Current affairs in Sweden

realitykeeper · 10-09-2019 10:23am

One other point which is important to make. People on the left frequently assert that western economies are wealthy. Recently I heard one such opinion expressed on one of the English channels by one of their leftists who claimed the UK was the sixth wealthiest nation on earth. In Ireland, the US and other western countries, left wing people spout similar nonsense, and never seem to understand the appalling burden of debt which about to crush these economies. Western countries are in truth very poor, its just that most of us don`t know it yet.

10-09-2019 10:23am

realitykeeper wrote: »

This is why I do not blame or begrudge migrants who come to the west. They come because of our greed, we simply demand too much pay instead of allowing the market decide what we are worth.

The free market is sacred, I shall worship it accordingly. You're as deluded as the other lad with a fictional life of prosperity in the Carolinas.

Gregor Samsa · 10-09-2019 10:27am

We tried having no minimum wage and no welfare state for centuries. Sure, it resulted in little immigration. But it also resulted in millions of exceptionally poor Irish.

The net effect of the welfare state and labour regulations has been overwhelmingly positive for society as a whole, even if some abuse the system. The prosperity we enjoy now (and yes, we are a prosperous country) is a direct result of decades of pulling people out of poverty. We couldn't have done this without the kinds of social policies we had and have. To go and remove those would be akin to removing the foundations from a skyscraper, in the mistaken belief that now that you've got the building up, you don't need this bit at the bottom any more.

realitykeeper · 10-09-2019 12:55pm

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

We tried having no minimum wage and no welfare state for centuries. Sure, it resulted in little immigration. But it also resulted in millions of exceptionally poor Irish.

Ireland was a conquered country. That was the reason we were poor. Do you think the Roman empire had a minimum wage? Of course not and neither did the British empire.

First countries become wealthy and foolishly they then introduce a minimum wage and they think the minimum wage made them wealthy when in fact it is making them poor.

Gregor Samsa · 10-09-2019 1:02pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Ireland was a conquered country. That was the reason we were poor. Do you think the Roman empire had a minimum wage? Of course not and neither did the British empire.

First countries become wealthy and foolishly they then introduce a minimum wage and they think the minimum wage made them wealthy when in fact it is making them poor.

The roman and British empires became rich because they controlled massive supplies of resources (same goes for the US). A certain amount of trickle down economics will work if the people at the top are making insane money. Although you'll always still have poor at the bottom that don't get trickled on (including most of Ireland, in the case of the BE). We never had and don't have the luxury of just hoping that the rest of us will do ok with the discarded loose change of the folk at the very top.

Overheal · 10-09-2019 1:04pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree that banning a license plate is more of a classic right wing move, but in the last decade or so, the left genuinely has jumped all over the "ban anything offensive to anyone" bandwagon and bizarrely, it now tends to be the right who stand against that. We're living in very strange and disturbing times.

Uh huh.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/florida-sticker-eat-ass-arrest

realitykeeper · 10-09-2019 1:53pm

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

The roman and British empires became rich because they controlled massive supplies of resources (same goes for the US). A certain amount of trickle down economics will work if the people at the top are making insane money. Although you'll always still have poor at the bottom that don't get trickled on (including most of Ireland, in the case of the BE). We never had and don't have the luxury of just hoping that the rest of us will do ok with the discarded loose change of the folk at the very top.

Trickle down economics is fine if it is based on real capitalism but not when it involves bank bailouts and ECB QE funny money. Personally I would have let the banks fail and instead of using insane amounts of money to bail out the banks, a much smaller amount could have been used to set up organized tent cities and soup kitchens so that anyone not paying their mortgage would have a place to sleep and have food in their belly. If that was done, these refuges would have been necessary for a year or two in order for the housing market and economy to bottom out and for organic economic growth to kick in.

Because we bailed out the banks and resolved nothing, the economy is doomed. I still think minimum wage is a terrible idea, again let the market decide where the bottom should be.

Wibbs · 10-09-2019 2:10pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Ireland was a conquered country. That was the reason we were poor. Do you think the Roman empire had a minimum wage? Of course not and neither did the British empire.

First countries become wealthy and foolishly they then introduce a minimum wage and they think the minimum wage made them wealthy when in fact it is making them poor.

Good christ you have a slim grasp of both history and economics. And logic. Comparing a tiny country with a small population and no big ticket natural resources to the Roman and British empires takes some bloody doing, and stretching.

