Politics and prayer

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 1:18pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The reports if 85 people killed in a terror attack by a religious fanatic?

Love to see how many would consider themself Catholic in this country if the German religion tax was bought in, I think you would find that the "faithful" would soon become a minority.

I see now where you are confused. To pray is to get down on your knees and beg God for forgiveness. Killing people is something else.
Give onto Caesar that which is Caesar`s and give onto God that which is God`s. Like Catholics of olden days, the faithful would keep the faith behind hedgerows and gorse. Neither Redcoat or communist can defeat the faithful.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 1:21pm

Its dead Jim wrote: »

Theocracies must be the best countries then like umm, oh dear. Im sure there's one good theocracy, somewhere...

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 1:26pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

I see now where you are confused. To pray is to get down on your knees and beg God for forgiveness. Killing people is something else.
Give onto Caesar that which is Caesar`s and give onto God that which is God`s. Like Catholics of olden days, the faithful would keep the faith behind hedgerows and gorse. Neither Redcoat or communist can defeat the faithful.

How is getting on your knees inspiring?

You said prayer inspires the faithful

I'm just pointing out that it also inspires the lunatics.

Prayer has no place in politics

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 1:27pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

He means places that actually exist

Care to show us this "heaven" place? Got a picture? Maybe a link on Google maps?

Its dead Jim · 15-07-2016 1:33pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

If you can point that out to me on a map, sure. Never heard of it and google maps is showing nothing. Is it near Saudi Arabia? Quite a few theocracies in that area.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 1:43pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How is getting on your knees inspiring?

You said prayer inspires the faithful

I'm just pointing out that it also inspires the lunatics.

Prayer has no place in politics

For the faithful prayer is wonderful. There are certainly apostates of the Devil and false prophets that masquerade as wolves in sheep`s clothing and those forces of evil also inspire. This is why wisdom and understanding are so much more important than mere knowledge.

Politics is about leadership. Where would you have our TDs lead us. To Hell? Prayer is all important.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 1:44pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He means places that actually exist

Care to show us this "heaven" place? Got a picture? Maybe a link on Google maps?

First find your faith. Then you will find heaven.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 1:51pm

Its dead Jim wrote: »

If you can point that out to me on a map, sure. Never heard of it and google maps is showing nothing. Is it near Saudi Arabia? Quite a few theocracies in that area.

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

El_Duderino 09 · 15-07-2016 1:53pm

realitykeeper wrote:

What I do not know is what you were driving at. Specifics help. It is abundantly clear that the sacrifice which Christ made was necessary as a lesson to the world. It suffices only for those who heed and act on that lesson.

I asked the question in reference to this point you made.

realitykeeper wrote:

Assuming it is true, that god sacrificed his son for the salvation of sinners, then humanity owes God a debt of gratitude. Assuming it is false, then there is no debt owing. Given that you cannot know whether or not God exists, the non believer runs the risk of breathtaking ingratitude.

You said god made the sacrifice of his son for the salvation of sinners and we owe it's a debt of gratitude. You wanted to go round the houses by discussing the meaning of 'understanding' and the like so I'm not surprised you forgot what I was asking about.

My question was whether god chose a this way of saving sinners or if it was bought do to use this method. You seem to be saying hat god chose the method as a lesson to the world (but it's hard to tell because you haven't answered straight). A lesson would constitute evidence though and I thought your other point was that god doesn't use too much evidence god would prefer we come to it by faith rather than evidence.

Some religious people tell the same story like the sacrifice was a substitutional atonement for the sins of humanity. The sacrifice somehow cleansed humanity of its sins and opened the gates to the kingdom of heaven. If that isn't your understanding don't feel obliged to respond to it. It's just another way the sacrifice has been explained to me.

It's very difficult to weave a consistent narrative through the events. But that's your job, not mine.

To paraphrase, god doesn't give people too much evidence of its existence, except the times when it does give evidence to the chosen few. Like when god sent its son to provide evidence by preaching and ultimately providing such evidence as to constitute a lesson by being sacrificed.

I hope you hold other matters of importance to a better standard of evidence.

PopePalpatine · 15-07-2016 1:54pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Putin is ok. So is the Russian Orthodox Church. Not sure what point you are making.

This would be the same Putin who's taken Russia to 148th (out of 179) in the World Press Freedom index, and scored 29/100 (where 0 is most corrupt, and 100 is least corrupt) in Transparency International's corruption ratings. The resurgence of religion in Russia hasn't cured corruption.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 1:59pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

For the faithful prayer is wonderful. There are certainly apostates of the Devil and false prophets that masquerade as wolves in sheep`s clothing and those forces of evil also inspire. This is why wisdom and understanding are so much more important than mere knowledge.

