School demand management

Victor · 21-09-2019 3:12am #1

This is one thing we do remarkably badly in this country. The vast majority of students at a given school start and finish at the same time, resulting in hundreds of students exiting school at the same time, overloading the roads an transport services. Admittedly, adjacent school may stagger times, especially in rural areas that are dependent on school buses, with the staggered times allowing a given bus to make additional journeys.

I've swapped emails with a suburban secondary school principal where the situation is so bad that crowds of students are swarming the pedestrian crossing and walking on the roadway of an adjacent dual carriageway at school finishing time, as the footpaths aren't wide enough.

Any thoughts on how moderate things in the short term?

Cookie_Monster · 21-09-2019 4:17am

Victor wrote: »

This is one thing we do remarkably badly in this country. The vast majority of students at a given school start and finish at the same time, resulting in hundreds of students exiting school at the same time, overloading the roads an transport services. Admittedly, adjacent school may stagger times, especially in rural areas that are dependent on school buses, with the staggered times allowing a given bus to make additional journeys.

I've swapped emails with a suburban secondary school principal where the situation is so bad that crows of students are walking on the roadway of an adjacent dual carriageway at school finishing time, as the footpaths aren't wide enough.

Any thoughts on how moderate things in the short term?

Make the footpaths wider?

Victor · 21-09-2019 4:59am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Make the footpaths wider?

Would take time and there isn't a lot of space.

22-09-2019 12:33pm

Stop driving kids to school, problem fixed

goingnowhere · 22-09-2019 12:36pm

That doesn't fix the issue as the hoards of kids on the buses and train during the AM peak is a major problem to coping with demand.

Lord Glentoran · 22-09-2019 12:50pm

Victor wrote: »

This is one thing we do remarkably badly in this country. The vast majority of students at a given school start and finish at the same time, resulting in hundreds of students exiting school at the same time, overloading the roads an transport services. Admittedly, adjacent school may stagger times, especially in rural areas that are dependent on school buses, with the staggered times allowing a given bus to make additional journeys.

I've swapped emails with a suburban secondary school principal where the situation is so bad that crowds of students are swarming the pedestrian crossing and walking on the roadway of an adjacent dual carriageway at school finishing time, as the footpaths aren't wide enough.

Any thoughts on how moderate things in the short term?

Yes. Get the wee toads walking and cycling. Mammy’s Taxi IS traffic.

whisky_galore · 22-09-2019 1:02pm

Get Bus Éireann ( or others if BE won't get off their backsides) to put on more school buses where there is clearly a demand and put an end to the bus lottery. It's a bit of a joke having kids 'striking' for climate change yet being ferried everywhere by mummy and her SUV.

Victor · 22-09-2019 1:48pm

It's a suburban school. The main problem is the amount of local students is too large for the current footpaths.

whisky_galore · 22-09-2019 2:01pm

Victor wrote: »

It's a suburban school. The main problem is the amount of local students is too large for the current footpaths.

Nothing a slap of a car won't sort.

It doesn't entitle anyone to walk on the road.

LeinsterDub · 22-09-2019 2:06pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Nothing a slap of a car won't sort.

It doesn't entitle anyone to walk on the road.

The rules of the road entitle them to walk on it

magicbastarder · 22-09-2019 2:29pm

what's the average distance travelled by kids to school?

also, the notion that we should change when the school hours start seems at first glance to me to be a case of 'if this is the answer, we're asking the wrong questions'.
what if you're a parent with kids in different schools, who now has to deal with two kids with starting times say an hour apart?

The pigeon man · 22-09-2019 2:33pm

They should all get on their bicycles and go to school. Less of mummies chauffeuring their kids a mile down the road in big SUVs.

LeinsterDub · 22-09-2019 2:41pm

The pigeon man wrote: »

They should all get on their bicycles and go to school. Less of mummies chauffeuring their kids a mile down the road in big SUVs.

https://twitter.com/conormolloy/status/1052934482314055683

It's not just kids who should be getting in their bikes. 5 k is an easy cycle

KevRossi · 22-09-2019 2:48pm

Short term the school could stagger starting and finishing times as well as break times.

Also ban all school drops within 200m of the school, work with local Gardai on this.