Gregor has already pointed out the sheer scale of resource control both empires had. But here's an obvious bloody thought for you; the "Roman empire" had slaves. That's what their workforce economy was largely based upon, at both the industrial and local marketplace level. No wages involved(though some skilled household slaves earned a crust), so no minimum considerations could come into it. Even then some commentators at the time suggested some pay for household slaves was advantageous for the sake of all, ditto for some sort of social welfare system(which they ran for quite a while, with things like free, or low fixed price grain, land allowances and the like). The British empire really kicked off during the industrial revolution where most workers conditions and pay were appalling, and they had cheap, even "free" labour going on in their colonies.

These Market is King imported US BS libertarian types always amuse me. They assume that in a totally free market that they clamour for they'd be on top, they'd be a John Galt, but as even the briefest glance at history would show the overwhelming odds would be in favour of them being one of the great unwashed scraping along the poverty line. For an Irish person with this politic it's even more retarded, as it would be a near given that the only reason they have an education, healthcare and good working conditions is precisely because "The Market" was regulated. That's not to say over regulation is a good thing, but this isn't a monumentally simplistic either/or situation that some love to think.

Wibbs · 10-09-2019 2:13pm

So ignore all the other points of argument and then come out with this??

realitykeeper wrote: »

a much smaller amount could have been used to set up organized tent cities and soup kitchens

I must be on the crazy pills today, or need them after reading that.

James Brown · 10-09-2019 2:46pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree that banning a license plate is more of a classic right wing move, but in the last decade or so, the left genuinely has jumped all over the "ban anything offensive to anyone" bandwagon and bizarrely, it now tends to be the right who stand against that. We're living in very strange and disturbing times.

I think the rise of social media has played the big roll here. Public perception is money.
The idea that it's driven by the left is a marketing con from the Alt-Right and less alt conservative right. When you look at the U.S., Ireland, the U.K. and numerous other countries we aren't being led by 'the left' in any sense. Any media conglomerate owned by people considered liberal are hardly going to push any agenda that loses them money.
If enough people, left or right, are offended by something, their backers will drop them. It's about money, always was.
The more nefarious move is the right fooling people into this left led notion. That the left are trying to take away freedoms, ironically the left fought hard to get people. This is driven by religious extremists and billionaires who want to do what they like and have some lackeys using terms like 'triggered' and 'SJW' and 'snowflake' to demean and dismiss any criticism as they sneak in more right wing rule while their unwitting shills complain about somebody saying they didn't think Dave Chappelle's new special was funny.

realitykeeper · 10-09-2019 10:49pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Good christ you have a slim grasp of both history and economics. And logic. Comparing a tiny country with a small population and no big ticket natural resources to the Roman and British empires takes some bloody doing, and stretching.

Gregor has already pointed out the sheer scale of resource control both empires had. But here's an obvious bloody thought for you; the "Roman empire" had slaves. That's what their workforce economy was largely based upon, at both the industrial and local marketplace level. No wages involved(though some skilled household slaves earned a crust), so no minimum considerations could come into it. Even then some commentators at the time suggested some pay for household slaves was advantageous for the sake of all, ditto for some sort of social welfare system(which they ran for quite a while, with things like free, or low fixed price grain, land allowances and the like). The British empire really kicked off during the industrial revolution where most workers conditions and pay were appalling, and they had cheap, even "free" labour going on in their colonies.

These Market is King imported US BS libertarian types always amuse me. They assume that in a totally free market that they clamour for they'd be on top, they'd be a John Galt, but as even the briefest glance at history would show the overwhelming odds would be in favour of them being one of the great unwashed scraping along the poverty line. For an Irish person with this politic it's even more retarded, as it would be a near given that the only reason they have an education, healthcare and good working conditions is precisely because "The Market" was regulated. That's not to say over regulation is a good thing, but this isn't a monumentally simplistic either/or situation that some love to think.

Many societies used slaves up until the invention of the internal combustion engine and the practice then subsided. Slaves often became slaves because of debt, in other words they were in fact earning by reduction of their debt but at an extremely slow rate. Still, one should not get into debt if one is not certain of one`s ability to pay, come hell or high water. Market economies offer hope and the ying yang effect ensures that those who persevere, ultimately triumph.

10-09-2019 11:17pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Market economies offer hope and the ying yang effect ensures that those who persevere, ultimately triumph.

Garbage, it's those who ruthlessly harnass the market to their advantage who persevere. Trampling on unwitting pawns along the way, people used as mere vessels in achieving a means to an end. Your libertarian utopia is only a wet dream.

realitykeeper · 11-09-2019 4:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Garbage, it's those who ruthlessly harnass the market to their advantage who persevere. Trampling on unwitting pawns along the way, people used as mere vessels in achieving a means to an end. Your libertarian utopia is only a wet dream.

