Rent Freeze - the mechanics of

aido79 · 18-03-2020 6:02pm

Its vague enough for landlords with a mortgage but what about landlords without a mortgage? Are they just expected to take the hit and give 3 months free rent and lose that income?

Eric_Noon · 18-03-2020 6:03pm

aido79 wrote: »

Its vague enough for landlords with a mortgage but what about landlords without a mortgage? Are they just expected to take the hit and give 3 months free rent and lose that income?

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/be74d3-covid-19-pandemic-unemployment-payment/?fbclid=IwAR3EfiL2hRnvCUKwW1hEilETLfjvdojNZsRdekg-kESCHQsCQiSHrlpIw4Y

Social welfare have rolled out the COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment.

Self emplyed or Employee, you will get this payment into your account.

aido79 · 18-03-2020 6:04pm

Eric_Noon wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/be74d3-covid-19-pandemic-unemployment-payment/?fbclid=IwAR3EfiL2hRnvCUKwW1hEilETLfjvdojNZsRdekg-kESCHQsCQiSHrlpIw4Y

Am I supposed to take that as a serious reply?

Tacitus Kilgore · 18-03-2020 6:04pm

aido79 wrote: »

Its vague enough for landlords with a mortgage but what about landlords without a mortgage? Are they just expected to take the hit and give 3 months free rent and lose that income?

Yes, their (for this example: presumably unemployed) tenants are expected to take the hit of the loss of their own income through no fault of their own either.

18-03-2020 6:05pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

If it's mortgage free the landlord should do what's right. Now is not the time for profiteering off assets, Many people are basically volunteering to be unemployed at the moment for the greater good. Losing out on a bit of free money because one owns an asset is barely a contribution but would make a huge difference.

If rent only covers 5% of payment on a property it should not be rented, that's terrible business.

Whether they freeze rent or not, some tenants won't be able to pay full rent, its up to the landlord how they deal with it then. Eviction won't be the answer though.

Just a moment here, charging legal market rent is not profiteering, it is being paid for providing a service. And rent income is not “free money”, it is taxable income from providing that service. Get down off the high horse.

Eric_Noon · 18-03-2020 6:05pm

aido79 wrote: »

Am I supposed to take that as a serious reply?

yes, many many people are losing their jobs and earning 0, this is the governments answer for now!

aido79 · 18-03-2020 6:06pm

Eric_Noon wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/be74d3-covid-19-pandemic-unemployment-payment/?fbclid=IwAR3EfiL2hRnvCUKwW1hEilETLfjvdojNZsRdekg-kESCHQsCQiSHrlpIw4Y

Social welfare have rolled out the COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment.

Self emplyed or Employee, you will get this payment into your account.

And what if they're not unemployed and just happen to own a rental property outright?

Zulu · 18-03-2020 6:08pm

Kevg268 wrote: »

I'm an accidental landlord and when I had to leave my house I got in a tenant. He has been hit and miss paying but has always maintained the house. I'm tax compliant and above board but I didn't tell the mortgage company that I was getting a tenant in when I was moving. My accountant told me not to tell them when I enquired from him, it was 2011. If I contact the mortgage company now, as tenant has lost his job, will they assist in a mortgage holiday or am i asking for problems.

If you are on a tracker I'd be very very careful. The tracker could be only for PPR, and a change from that could provide them an out to move you to another product. The banks have proven to be ruthless...

Tacitus Kilgore · 18-03-2020 6:10pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Just a moment here, charging legal market rent is not profiteering, it is being paid for providing a service. And rent income is not “free money”, it is taxable income from providing that service. Get down off the high horse.

Yes it is, my current house - rented - is 1350/month, 2 years ago it was 1000/month, 2 years before that it was 700/month.

There's no mortgage on it, it's a kip that's never been updated since it was built with single glazed windows an cavity block walls in 1983.

Why does the landlord need to raise the price "iN LiNe WiTh ThE mArKeT" every 2 years? He knows there are no other suitable properties in the area so what choice do we have but to line his pockets? It's blatant profiteering of a basic need, how is it anything else?

Maybe a few lads like him will find out what being knocked off a high horse really means.

jrosen · 18-03-2020 6:11pm

I would think any landlord with no mortgage will just work out a plan with their tenant. Maybe they will take the hit but maybe they will just allow a break and then increase payments once the tenants are back working again! Anyones guess.

