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Parents allowed baby to become severely malnourished on vegan diet

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    #32
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,052 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Nobody forcefeeds a baby dead animals, but do vegan parents consider breast milk to be non-vegan? If they do then I have instantly lost any sympathy I might have had for the various arguments.


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    #33
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    satguy wrote: »
    Vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses can sometimes blindly put ideology / lifestyle choices in the way of healthy choices.

    Let the child when old enough make up it's own mind up, and choose how he / she will eat or pray.

    I put convenience first. The kids eat what I eat, I'm not cooking multiple meals. If they want meat they can cook their own.


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    #34
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,052 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I put convenience first. The kids eat what I eat, I'm not cooking multiple meals. If they want meat they can cook their own.

    That's evidently what the Australian parents said.


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    #35
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    looksee wrote: »
    That's evidently what the Australian parents said.

    They should have done more research


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    #36
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    looksee wrote: »
    Nobody forcefeeds a baby dead animals, but do vegan parents consider breast milk to be non-vegan? If they do then I have instantly lost any sympathy I might have had for the various arguments.

    Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.


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    #37
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

    What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.


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    #38
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,052 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    How would doing more research have helped if they worked on the basis of 'they eat what I eat' and don't consider breast milk vegan? Which comes back to the question of - would vegan parents deny a newborn baby breast milk?


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    #39
    2Mad2BeMad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭2Mad2BeMad


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

    What about milk from a cows tit? Is that vegan


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    #40
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Donnielighto wrote: »
    What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.

    According to a quick google If you can't breast feed then you shouldn't adopt a vegan diet for a child. Seems there is no suitable vegan formula .

    While a vegan diet for a child is possible there is a greater risk of malnutrition unless it is extremely well planned.


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    #41
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

    Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?


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    #42
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    looksee wrote: »
    How would doing more research have helped if they worked on the basis of 'they eat what I eat' and don't consider breast milk vegan? Which comes back to the question of - would vegan parents deny a newborn baby breast milk?

    You're talking about a baby here. A baby can't eat what an adult eats and has different nutritional needs. They should have used the pregnancy to learn about how best to manage them.

    I post that my kids eat what I eat but mine aren't babies and are perfectly capable of making meat for themselves if they want. I would of course have no problem making a separate meal for a small child or baby.


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    #43
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    Donnielighto wrote: »
    What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.

    People get vegans and veganism wrong all the time, it is not about being perfect in any way. Vegan is where possible and practical to avoid the use of animals for food, entertainment, clothing etc. That's it, if you look at the vegan society website in the UK it has more info.

    If a mother, for whatever reason can not produce milk for her child it would be irresponsible and downright stupid to not use a formula. There are, however vegan formulas available (only recently) which fill the growing market. They are suitable from birth too.

    https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/vegan-baby-formula-what-you-need-to-know


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    #44
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    TCP/IP wrote: »
    Totally agree any parent can give their kids a bad diet no denying that. It does seem very irresponsible though to give a child a vegan only based diet especially in the young years.

    Whereas any old shoite from the frozen food section is grand


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    #45
    TCP/IP
    Subscribers Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭TCP/IP


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Whereas any old shoite from the frozen food section is grand

    No it’s not any nobody said that.


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    #46
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    dudara wrote: »
    Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

    It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

    When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

    So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

    But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.


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    #47
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

    When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

    So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

    But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

    Also it's fine considering "the animal" in case is completely on board you'd assume.


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    #48
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    dudara wrote: »
    Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

    'Non' trolling mod have a read here and answer the question yourself. It's quite an easy one.
    https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism


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    #49
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,433 ✭✭✭jackboy


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

    Northern Europeans have evolved to consume bovine milk so we are designed for it.


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    #50
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

    When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

    So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

    But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

    Considering that logic - plant food taken from another species is removed in order to harvest it.

    And yes I know the theory of sentience. Plants are sentient on a different level to us - the same doesn't stop it being speciest to suggest that their offspring were "designed for us" either

    Most animal species do not eat or predate their own kind.

    That said why is acceptable to take plants offspring (which are also in no way designed for us) - but not other species?


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    #51
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    The article does not state that a vegan diet is unbalanced or unhealthy. You do. The duration of my account bears no relevance to the discussion. Again, your statement is wrong.
    It tends to. Often the duration of an account and where that account posts suggests an "agenda" or it may just be a troll. You couldn't know these things because you haven't been around long enough! :D


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    #52
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    dudara wrote: »
    Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

    "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

    Breastfeeding your own child falls within the ethics of it. I guess what you mean is it's not plant-based, which is something different.