I do not really see myself as a libertarian. I am more attune with old money types. Capitalism helps people and the rich know this. Did you ever get a real world job without feeling grateful? Most people who are told they got the job are happy about it.

Obviously when the state employs you, its different. In that scenario, you are taking from taxpayers who don`t have much choice and your boss is just like you, a taker. It is the private sector boss who oozes generosity and it is to him/her we need to be thankful, though not exclusively of course. First God, then the good - which includes private sector employers.

Wanderer78 · 11-09-2019 5:39am

realitykeeper wrote:

I do not really see myself as a libertarian. I am more attune with old money types. Capitalism helps people and the rich know this. Did you ever get a real world job without feeling grateful? Most people who are told they got the job are happy about it.

All humans exist in the real world, as there is only one world, our complex economies require both private and public sector workers, in order to try create a functioning society.

realitykeeper wrote:

Obviously when the state employs you, its different. In that scenario, you are taking from taxpayers who don`t have much choice and your boss is just like you, a taker. It is the private sector boss who oozes generosity and it is to him/her we need to be thankful, though not exclusively of course. First God, then the good - which includes private sector employers.

You clearly have a prejudice towards public sector workers, but spare a thought for a moment about such workers. I was watching a serious incident unfolding Sunday afternoon, while hill walking, which sadly turned to tragedy, a serious emergency. Emergency personal were on site extremely quickly, many are in fact public sector workers, many volunteers, they done everything they could to try save a life. Are you going to truly tell me these public sector workers are 'takers' from our society?

Wibbs · 11-09-2019 8:57am

realitykeeper wrote: »

I do not really see myself as a libertarian. I am more attune with old money types. Capitalism helps people and the rich know this. Did you ever get a real world job without feeling grateful? Most people who are told they got the job are happy about it.

Obviously when the state employs you, its different. In that scenario, you are taking from taxpayers who don`t have much choice and your boss is just like you, a taker. It is the private sector boss who oozes generosity and it is to him/her we need to be thankful, though not exclusively of course. First God, then the good - which includes private sector employers.

Yep those crazy pills are still running strong. As for being grateful for a "real world job" :rolleyes:, I couldn't tell you, never had one, have always worked for myself, including at times employing others. Woohoo, I've been one of those oozing generosity. :rolleyes: Or not. I can tell you that what they were earning for me was more than they were earning for themselves. That's how generous I am... Oh and I never objected to paying tax for public services, merely the inefficiencies in the system. I do not want to live in some shithole dog eat dog society where only the strong survive and thrive making money on the backs of everyone else. There are enough third world crap holes like that to be going on with.

Look, I'm gonna start running out of these; :rolleyes: because the excuse to use them is too easy in coming. At this stage I can't work out if you're a windup merchant or wildly deluded.

realitykeeper · 11-09-2019 6:45pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

All humans exist in the real world, as there is only one world, our complex economies require both private and public sector workers, in order to try create a functioning society.

Holding your breath will not resolve the problem of air pollution. Sooner or later you will have to inhale deeply and then you get a lung full of toxins. The ignorance of a welfare state is manifesting itself in the form of the national debt. A deep recession will make it impossible to keep up service payments so then we will have a depression. Taxing the rich has consequences.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You clearly have a prejudice towards public sector workers, but spare a thought for a moment about such workers. I was watching a serious incident unfolding Sunday afternoon, while hill walking, which sadly turned to tragedy, a serious emergency. Emergency personal were on site extremely quickly, many are in fact public sector workers, many volunteers, they done everything they could to try save a life. Are you going to truly tell me these public sector workers are 'takers' from our society?

If they had been private sector workers their competence would have saved the life that was lost and by the way it was tragic, not a tragedy. Hamlet is a tragedy.

realitykeeper · 11-09-2019 6:54pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep those crazy pills are still running strong. As for being grateful for a "real world job" :rolleyes:, I couldn't tell you, never had one, have always worked for myself, including at times employing others. Woohoo, I've been one of those oozing generosity. :rolleyes: Or not. I can tell you that what they were earning for me was more than they were earning for themselves. That's how generous I am... Oh and I never objected to paying tax for public services, merely the inefficiencies in the system. I do not want to live in some shithole dog eat dog society where only the strong survive and thrive making money on the backs of everyone else. There are enough third world crap holes like that to be going on with.