RubyGlee · 18-03-2020 6:12pm

My landlord messaged me to say he won’t be looking for this months rent. I told him I’m still working for now so would prefer to pay this months and that would give me time if I do get laid off to sort out social welfare. I’m sure they will bring out some emergency rent benefit for those of us who will only need a short term option

18-03-2020 6:14pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Yes it is, my current house - rented - is 1350/month, 2 years ago it was 1000/month, 2 years before that it was 700/month.

There's no mortgage on it, it's a kip that's never been updated since it was built with single glazed windows an cavity block walls in 1983.

Why does the landlord need to raise the price "iN LiNe WiTh ThE mArKeT" every 2 years? He knows there are no other suitable properties in the area so what choice do we have but to line his pockets? It's blatant profiteering of a basic need, how is it anything else?

Maybe a few lads like him will find out what being knocked off a high horse really means.

Ah here, that’s just a rant about historical rent increases. If the LL increased rent within the regulations, they have done absolutely nothing wrong and there is not word of LLs taking advantage of this current situation to raise rents or evict tenants.

If you feel the LL has done something wrong, contact the RTB.

Pkiernan · 18-03-2020 6:14pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

If it's mortgage free the landlord should do what's right. Now is not the time for profiteering off assets, Many people are basically volunteering to be unemployed at the moment for the greater good. Losing out on a bit of free money because one owns an asset is barely a contribution but would make a huge difference.

If rent only covers 5% of payment on a property it should not be rented, that's terrible business.

Whether they freeze rent or not, some tenants won't be able to pay full rent, its up to the landlord how they deal with it then. Eviction won't be the answer though.

I agree with you that tenants may need a hand.

Just curious as to whether you'll give to tenants in need as well? Or are you not willing to help people less fortunate than yourself?

Tacitus Kilgore · 18-03-2020 6:18pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

I agree with you that tenants may need a hand.

Just curious as to whether you'll give to tenants in need as well? Or are you not willing to help people less fortunate than yourself?

Haven't much to give financially but did do the shopping and pharmacy run for some neighbours and a family next town over who are quarantined atm.

I'm doing my bit, I don't think its too much to ask everyone to do what they can

Edgware · 18-03-2020 6:18pm

Unfortunately history has shown us that there will always be racketeeers, spivs and black marketters who will take advantage of shortages, weather extremities, natural disasters etc.
This applies to every level of society. There will be tenants who will do their utmost to honour their commitments and their will be tenants who see it as an opportunity to welch. There will be decent landlords who appreciate the difficulties their tenants are in and there will be landlords who act despicably and put people under pressure

utmbuilder · 18-03-2020 6:20pm

150,000 jobs lost, and various associations saying another 200,000 more

people need to re-skill quickly, its a disaster tenants and for landlords.

With rents so high, both are going to be exceptionally vulnerable.

The landlords will have the banks to deal with, the tenants wont.

Its a mess, its a real mess, fair enough if a landlord had bad credit from a buy to let but the ones who don't
should not end up screwed.

18-03-2020 6:25pm

utmbuilder wrote: »

people need to re-skill quickly, its a disaster tenants and for landlords.

I dont think people need to re-skill, as such, though. Most people will walk back into their same job. Most people are just on an indefinite break, I'd say, and will just have to "weather the storm" for the moment.

Samuel T. Cogley · 18-03-2020 6:31pm

The other issue is it isn't just a mortgage that needs to be covered. Other expenses aren't negligible. There's still insurance, maintenance and management fees to be paid.

18-03-2020 6:56pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The other issue is it isn't just a mortgage that needs to be covered. Other expenses aren't negligible. There's still insurance, maintenance and management fees to be paid.

We're all f*cked, landlords need to accept that, now.
I'm a freelancer who has lost every gig I had booked (full book inc tours to France, Norway and Oz) from now until possibly Sept.

How am I meant to pay 1,000pm rent on dole of €203 a week?

Who knows how long this is going to last? I'm gonna make sure I can feed my family before even contemplating rent. I haven't heard from my landlord yet. Rent is due on the 1st, and I'll wait to see what the govt announce by the 28th before getting in touch with them.

Landlords are gonna have to take the hit as the rest of the public are.

There is nothing special about you as a landlord, sorry.

LeineGlas · 18-03-2020 6:57pm

jrosen wrote: »

I was only thinking the same. Im a landlord and the property has a mortgage on it. So I wont be allowing any rent break.The mortgage still has to be paid. Even if I got a break on the mortgage, it will be tagged onto the end for me and ultimately I will take the hit.

I dont see how there could be a break for renters.

Why do you need a break on your mortgage if you are still taking rent?

cefh17 · 18-03-2020 7:02pm

LeineGlas wrote: »

Why do you need a break on your mortgage if you are still taking rent?