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    #53
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    TCP/IP wrote: »
    Totally agree any parent can give their kids a bad diet no denying that. It does seem very irresponsible though to give a child a vegan only based diet especially in the young years.
    As I originally posted, health authorities say it is fine, and plenty of people are vegan from birth. The poor diet for the child isn't veganism. It is just being dumb.


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    #54
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    The poor diet for the child isn't veganism. It is just being dumb.

    Agreed. And it's a rare event, so it's given great publicity. It's an outlier.

    Countless numbers of kids fed shoite diets of big macs and turkey twizzles, cheese string and processed cow milk, coke and fanta is never questioned.


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    #55
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    jackboy wrote: »
    Northern Europeans have evolved to consume bovine milk so we are designed for it.

    Some tolerate it, that does not mean it is designed for us. 75% of the words population is lactose intolerant. When I gave up dairy The benefits were massive, reduced to 0 digestive discomfort, sinus and respiratory issues disappeared. It is in no way suitable for human consumption.


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    #56
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    is_that_so wrote: »
    It tends to. Often the duration of an account and where that account posts suggests an "agenda" or it may just be a troll. You couldn't know these things because you haven't been around long enough! :D

    I am well aware of how discussion forums work. Boards is not the only one in existence. I post in different forums, not just related to veganism. However when I see stupid posts like the OP I feel the need to point out that it is wrong. That is not trolling nor have an agenda. If you are looking for an agenda you can find one much in this thread.


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    #57
    realmoonunit
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭realmoonunit


    gozunda wrote: »
    Considering that logic - plant food taken from another species is removed in order to harvest it.

    And yes I know the theory of sentience. Plants are sentient on a different level to us - the same doesn't stop it being speciest to suggest that their offspring were "designed for us" either

    Most animal species do not eat or predate their own kind.

    That said why is acceptable to take plants offspring (which are also in no way designed for us) - but not other species?

    Your logic is outstanding. This typical BS of plants are sentient etc, plants have evolved to be static, they contain no central nervous system etc. Trying to compare plants and animals is just plain madness.


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    #58
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Some resources relating to raising kids vegan

    https://medium.com/@TheAnimalist/yes-you-can-raise-kids-vegan-8441f0bcd79d


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    #59
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,433 ✭✭✭jackboy


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    Some tolerate it, that does not mean it is designed for us. 75% of the words population is lactose intolerant. When I gave up dairy The benefits were massive, reduced to 0 digestive discomfort, sinus and respiratory issues disappeared. It is in no way suitable for human consumption.

    As I said Northern Europeans evolved to consume it. It is absolutely suitable for consumption by those of Northern European extract. There are of course a small percentage of northern Europeans who are lactose intolerant just like there is a small percentage that have an intolerance with certain plant based foods.

    Most of the rest of the world did not evolve this ability to consume it but in this part of the world most people are designed to consume it. This is not an opinion by the way, it is scientific fact.


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    #60
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    Your logic is outstanding. This typical BS of plants are sentient etc, plants have evolved to be static, they contain no central nervous system etc. Trying to compare plants and animals is just plain madness.

    If you are confused please read the comment to which I replied. Of note it is not my 'logic ' - it was the claims made regarding 'harvesting another species offspring' etc to which I replied and referred to the implicatiions regarding eating other species including plants which also are in "no way designed for us"

    And no plant sentience is not 'bull****' as you casually dismiss it. It may be different to our own sentience - It is however a scientific fact. This is well known and has been extensively studied in the last couple of years.
    the realisation that we have some things in common with plants might be an opportunity to accept that we are more plant-like than we would like to think, just as plants are more animal-like than we usually assume.

    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond
    "We are convinced that plants are cognitive and intelligent, so we use techniques and methods normally used to study cognitive animals.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34849374

    You may disagree with those facts. But that is a completely different discussion.


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    #61
    Redhighking
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Redhighking


    realmoonunit wrote: »
    People get vegans and veganism wrong all the time, it is not about being perfect in any way. Vegan is where possible and practical to avoid the use of animals for food, entertainment, clothing etc. That's it, if you look at the vegan society website in the UK it has more info.

    If a mother, for whatever reason can not produce milk for her child it would be irresponsible and downright stupid to not use a formula. There are, however vegan formulas available (only recently) which fill the growing market. They are suitable from birth too.

    https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/vegan-baby-formula-what-you-need-to-know

    Not sure where I stand on this point but that source you provided above is incredibly biased.


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