Plan safe waking and cycling routes on ‘Quiet Greenways’ from estates etc where a lot of kids live, use parents, older kids and teachers as Marshalls for these.

magicbastarder · 22-09-2019 3:00pm

The pigeon man wrote: »

They should all get on their bicycles and go to school. Less of mummies chauffeuring their kids a mile down the road in big SUVs.

the problem is many parents won't let their kids cycle until the roads are quiet, but the roads won't get quiet till the parents stop driving the kids to school.

and much as i dislike SUVs, it's not an SUV issue.

Nekarsulm · 22-09-2019 3:19pm

Staggering finish times for different classes is great, as long as you have only one child at the school.
Collect little Paul at 3.55, then hang around clogging up the area until 4.15 for his sister to get out?
And what benefit is it when children form every class gets on a particular bus?
Run four buses instead of one, at ten minute intervals?
Pay four drivers, pay four sets of insurance and tax?
Can't see any bus company going for that..

lawred2 · 22-09-2019 3:20pm

Why are there no school buses?

Dravokivich · 22-09-2019 3:31pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The rules of the road entitle them to walk on it

For crossing, not as a walkway.

FrankPoll. · 22-09-2019 3:38pm

I've noticed these zebra crossing or whatever they're called now

A new one right outside the school and they're not properly signposted, there should be flashing lights before them

Kids think they can just wander across them ,they're more dangerous than none at all

Dravokivich · 22-09-2019 3:43pm

FrankPoll. wrote: »

I've noticed these zebra crossing or whatever they're called now

A new one right outside the school and they're not properly signposted, there should be flashing lights before them

Kids think they can just wander across them ,they're more dangerous than none at all

Kids just wander out regardless. Secondary school kids are always jumping onto the road my way without looking, coming from behind trucks and buses.

FrankPoll. · 22-09-2019 3:46pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Kids just wander out regardless. Secondary school kids are always jumping onto the road my way without looking, coming from behind trucks and buses.

Ya but with the crossings they tend not to look around

Why isn't there flashing lights ahead of these things ,too much trouble I guess

LeinsterDub · 22-09-2019 4:15pm

FrankPoll. wrote: »

I've noticed these zebra crossing or whatever they're called now

A new one right outside the school and they're not properly signposted, there should be flashing lights before them

Kids think they can just wander across them ,they're more dangerous than none at all

Eh isn't the the point of a zebra crossing. You're meant to yield

Mrs OBumble · 22-09-2019 4:16pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Yes. Get the wee toads walking and cycling. Mammy’s Taxi IS traffic.

I love the way everyone is approaching this as a car traffic problem, when the OP has clearly said it's an issue with foot traffic capacity.

Treat it like a nightclub: Marshall the kids inside school grounds and only let out as many each minute as the footpath can handle.

As noted, staggered times doesn't work due to group pick-up issues. Kids from the same family / pickup-group who are being met by an adult have to meet up inside the school and leave together.

Either that or close the road entirely - but that may have issues for deliveries and disabilities.

FrankPoll. · 22-09-2019 4:18pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Eh isn't the the point of a zebra crossing. You're meant to yield

If you see it in time

Victor · 22-09-2019 4:39pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Staggering finish times for different classes is great, as long as you have only one child at the school. Collect little Paul at 3.55, then hang around clogging up the area until 4.15 for his sister to get out?

It need not be like that. Imagine letting sixth years (only) start at 10am and finish at 5pm (or whatever times, to fit class duration). It reduces peak demand by about 20%, which might be the whole of the excess demand.

Otherwise, staggering class finishing times (not starting times) across even a period as short as a few minutes could make a difference.

lawred2 wrote: »

Why are there no school buses?

Even in Dublin, there are some school buses. However, most children using buses use scheduled services. In this case, there are three routes nearby - each with a 20-minute frequency.

FrankPoll. · 22-09-2019 4:53pm

The problem with staggering anything is you'd end up with more school runs not less

The schools tightened up on parents dropping kids early which is no help to parents

Isambard · 22-09-2019 7:54pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

For crossing, not as a walkway.

all road users are entitled to be on the road. Pedestrians are road users, the carriageway is not reserved for cars.

lawred2 · 22-09-2019 8:26pm

Victor wrote: »

It need not be like that. Imagine letting sixth years (only) start at 10am and finish at 5pm (or whatever times, to fit class duration). It reduces peak demand by about 20%, which might be the whole of the excess demand.

