currently capable of functioning as local distributors.

    The bit in bold is pretty much what I was saying, work with whats there, improve that and fill in gaps as necessary.
    I'm in favour of all of an eastern distributor. It would facilitate a move away from the current use of Main Street as a primary transport route. Lakeview Roundabout is a real "divider" right now too, cutting the town in two. But I don't believe there are any such plans at present. Lakeview Roundabout is staying in the current plan. Here, even when you to focus your mind on the Midleton area, the N25 isn't your priority item, the Lakeview Roundabout is!

    If the roundabout stays, motorway will have to end west of Midleton. I can't see 2+2 bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh being priority as long as the bottleneck of the single carriageway road and roundabout remain at Midleton. I'd say this is why TII are prioritising west of Midleton, and they are right. I suggested the P&R as a measure to reduce traffic through the roundabout, get as much as possible to turn off east of Midleton and get on trains.
    As I say, very little of this project as it's currently presented seems makes sense to me. The issues will stay....but we'll be able to develop WaterRock and Amgen though.

    I can see the sense in it. No point having a great road bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh encouraging more traffic to feed into a bottleneck at Midleton and a substandard road further west which is carrying even more traffic. Carrigtohill - Midleton east needs to be sorted.


  • #141
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I can see the sense in it. No point having a great road bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh encouraging more traffic to feed into a bottleneck at Midleton and a substandard road further west which is carrying even more traffic. Carrigtohill - Midleton east needs to be sorted.

    I don't understand I'm afraid.
    The big bottleneck is the Lakeview Roundabout, I think we're in agreement on that?

    But this plan doesn't fix the Lakeview Roundabout at all, it just upgrades the N25 2+2 West of Lakeview and the N25 1+1 immediately East of Lakeview? It looks more like an all-in effort to develop on the Carrigtohill-Midleton corridor.

    Edit, could Admin possibly hive our discussion off into the N25 thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057983325


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  • #142
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I don't understand I'm afraid.
    The big bottleneck is the Lakeview Roundabout, I think we're in agreement on that?

    But this plan doesn't fix the Lakeview Roundabout at all, it just upgrades the N25 2+2 West of Lakeview and the N25 1+1 immediately East of Lakeview? It looks more like an all-in effort to develop on the Carrigtohill-Midleton corridor.

    Well we still dont know exact what the scope is here. If the roundabout isn't removed then there is no point in upgrading east of it, attracting more traffic and giving it a largely free run down the throat of a major bottleneck. That is going to create as many problems as it solves. In the absence of removing the roundabout, its better to focus on the substandard road west of Midleton plus a P&R east of it to somewhat reduce traffic through the roundabout.


  • #143
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Some posts have been moved in here above. They are in response to this:

    TII have published a major run through of all major projects.

    https://www.tii.ie/roads-tolling/projects-and-improvements/Major-Active-Projects.pdf

    This scheme is planned as a motorway not dual carriageway.


  • #144
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Well we still dont know exact what the scope is here. If the roundabout isn't removed then there is no point in upgrading east of it, attracting more traffic and giving it a largely free run down the throat of a major bottleneck. That is going to create as many problems as it solves. In the absence of removing the roundabout, its better to focus on the substandard road west of Midleton plus a P&R east of it to somewhat reduce traffic through the roundabout.

    I agree: if the roundabout isn't removed there's no point upgrading east of it.
    Focusing on the substandard road West of Midleton is fine, but as I keep bleating on, if I were working on the N25 corridor that would be a low priority for me, with so many other issues to choose from.
    I suspect the thing that's making that piece of the corridor interesting is the possibility of developing the land.


  • #145
    Gunner3629
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Gunner3629


    Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
    Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.


  • #146
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Gunner3629 wrote: »
    Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
    Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.

    Yep, that's what I've been saying.
    The N25 between Carrigtohill and Midleton is nowhere near the priority that the section between Midleton and Youghal is. Focusing money at the section West of Midleton looks more like a development facilitation effort than a roads upgrade to me.


  • #147
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Gunner3629 wrote: »
    Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
    Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.

    If the Castlemarytr bottleneck was removed but the roundabout remained, the bottleneck that is Lakeview would be significantly magnified. Short single carriageway bypasses of Castlemarytr and Killeagh should be progressed rather than waiting decades for something more.


  • #148
    Paddico
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Paddico


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Some posts have been moved in here above. They are in response to this:

    TII have published a major run through of all major projects.

    https://www.tii.ie/roads-tolling/projects-and-improvements/Major-Active-Projects.pdf

    This scheme is planned as a motorway not dual carriageway.

    Looks out of date


  • #149
    tonc76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    If the Castlemarytr bottleneck was removed but the roundabout remained, the bottleneck that is Lakeview would be significantly magnified. Short single carriageway bypasses of Castlemarytr and Killeagh should be progressed rather than waiting decades for something more.

    Both would still overload Lakeview roundabout though?


  • #150
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    1, Lakeview is already overloaded.
    2, Lakeview wasn't the issue highlighted in the TII document, the safety of the 2+2 was.
    3, Castlemartyr badly needs a bypass (any bypass! Even a short single carriageway would help).
    4, Fixing Lakeview without Castlemartyr being bypassed WILL see longer Castlemartyr tailbacks.

    They seem to be ignoring pretty significant problems in the area and focusing on something that will mostly facilitate development. That shouldn't be TII's job IMO.

    Lakeview to Castlemartyr is 100kmh 1+1 with houses directly on it and no median. There's no amount of discussion of the safety of the section between Carrigtohill and Midleton that will bring it into priority focus for me, as someone that uses both sections extremely regularly.

    There's frequent crashes on the section immediately West of Carrigtohill. Even if they were looking at that stretch it would make more sense to me. This one's all about getting that new junction in place, so that the Amgen and WaterRock sites can be developed.


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  • #151
    niloc1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    As a Midleton resident here's my tuppence worth.
    1. No great issue with the N25 100km/h section west of Midleton, although it would definitely benefit from a bit of tidying up and a proper merging lane at Jct 5 westbound plus proper exit and merging lanes to serve existing by-roads.
    2. Lakeview Roundabout urgently needs to be sorted, there are regular tailbacks on St. Mary's Road (R630) and as already stated on the N25 in both directions.
    3. Castlemartyr is a disaster, it should have been by-passed during the last century
    4. Killeagh is not too bad but also need to be by-passed.

    Sort 2,3&4 and you have a clear route between the JLT and Dungarvan


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