Because he's greedy

18-03-2020 7:12pm

cefh17 wrote: »

Because he's greedy

Because as much as he would like to help, it is unrealistic to expect the LL to absorb all the cost of rent not being paid. It just will not work.

cefh17 · 18-03-2020 7:15pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Because as much as he would like to help, it is unrealistic to expect the LL to absorb all the cost of rent not being paid. It just will not work.

What cost? He'd be having a holiday on his mortgage too.

I doubt he'll give the tenant at the end of the mortgage 3 months free rent to cancel out this mortgage holiday.

If he gets no mortgage holiday then fair enough, but even then you'd hope given the situation that allowances can be made where possible

18-03-2020 7:18pm

cefh17 wrote: »

What cost? He'd be having a holiday on his mortgage too.

I doubt he'll give the tenant at the end of the mortgage 3 months free rent to cancel out this mortgage holiday.

If he gets no mortgage holiday then fair enough, but even then you'd hope given the situation that allowances can be made where possible

If you go back and read a few pages, you will see that tagging extra months on at the end of the mortgage term does not benefit a landlord who sells before the term has elapsed. The LL still has 3 months with no rental income and no repayment of capital and interest.

And it does not account for ancillary costs also mentioned.

jrosen · 18-03-2020 7:34pm

LeineGlas wrote: »

Why do you need a break on your mortgage if you are still taking rent?

I wont need a break on the mortgage if my tenant continues to pay.

If my tenant stops paying because they A) cant or they

see this as an opportunity to take advantage of then I will have to look at my options and see how flexible my bank are.

18-03-2020 7:36pm

jrosen wrote: »

I wont need a break on the mortgage if my tenant continues to pay.

If my tenant stops paying because they A) cant or they see this as an opportunity to take advantage of then I will have to look at my options and see how flexible my bank are.

Results of meeting just announced, you can apply for 3 month mortgage pause.

Fol20 · 18-03-2020 7:39pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

If it's mortgage free the landlord should do what's right. Now is not the time for profiteering off assets, Many people are basically volunteering to be unemployed at the moment for the greater good. Losing out on a bit of free money because one owns an asset is barely a contribution but would make a huge difference.

If rent only covers 5% of payment on a property it should not be rented, that's terrible business.

Whether they freeze rent or not, some tenants won't be able to pay full rent, its up to the landlord how they deal with it then. Eviction won't be the answer though.

So one the one side you want people to have a nice side and be socially responsible yet you also understand what terrible business practices are.. You do realise that both of these are like oil and water.

Fol20 · 18-03-2020 7:44pm

cefh17 wrote: »

Because he's greedy

Because they didnt read what he said properly and just go to the usual ll are greedy because they provide a service an actually expect to be paid of this service

18-03-2020 7:45pm

Fol20 wrote: »

So one the one side you want people to have a nice side and be socially responsible yet you also understand what terrible business practices are.. You do realise that both of these are like oil and water.

It will be interesting to see how the “professional” landlords respond to this. Will the REITs and forward funded landlords be willing to absorb losses.

Fol20 · 18-03-2020 7:48pm

Dav010 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how the “professional” landlords respond to this. Will the REITs and forward funded landlords be willing to absorb losses.

Very good point, they are already taking a hit as it is.

LeineGlas · 18-03-2020 9:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Foresight on the tenants part to have money to cover times without income?

"Don't be poor", why didn't I think of that earlier.

transik · 18-03-2020 9:29pm

jrosen wrote: »

I was only thinking the same. Im a landlord and the property has a mortgage on it. So I wont be allowing any rent break.The mortgage still has to be paid. Even if I got a break on the mortgage, it will be tagged onto the end for me and ultimately I will take the hit.

I dont see how there could be a break for renters.

My landlord property is payed off a long time ago, so he doesn’t have any mortgage on it at the moment.

He could very easily absorb some of that rent not to mention flat already has a ballooned rent on it just because its in Dublin.
After all those years with no maintenance and constantly refusing to fix mould in the flat 3 months with no rent seems like a fair deal

DubCount · 18-03-2020 9:37pm

A 3 month rent holiday is coming IMHO. The nature of renting is such that you cant add the unpaid rent onto the end of the contract like you can with a mortgage. Most tenants who are in need of the holiday, will be unable to save up that amount of money by the end of the lease. Its also next to impossible to separate the "cant pays" from the "wont pays" so I reckon the holiday will be across the board. Landlords with a mortgage will be offered a corresponding mortgage repayment holiday (added to the end of the mortgage).