Look, I'm gonna start running out of these; :rolleyes: because the excuse to use them is too easy in coming. At this stage I can't work out if you're a windup merchant or wildly deluded.

I am sure your employees did not begrudge you making a profit, - unless they were jealous in which case a psychotherapist is their only man.

Venezuela spent a lot on welfare and the like and it is a third world country because of it. Wealth comes from hard work and austerity. If you require lots of money to work hard, you are not being austere. High purchase costs are not conducive to high sales. This applies to everything including labour.

Timberrrrrrrr · 11-09-2019 7:03pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Holding your breath will not resolve the problem of air pollution. Sooner or later you will have to inhale deeply and then you get a lung full of toxins. The ignorance of a welfare state is manifesting itself in the form of the national debt. A deep recession will make it impossible to keep up service payments so then we will have a depression. Taxing the rich has consequences.

If they had been private sector workers their competence would have saved the life that was lost and by the way it was tragic, not a tragedy. Hamlet is a tragedy.

What an utterly despicable thing to say! Please show evidence that a private sector worker would have been able to save the life.

realitykeeper · 11-09-2019 7:37pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What an utterly despicable thing to say! Please show evidence that a private sector worker would have been able to save the life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow

Timberrrrrrrr · 11-09-2019 7:54pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow

Typical of you.

pinkyeye · 11-09-2019 8:28pm

How the hell did it get from number plates to this????

Wibbs · 11-09-2019 8:56pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

and by the way it was tragic, not a tragedy. Hamlet is a tragedy.

Get her. And you're incorrect to boot. He wrote "turned to tragedy". One might argue he misplaced an "a" - then again so did Neil Armstrong - but if he had typed your suggestion "turned into tragic", well that would have been.

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am sure your employees did not begrudge you making a profit, - unless they were jealous in which case a psychotherapist is their only man.

# clean up of rolleyes in aisle 5 #

Venezuela spent a lot on welfare and the like and it is a third world country because of it. Wealth comes from hard work and austerity. If you require lots of money to work hard, you are not being austere. High purchase costs are not conducive to high sales. This applies to everything including labour.

WUM, or deluded? Step right up and place your bets folks. Venezuela as an example? :pac::pac::pac: Avoid looking at Norway, Sweden etc. Well of course, wouldn't suit what passes for a viewpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow

Yup WUM, so fair play, credit where credit's due. The vid is classic, an advert at the end for your own painting of Ronnie Reagan.

An interesting snapshot of some core American thinking, the fear of "collectivism". It's always been a fear in that culture and the closest they may get to the idea is within their community and that community will be a homogeneous one. It's all about the plucky individual, the pioneer, ever afraid of someone taking their stuff. Circle the wagons! They never attack at night! Now it had one major advantage in that notions like facism and communism never took off there, even though both gained some popularity at times. Particularly a fair bit of the former. Charles Darwin unwittingly informed both political positions and one one area the US did take some interest in. Eugenics and it was popular for longer and before fascists came along in Europe. Survival of the fittest another. Allied to the Protestant mindset of predestination both took quite solid holds on the American psyche. But America is also the culture of contrasts, so on the other hand they give more per head to charity than nearly every other country in the west. And with a social welfare system that's nearing third world levels at times it is often sorely needed. Check out youtube and search for "how to live in your car" and the vast majority will be American voices telling you how. But I digress...

realitykeeper · 12-09-2019 3:44am

Wibbs wrote: »

WUM, or deluded? Step right up and place your bets folks. Venezuela as an example? :pac::pac::pac: Avoid looking at Norway, Sweden etc. Well of course, wouldn't suit what passes for a viewpoint.

Norway`s national debt is very low. Social programs are ok provided we can afford them. Ireland`s national debt is heading for a quarter of a trillion. This implies that we have lived beyond our means and we are still doing so. Ireland must stop issuing bonds and pay down the debt with our own resources. Norway and Ireland have similar populations but our national debt is nearly 2000 times that of Norway. Please don`t say oil is the reason for this, because Venezuela has a lot more oil and it is very poor.

Wanderer78 · 12-09-2019 8:44am

realitykeeper wrote:

Holding your breath will not resolve the problem of air pollution. Sooner or later you will have to inhale deeply and then you get a lung full of toxins. The ignorance of a welfare state is manifesting itself in the form of the national debt. A deep recession will make it impossible to keep up service payments so then we will have a depression. Taxing the rich has consequences.