Politics is about leadership. Where would you have our TDs lead us. To Hell? Prayer is all important.

Hell? Again can you show us proof of its existence?

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 2:01pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

Israel? The country who indiscriminately bombs innocent men women and children is your idea of heaven?

Its dead Jim · 15-07-2016 2:01pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

You think more countries should be like Israel then?

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 2:39pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

My question was whether god chose a this way of saving sinners or if it was bought do to use this method.

Some religious people tell the same story like the sacrifice was a substitutional atonement for the sins of humanity.

Right, I think I have your question in these two sentences. Regarding the second sentence, that is the way the religious tell it and it used to be my understanding until I gave the matter some thought. Now, I think the crucifixion was a lesson or an example to humanity.

Regarding the first question, God did not crucify Himself but He choose not to save Himself in the hope that the faithful would think about and understand why He did not save Himself. The crucifixion was an act of evil. It was perpetrated by people who did not fully understand what they were doing.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 2:52pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

This would be the same Putin who's taken Russia to 148th (out of 179) in the World Press Freedom index, and scored 29/100 (where 0 is most corrupt, and 100 is least corrupt) in Transparency International's corruption ratings. The resurgence of religion in Russia hasn't cured corruption.

Ok so Putin insists on high standards in journalism. Not everyone makes the cut. Transparency, like a plethora of western backed NGOs is a puppet organization which panders to the western establishment. The west is the greatest threat to peace and security in the world today. This is not a reference to the sale of arms to terrorists but to the future destabilization of the global markets following the inevitable implosion of QE economies.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:08pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Hell? Again can you show us proof of its existence?

The sinners will find Hell for themselves. There are plenty of Godless places in this world such as North Korea for example where the elderly pick corn from cow dung to survive.
Very often there is a time lag between cause and consequence. Here in the west, life is good by world standards but the reason it is good is because of the Christian values of previous generations. This generation more godless than any in recorded history. Hell on earth awaits. By the end of this decade you will see were Godlessness has brought Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 3:09pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

The sinners will find Hell for themselves. There are plenty of Godless places in this world such as North Korea for example where the elderly pick corn from cow dung to survive.
Very often there is a time lag between cause and consequence. Here in the west, life is good by world standards but the reason it is good is because of the Christian values of previous generations. This generation more godless than any in recorded history. Hell on earth awaits. By the end of this decade you will see were Godlessness has brought Ireland.

So in reality "heaven & hell" exist only in the minds of the faithful.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:10pm

Its dead Jim wrote: »

You think more countries should be like Israel then?

I think every country should aspire to be like Israel.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:12pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Israel? The country who indiscriminately bombs innocent men women and children is your idea of heaven?

Israel is not Heaven and North Korea is not Hell but as far as earthly examples go, you get the idea.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 3:15pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think every country should aspire to be like Israel.

Every country should aspire to take its neighbours land and wipe out the indigenous population? Not very "Christian" of you.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:21pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So in reality "heaven & hell" exist only in the minds of the faithful.

Nope. Heaven and Hell exist its just that those without faith do not believe it.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 3:25pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Nope. Heaven and Hell exist its just that those without faith do not believe it.

Narnia exists too

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:27pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Every country should aspire to take its neighbours land and wipe out the indigenous population? Not very "Christian" of you.

God gave Israel to the Jews. Israel is the best thing that every happened to the middle east. Indeed many of Israel`s Arab neighbours are now benefiting from Israeli trade and expertise. The Palestinians could too if they got rid of Hamas and stopped bombing Israel.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 3:29pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

God gave Israel to the Jews. Israel is the best thing that every happened to the middle east. Indeed many of Israel`s Arab neighbours are now benefiting from Israeli trade and expertise. The Palestinians could too if they got rid of Hamas and stopped bombing Israel.

LOL

Your mask is slipping

PopePalpatine · 15-07-2016 3:40pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Ok so Putin insists on high standards in journalism.

More like he asks for high standards in kowtowing.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 3:57pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

LOL

Your mask is slipping

Palestine is another example of a Godless place so no, I am not being inconsistent.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 4:02pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Palestine is another example of a Godless place so no, I am not being inconsistent.

Really?

Because Palestine has a mixture of Muslims, Jews and Christian people.

93% of them are Muslim, or are they only "godless" because they don't follow your particular brand of religion?

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 7:58pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Really?

Because Palestine has a mixture of Muslims, Jews and Christian people.

93% of them are Muslim, or are they only "godless" because they don't follow your particular brand of religion?