I see little chance of very much help for landlords. Many businesses are suffering. General business supports for other businesses will be available to Landlords big and small. There may be some kind of tax credit system to partially make up the loss. Ultimately though, this is going to cost Landlords money. As usual, the inherent conflict between the rental sector being "a business" and "a social service" at the same time is going to be spun to the cost of Landlords.

18-03-2020 9:37pm

transik wrote: »

My landlord property is payed off a long time ago, so he doesn’t have any mortgage on it at the moment.

He could very easily absorb some of that rent not to mention flat already has a ballooned rent on this just because its in Dublin.
After all those years with no maintenance and constantly refusing to fix mould in the flat 3 months with no rent seems like a fair deal

Why are you assuming he can easily absorb the loss in rent? Are you privy to his accounts?

This feeds into the notion that all landlords are rich and have no other costs nor debts to pay.

Jet Black · 18-03-2020 10:03pm

transik wrote: »

My landlord property is payed off a long time ago, so he doesn’t have any mortgage on it at the moment.

He could very easily absorb some of that rent not to mention flat already has a ballooned rent on it just because its in Dublin.
After all those years with no maintenance and constantly refusing to fix mould in the flat 3 months with no rent seems like a fair deal

Thinking the same about my tenant. They can still easily pay, I know that won't be out of work because of what they do. Should I be expected to let them take a rent break too?

The Student · 18-03-2020 10:37pm

Why can't tenants apply for a loan from the bank to cover rent?

Or the govt reduce the tax to offset the net income the landlord loses?

Yes we are in difficult times but both landlord and tenant need to take some of the fallout.

The Student · 18-03-2020 10:43pm

Eric_Noon wrote: »

Call utility bill companys and explain your situation, thats what i did!

Apart from spotify and phone bill I now have no bills due until May, and if i am not in a position to pay my bills come May, the companys will be told just that.

Let me play devils advocate. Suppose your tenant stops paying despite the fact you gave them a break. How likely do you think the RTB will evict them even when we return to some sort of normality. I am genuinely curious.

Vita nova · 18-03-2020 10:58pm

At the very least landlords should directly pass on a mortgage break but not necessarily offer a complete rent break, however it may be academic if the tenant simply can't pay or if the government forces a rent break(is that even possible?).

At its simplest, if the tenant pays Y rent and the mortgage repayment is X then the tenant should only pay Y-X rent for the duration of the break. The landlord will lose rent as the missed mortgage payments will have to be repaid later but given the situation it's not a big sacrifice - provided the break doesn't last more than a few months.

crkcvnirl · 18-03-2020 11:09pm

Hi All,
If I'm understanding some posts on this thread correctly theres chat asking who'll make up the payments at the end of a tenancy.

Before I delve in and give my pennies worth I want to put on the record that I'm a landlord with a number of properties and I certainly do not relish in anyway a drop in my income.

So now for my pennies worth.....

At this moment in time we're looking at the most devastating event ever to hit us economically and socially in modern times. Even in the depths of the crash the likes of Pennies and BTs never even closed, but here we have them doing just that today. There are facebook posts about thriving business closing for the sake of staff and their customers. Many may never reopen.

Looking at the Italian situation this bloody virus has the ability to kill young and old alike, irrespective of their property portfolio or bank balance.

There are doctors, nurses, first responders, gardai, hospital cleaning staff, shop workers, bus drivers, truck drivers, warehouse operatives working themselves ragged and many putting themselves directly in the way of very real harm to help our very ill sisters, brothers, mothers, dads, relatives and our friends.

A lot of those heroes are our tenants, so I for one don't give a hoot about having to pay a few extra quid in 6, 7, 10 or even 15 years time. It's small money by comparison to the heroic work those ppl are doing for us.

At this time of national emergency don't come out with the bs about who'll pay for what and when, if your tenant can't pay rent for a month or 2 so what, you'll get a mortgage break and you’ll also pay nothing.

Lets say the mortgage holiday taken is for 3 months as mentioned by the Finance Minister earlier, the bank involved would just add the 3 months on to the end of the overall term. The interest rates are so low, 3 months interest added on would be buttons in the greater scheme of things. Also sounds like some ppl have forgotten that bank loan interest is an expense and can be written off anyway.

I'll be calling my own bank tomorrow to see what needs to be done in case my tenants need a dig out. I'll happily apply for a mortgage holiday the very moment they need it.