Come on now , we all know what created the majority of our current national debt, and it had little or nothing to do with welfare spending, again it's very important to say, we were good little boys and girls before we 'aquired' the bulk of this debt, by running regular surpluses. It is also common for countries to never pay down their debts entirely, allowing it to role over continually, by just paying off the interest owed, without having adverse effects on their economy, this is common practice.

Taxing the rich certainly does have its consequences, history shows it can lead to much improved quality of life for most, as investments can be made into critical public services and systems that benefits all, including the wealthy, and creating a more equal society that's less likely to engage in serious conflict such as war, due to these facts. but since the implementation of policies largely based on 'the Washington consensus, otherwise known as neoliberal/neoclassical ideology, taxation has moved away from these plutocratic elements, and more towards things such as labour and consumption, also leading to a suppression of wage inflation, and a move towards asset price inflation, amongst other things, which truly only benefits the asset owning class, and have a guess who owns the majority of them!

Oh and again, you don't have this devine ability to accurately predict our economic future, no human has, and may never have, such is the complexity of such systems. will there be a future recession, of course there will be, or even a depression, possible, but who knows, but going on historical data, these will more than likely occur due to private debt, not public, as what's generally depicted by those that favour the Washington consensus, which is more ideologically based than fact based.

realitykeeper wrote:

If they had been private sector workers their competence would have saved the life that was lost and by the way it was tragic, not a tragedy. Hamlet is a tragedy.

Oh shut up, I watched those people try save that life, a combination of public, private and volunteers, all working in unison, in harmony, astonishing human beings, I'd imagine the family and friends of that person couldn't give a rats arse who employs them, they were just grateful, as was I, a mere onlooker.

Danzy · 12-09-2019 9:40am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Norway`s national debt is very low. Social programs are ok provided we can afford them. Ireland`s national debt is heading for a quarter of a trillion. This implies that we have lived beyond our means and we are still doing so. Ireland must stop issuing bonds and pay down the debt with our own resources. Norway and Ireland have similar populations but our national debt is nearly 2000 times that of Norway. Please don`t say oil is the reason for this, because Venezuela has a lot more oil and it is very poor.

We should stop issuing bonds??

So we can borrow now at rates well below inflation, reduce our debt burden much quicker but you think we shouldn't do they.

realitykeeper · 12-09-2019 4:56pm

Danzy wrote: »

We should stop issuing bonds??

So we can borrow now at rates well below inflation, reduce our debt burden much quicker but you think we shouldn't do they.

The national debt is still rising so the money is not being used to replace high interest debt with low interest debt, - it is simply increasing the debt. Besides, there is nothing normal about low interest long term bonds issued by countries with a lot of debt. Even Greece saw the interest on its bonds plummet within a few years of the credit crunch. What this tells us is the crisis will return but this time it will impact a lot more than banks and the stock market.

I expect a fiscal and bond market crisis, and not just imploding stock markets and re-failing banks.

realitykeeper · 12-09-2019 5:02pm

Mario Draghi made a statement today and in it, he said central banks can only do so much, and that macro prudential policies are needed. This means austerity. Lets hope the politicians were paying attention. Unfortunately, I doubt they took heed because it was just one remark in the middle of a lot of guff.

realitykeeper · 12-09-2019 5:13pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh shut up, I watched those people try save that life, a combination of public, private and volunteers, all working in unison, in harmony, astonishing human beings, I'd imagine the family and friends of that person couldn't give a rats arse who employs them, they were just grateful, as was I, a mere onlooker.

Let me explain where I am coming from. I think certain things are too important to be left to the public sector. Water works, healthcare, rescue services and such are examples of these things which are just too important not to privatize. I would fully support the government if it wanted to monopolize unimportant things like the sale of alcohol, tobacco products, gambling and cocaine.

Wanderer78 · 12-09-2019 5:16pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Mario Draghi made a statement today and in it, he said central banks can only do so much, and that macro prudential policies are needed. This means austerity. Lets hope the politicians were paying attention. Unfortunately, I doubt they took heed because it was just one remark in the middle of a lot of guff.

...and theres little or no evidence to support that austerity actually truly has any positive effects in society, anywhere on this planet, but plenty of evidence to support, its a train wreck of an idea

Wanderer78 · 12-09-2019 5:17pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Let me explain where I am coming from. I think certain things are too important to be left to the public sector. Water works, healthcare, rescue services and such are examples of these things which are just too important not to privatize. I would fully support the government if it wanted to monopolize unimportant things like the sale of alcohol, tobacco products, gambling and cocaine.

and where is your evidence to support that this privatisation truly does work in the benefit of all in society? unimportant, highly addictive substances and activities!!!!

Current affairs in Sweden

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