Otherwise, staggering class finishing times (not starting times) across even a period as short as a few minutes could make a difference.

Even in Dublin, there are some school buses. However, most children using buses use scheduled services. In this case, there are three routes nearby - each with a 20-minute frequency.

I live in Dublin. And I can tell you that not one bus will do the transit from our street to the local school. Not even close.

lawred2 · 22-09-2019 8:28pm

FrankPoll. wrote: »

The problem with staggering anything is you'd end up with more school runs not less

The schools tightened up on parents dropping kids early which is no help to parents

Tightened up because you couldn't get staff to do something that they didn't think they were getting paid for

Dravokivich · 22-09-2019 8:30pm

Isambard wrote: »

all road users are entitled to be on the road. Pedestrians are road users, the carriageway is not reserved for cars.

I'm well aware theirs roads without paths. Thanks. But they should not be using it, in place of a path that doesn't let them walk down bunched outwards.

LeinsterDub · 22-09-2019 8:36pm

lawred2 wrote: »

I live in Dublin. And I can tell you that not one bus will do the transit from our street to the local school. Not even close.

How far the school from your house? Why not walk or cycle?

wally79 · 22-09-2019 8:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/conormolloy/status/1052934482314055683

It's not just kids who should be getting in their bikes. 5 k is an easy cycle

That graph is confusing me. How can 86% of private car journeys be >8 km and 80% of private car journeys between 6% and 8%

Edit I get it now. It’s just badly labelled.

alentejo · 22-09-2019 8:52pm

I think part of the problem with people driving on the school run is that many parents themselves then drive to work. Not excusing this, just stating that the problem is slightly more complex to fix

lawred2 · 22-09-2019 8:58pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How far the school from your house? Why not walk or cycle?

School is about 1.5km or so from the house.

Footpath is broken for about 500m. Walking is out of the question.

You wouldn't take two kids out on bikes out around where I live. It's a drag strip for motorists.

I'm not being dramatic either. Road out the front serves as pretty much the only link between Portmarnock and the M50.

Every councilor since I've lived here has promised off road walk ways and cycle ways. Still waiting

magicbastarder · 22-09-2019 9:13pm

i think schools get too much of a bad rap in terms of the traffic generated; yes, the traffic goes to pot when the schools go back, but that's also got a lot to do with the number of people commuting for work going up to when the schools go back.
certainly where i work, there's a noticeable increase in the presence in the office when the schools go back; there's a strong correlation between people taking leave and the period of the school summer holidays.

Victor · 22-09-2019 9:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think schools get too much of a bad rap in terms of the traffic generated

Workplaces, etc. don't quite have the same "The bell has wrung, I'm gone" mentality and people will gradually leave as they finish a task.

Dravokivich · 22-09-2019 10:20pm

Victor wrote: »

Workplaces, etc. don't quite have the same "The bell has wrung, I'm gone" mentality and people will gradually leave as they finish a task.

Hes alluding to getting there in the first place. Not everyone is going to have a flexible start time.

magicbastarder · 22-09-2019 10:31pm

no, i'm not alluding to, say, everyone in the office starting at 9pm; i'm referring to the 'the schools are back, kids are being driven to school so therefore that's why the traffic is bad' attitude, and people only focussing on kids getting to school as a cause of increased traffic.

the schools being back is also correlated with the adults being back at work too; when the schools are back, there is simply more traffic created by people driving to work, regardless of the start time of the school; precisely because parents are more inclined to take their own annual leave when the schools are off.

about 20 years ago, i used to be one of the guys who'd arrive at your door with the spare parts under my arm to fix your computer if it broke. the amount of calls we'd have during the summer months was maybe 60% what it would be during the rest of the year. it was great; there was one two week period in the summer of 1999 where the latest i got home was 2pm.

Victor · 23-09-2019 7:43pm

This is what I've suggested.