Nope. Because they wage war on Israel. If God will not permit the destruction of Israel by the whole world He will certainly not permit it by Palestine. The Israelis handed the Gaza strip back to Palestine a few years ago and it became a base to launch attacks on Israel. Every religion has its false Prophets and Islam is no exception.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 8:04pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Nope. Because they wage war on Israel. If God will not permit the destruction of Israel by the whole world He will certainly not permit it by Palestine. The Israelis handed the Gaza strip back to Palestine a few years ago and it became a base to launch attacks on Israel. Every religion has its false Prophets and Islam is no exception.

Yeah i think you have been watching too much FOX news, Explains a lot actually.

PopePalpatine · 15-07-2016 8:26pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yeah i think you have been watching too much FOX news, Explains a lot actually.

Given his love of Putin, I'd say Russia Today would be more his cup of tea.

realitykeeper · 15-07-2016 11:49pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Given his love of Putin, I'd say Russia Today would be more his cup of tea.

You are correct there PopePalpatine. I watch it as a counterbalance to western media and then make up my own mind.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-07-2016 7:25am

realitykeeper wrote:

Right, I think I have your question in these two sentences. Regarding the second sentence, that is the way the religious tell it and it used to be my understanding until I gave the matter some thought. Now, I think the crucifixion was a lesson or an example.

Regarding the first question, God did not crucify Himself but He choose not to save Himself in the hope that the faithful would think about and understand why He did not save Himself. The crucifixion was an act of evil. It was perpetrated by people who did not fully understand what they were doing.

Ah, so you're working on your own individual interpretation of Christianity. That's fair enough. I imagine there are as many types of Christianity as there are Christians. Each version of Christianity is equally valid I suppose.

realitykeeper · 20-07-2016 11:44pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, so you're working on your own individual interpretation of Christianity. That's fair enough. I imagine there are as many types of Christianity as there are Christians. Each version of Christianity is equally valid I suppose.

As a Christian, I think there is only one true God and only one correct interpretation of Christianity but I respect everyone`s right to hold a different opinion, within reason.

Driving a truck into a crowd is wrong and so is any individual or religion that condones such things.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-07-2016 6:54am

realitykeeper wrote:

As a Christian, I think there is only one true God and only one correct interpretation of Christianity but I respect everyone`s right to hold a different opinion, within reason.

realitykeeper wrote:

Driving a truck into a crowd is wrong and so is any individual or religion that condones such things.

I think you might have forgotten what I was asking you about.

To paraphrase, I was asking about whether god makes the rules with respect to substitutional atonement. Substitutional atonement being a normal interpretation of the crucifixion in Christianity. You went round the houses before telling me that you figured out an interpretation of Christianitywhere the crucifixion wasn't substantial atonement, instead it was a lesson to humanity.

Your appear to have an interpretation of Christianity which is unique to yourself, a religion of 1. Since there's no way to test any of the interpretations of any of the gods, your interpretation is as valid as mine or the Pope's or anybody else.

The bit about the truck is true but I've no idea why you're telling me.

realitykeeper · 21-07-2016 1:11pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think you might have forgotten what I was asking you about.

To paraphrase, I was asking about whether god makes the rules with respect to substitutional atonement. Substitutional atonement being a normal interpretation of the crucifixion in Christianity. You went round the houses before telling me that you figured out an interpretation of Christianitywhere the crucifixion wasn't substantial atonement, instead it was a lesson to humanity.

Your appear to have an interpretation of Christianity which is unique to yourself, a religion of 1. Since there's no way to test any of the interpretations of any of the gods, your interpretation is as valid as mine or the Pope's or anybody else.

The bit about the truck is true but I've no idea why you're telling me.

The bit about understanding is also true. The catch is that to understand you have to take what you know (based on life experience, on what you have read and heard etc), blend it thoroughly with what your conscience tells you is right and then mull it all over on a regular basis. Most people do not do that. Hence, understanding is lacking in the world. If it were not lacking, a lot more people would likely arrive at similar conclusions.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-07-2016 1:37pm

realitykeeper wrote:

The bit about understanding is also true. The catch is that to understand you have to take what you know (based on life experience, on what you have read and heard etc), blend it thoroughly with what your conscience tells you is right and then mull it all over on a regular basis. Most people do not do that. Hence, understanding is lacking in the world. If it were not lacking, a lot more people would likely arrive at similar conclusions.

You came to that conclusion but the last thing religions want is people thinking about it. At best they will end up free-styling their own theology as you did, at worst they will realise they don't actually believe it.

This conversation is spent. Cheers for the chat.

Politics and prayer

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