Please don’t come back at me whinging, just do the right thing and share some good karma!

boege · 18-03-2020 11:45pm

I am not sure I understand people equating mortgage breaks with rent breaks One is along term financial vehicle and the other a short/medium term one. Also many landlords do not have mortgages so in practice this becomes a rent break and so it is very hard to apply it in an even-handed way.

In practice, and I am old enough to have seen this before, I expect the arse to fall out of the rental market. At a macro level the ability to pay high rents will disappear, as many lose their jobs. There are already stories of many non-nationals 'heading home' as they have no work here now. Tenants will act quickly to seek better quality accommodation and prices will fall as landlords of sh*tholes price race to the bottom to fill vacancies.

I am both a landlord and a farther of a son renting who has lost his job in another city. He is thinking of coming home as he cannot afford to pay the rent. His house has already lost a number of tenants - its a big house.

As a landlord I have no choice but to respond to this new reality. If my tenant is in trouble and can prove it, I will act with consideration.

The market will correct itself and a new reality will emerge. I do not know where it will stop as we are truly in crystal ball territory.

LuckyLloyd · 18-03-2020 11:46pm

Dav010 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how the “professional” landlords respond to this. Will the REITs and forward funded landlords be willing to absorb losses.

What can they do about it? This thing and the necessary state reaction is much bigger than their interests. They have no choice in the matter.

utmbuilder · 19-03-2020 12:10am

my numbers are probably way off here,
so if a landlords mortgage is 1500 a month, and at 4%

3 months is 4500, plus 4% annually over the term of the mortgage another 5500?

10,000 loss from 3 months? or have i got it wrong.

rob316 · 19-03-2020 12:33am

jrosen wrote: »

I was only thinking the same. Im a landlord and the property has a mortgage on it. So I wont be allowing any rent break.The mortgage still has to be paid. Even if I got a break on the mortgage, it will be tagged onto the end for me and ultimately I will take the hit.

I dont see how there could be a break for renters.

Call it the cost of doing business. There will be a lot of pain for everybody, you should be no exception.

rob316 · 19-03-2020 12:39am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I have an apartment rented out, on which there is still a mortgage to be paid. If i get a 3 month holiday on the repayments, i'd give a 3 month break on the rent - it will leave me out of pocket which is a bit shít (and which i can ill afford) but i don't really see another option. The 3 months "free" rent will just have to be tacked on at the end of the mortgage, finish paying 3 months later than planned - boo hoo!

These are unusual times, we're all going to have to do unusual things!

Theres a decent skin, 3 months is nothing on a 25 year mortgage.

FAILSAFE 00 · 19-03-2020 1:32am

Fann Linn wrote: »

Judging by some comments here I can see emergency protections being introduced for tenants.

Instead of taking 1 year to evict it will now be 2 lol.

transik · 19-03-2020 2:22am

Jet Black wrote: »

Thinking the same about my tenant. They can still easily pay, I know that won't be out of work because of what they do. Should I be expected to let them take a rent break too?

Well i know nothing about your tenant and what they do for living but i was affected by the outbreak and i dont work since saturday.all i got is emergency 203€ payment

transik · 19-03-2020 2:27am

Dav010 wrote: »

Why are you assuming he can easily absorb the loss in rent? Are you privy to his accounts?

This feeds into the notion that all landlords are rich and have no other costs nor debts to pay.

We just know. he owns a lot of apartment blocks around D7 and lives in spain so its safe to say he is doing alright
Mean time flat receives zero maintance and i may get new paint on the walls in 2045 not to mention he tried to increase the rent more then he is allowed thank god flat is only 5 min walk from threshold

Tacitus Kilgore · 19-03-2020 9:18am

Fol20 wrote: »

So one the one side you want people to have a nice side and be socially responsible yet you also understand what terrible business practices are.. You do realise that both of these are like oil and water.

There's your problem, you seem to think that in order to be successful in business you have to be socially irresponsible. "I'm alright jack" - just written a different way.

GreeBo · 19-03-2020 9:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Landlords are gonna have to take the hit as the rest of the public are.

There is nothing special about you as a landlord, sorry.

Are you going to use the same attitude when you do your shopping?
"Sorry Mr Lidl, you are not special so I'm not paying you for this food I'm bringing home"?

GreeBo · 19-03-2020 9:26am

LeineGlas wrote: »

"Don't be poor", why didn't I think of that earlier.

Well you are expecting the landlord to have had the foresight to save for a rainy day, why not the rest of us. Someone above just said that landlords arent special...yet you want them to be special in this regard.

Funny that.

Rent Freeze - the mechanics of

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