Easing impact in the short term:
* Stagger class finishing times over, say, a five minute period. Perhaps it won’t be popular, but would spread the worst of the peak. Staggering starting times will have less of an effect.
* If students have a half-day one day a week, allocate different days to each year. This would reduce peak demand by 16-20%.
* Provide / encourage after-school activities, including informal ones, e.g. allow students play basketball or football after school with limited supervision.
* Create a homework / study club.
* Encourage students that are being dropped-off / picked-up to use the eastern pedestrian gate.
* Ask the council to make the pedestrian crossings demand-responsive, i.e. the more they are used, the more time that pedestrians get. For example, on Rathmines Road Lower, when you press the button, it takes 45 seconds for the green man to show and the lights then cycle back to green for traffic. If the button is pressed again within a few minutes, it then only takes 30 seconds for the green man to show. If the button is pressed again within a few minutes, it then only takes 15 seconds for the green man to show. If there is an extended period when nobody presses the button, it then reverts to 45 seconds.

Medium term:
* Commission a demand management study. The council and/or the National Transport Authority may be willing to assist with this.
* Improve traffic calming and crash protection on Road X.
* Widen footpaths.
* Additional bus stop(s) at the junction of Road X and Road Y. This would shorten the walking route for some students using buses and remove crowding from the stop at the junction of Road X and Road Z.

Long term:
* Build greenway across adjacent private land.

Carawaystick · 26-09-2019 8:53pm

How could you timetable a school where different classes are starting at different times? teachers finishing a class after the next one starts?

Victor · 26-09-2019 9:29pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

How could you timetable a school where different classes are starting at different times? teachers finishing a class after the next one starts?

Have the second cohort of students start when the first cohort end their first class. Exact timing would be dependent on whatever length the class period is, typically 40-60 minutes.

Carawaystick · 27-09-2019 7:37pm

The obvious solution is for the roads authority to close one of the lanes on the Adjacent DC during peak times. They gave Planning permission, they should have foreseen the traffic issues then.

Anything like expecting workers to unilaterally amend their contracts, where there is no possibility of extra payments is pie in the sky stuff. Pedestrians should have the highest priority on a road, as its a DC, there's obviously space to accomodate them.

magicbastarder · 27-09-2019 7:41pm

just how long does this 'swarming' last when the school closes? 10 minutes?

Marcusm · 29-09-2019 5:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The rules of the road entitle them to walk on it

Not if there’s a footpath on either side!

Marcusm · 29-09-2019 5:43pm

FrankPoll. wrote: »

If you see it in time

If you don’t see it in time then you are not competent to drive!

Marcusm · 29-09-2019 5:45pm

Isambard wrote: »

all road users are entitled to be on the road. Pedestrians are road users, the carriageway is not reserved for cars.

Wrong! If there is a footpath on either side of the road it is an offence to walk on it except for the purposes of crossing it.

_Kaiser_ · 30-09-2019 9:22am

Victor wrote: »

Workplaces, etc. don't quite have the same "The bell has wrung, I'm gone" mentality and people will gradually leave as they finish a task.

Think that depends on the workplace/industry. Certainly my place is pretty much empty within 15 minutes of half 5.. and the traffic outside shows it! (typical business park with only 1 exit/entrance)

GerardKeating · 01-10-2019 1:25pm

Victor wrote: »

Imagine letting sixth years (only) start at 10am and finish at 5pm (or whatever times, to fit class duration).

But what if I have kids in multiple years, more school runs?

Also, even if the kids make their own way to school, the parents won't want to go to work till the kids leave for school, so parents leave for work at the same time as (or just after) kids go to school, so if all the schools have stagger starting times, do the parents have to arrange suitable staggered start times in work to match this?

Victor · 01-10-2019 3:20pm

Surely sixth years can make their own way in a suburban area?

Many groups (boys -v- girls, primary, -v- secondary) of rural schools have staggered starting times between them, so one school bus can make multiple runs.

It would be useful if adults did stagger their starting times and some employers facilitate this.

cruizer101 · 07-10-2019 2:19pm

Am I missing something, the graph makes no sense to me.

51% of car journeys are below 2km
69% are, 2 less than 4

???? guessing its meant to be <4km, bad labelling but makes sense.
But then what happens at the top, 86% greater than 8km?? then only 14% are less than 8km so can't be that, the 86% includes less than 8km so what are the 14%.

Can anyone explain?

cdaly_ · 07-10-2019 3:17pm

I'm assuming the graph is mis-labeled. If you read it as '<2km', '<4km', '<6km' etc it makes slightly better sense. It's still incorrectly labeled though. The '8+km' bar should be only 20% if '<8km' is truely 80%.

School demand management

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