Knocknacara Houses knocked for access?

L'Enfer du Nord · 24-08-2015 9:43pm

?Cee?view wrote: »

Looks interesting and very similar to a route I take by scooter/motorbike (extremely under utilised modes of transport in Galway), but having used most of this route, I can't see why you'd need to knock a wall in either Kingston or Millar's Lane? Can you not just turn off Kingston straight into Manor Drive and from there straight onto Millar's Lane?

[The alignment of the route was slightly out on original attachment, correct version attached]

The knocking down of a wall would be between Ross Gael off the Old Rahoon road and Miller's Lane, you could go up Old Rahoon Road itself and on to Millers Lane, but I've tried to keep off main roads as much as possible. Similarly the other wall to be breached is between 'The Gardens' off the top of Thread needle and Kingston. The route is already more or less doable. The issues are poor surface in places, too narrow, barriers/bollards and curbs with out ramps. A few button operated bike/pedestrian crossings would probably help too. Not sure is having a bike path through hospital grounds is a great idea, might be possible to fit it on the grass verge on the stretch of Seamus Quirke Road between the roundabout and Newcastle Road.

L'Enfer du Nord · 24-08-2015 9:59pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I know that's just one suggested trip, ie Salthill to UHG/NUIG, but I can't imagine why anyone would need to take anything other than the most direct route in that scenario.

Yes but its not a cycle path designed to get you from Salthill to NUIG ASAP. It a cycle path design to get you from WDR/Knocknacarra to NUIG safely and comfortably or to Salthill, or to Dunnes for example. I can also think of quite a few suitable spurs off it.

Yes a map of short cuts would be a double edged sword, I mean any randomer could see it, then god knows what could happen.

?Cee?view · 25-08-2015 11:13am

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

[The alignment of the route was slightly out on original attachment, correct version attached]

The knocking down of a wall would be between Ross Gael off the Old Rahoon road and Miller's Lane, you could go up Old Rahoon Road itself and on to Millers Lane, but I've tried to keep off main roads as much as possible. Similarly the other wall to be breached is between 'The Gardens' off the top of Thread needle and Kingston. The route is already more or less doable. The issues are poor surface in places, too narrow, barriers/bollards and curbs with out ramps. A few button operated bike/pedestrian crossings would probably help too. Not sure is having a bike path through hospital grounds is a great idea, might be possible to fit it on the grass verge on the stretch of Seamus Quirke Road between the roundabout and Newcastle Road.

I'd be inclined to suggest that rather than going through the Gardens, you'd take it to the top of Threadneedle and align it to the inside of the wide "Layby" and bus stop area on the left. You could then run a straight route right along the inside of the golf course wall, the whole way parallel to Kingston Road with a signalled crossing for pedestrians and cyclists across to Manor Drive and maybe further down near Kingston Gardens. Those crossings would also slow traffic which habitually speeds on that road.

L'Enfer du Nord · 25-08-2015 12:14pm

?Cee?view wrote: »

I'd be inclined to suggest that rather than going through the Gardens, you'd take it to the top of Threadneedle and align it to the inside of the wide "Layby" and bus stop area on the left. You could then run a straight route right along the inside of the golf course wall, the whole way parallel to Kingston Road with a signalled crossing for pedestrians and cyclists across to Manor Drive and maybe further down near Kingston Gardens. Those crossings would also slow traffic which habitually speeds on that road.

You are probably right, I don't live in the area any more so I can't remember the exact layout.
I wanted to put in a few wall breaches just to keep the post on topic

So what's stopping Galway city council from doing something like this?

Lack of funds?
Lack of will?
Lack of imagination?
Lack of demand?
Likely objections from residents?
Likely objections from motorists?

?Cee?view · 25-08-2015 1:59pm

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

So what's stopping Galway city council from doing something like this?

Lack of funds? - Surely it'd cost feck all?
Lack of will? - Yes, it would take effort
Lack of imagination? - Undoubtedly
Lack of demand? - I think this could be a case of build it and they will come. Unfortunately, many who advocate for these type of improvements do so by aligning themselves against other transport options thereby casting themselves as cranks. They work against themselves.
Likely objections from residents? - I think on the routes you've suggested there would be little to object to. Routes already exist. By taking a few feet from the golf club which is currently bushes and scrub, few residents could object.
Likely objections from motorists?- Why? I can't see that it would have much impact on motorists. It has to be accepted that if the bypass is going ahead, the area "within" the bypass has to be more amenable to other forms of transport.

...

pmasterson95 · 26-08-2015 6:23pm

Its a great thing the "reactionaries" outnumber the crackpots. These people wont loose there homes to let people who are too lazy to walk around obstacles win. Sanity will prevail it normally does.

FortySeven · 26-08-2015 7:51pm

loose there homes

Lose their?

Thank god for the sane, willing to walk unrequired miles for the illusion of safety. Priceless.

what_traffic · 26-08-2015 10:45pm

These two walls should be knocked.

https://goo.gl/maps/UpSsC

and
https://goo.gl/maps/RcAcw

Windfield Gardens to KnocknaCarra Park

John_Rambo · 27-08-2015 12:31am

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Its a great thing the "reactionaries" outnumber the crackpots. These people wont loose there homes to let people who are too lazy to walk around obstacles win. Sanity will prevail it normally does.

Laziness is jumping in to the car! We need to stop doing this for short journeys, and "Lose their homes" is a bit strong! CPO's are fine for other means of transport like roads and motorways, surely the lazy way to travel! Why not the same treatment for walking and cycling? We need to go back to livable, walkable cities with easy access to public transport.

You're grandfather/mother would think nothing of cycling walking or even running eight to ten miles to get somewhere. And, they would have cycled a heavier bike than what's available now!

Modern living is fantastic, but sometimes the older ways are how people survived longer, fitter, stronger and faster. We could all do with looking back on our heritage and learn from our elders. Rural Irish stock were once a hardy, tough pack. No problem walking or cycling for miles.

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 9:43am

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Its a great thing the "reactionaries" outnumber the crackpots. These people wont loose there homes to let people who are too lazy to walk around obstacles win. Sanity will prevail it normally does.

"Too Lazy" me arse. The walled estates of Knocknacarra are a joke. Here's an example of where opening up a few wall would reduce a 4km round trip to the supermarket to a 1.2 km trip, or 1 hrs walk to 15 mins walk. Lets say you walk to the shop twice a week, this would save you six hours a month. If you were doing this with a buggy or a small child you'd be saving even more time.

When it comes to walking to and from school twice a day the savings made would be even greater. The car dependency of our dispersed rural settlement pattern is very unfortunate. The nature of this is evidenced by the effects of the drinking driving ban on rural social life. Why I wonder is considered a good thing to recreate this dependency in urban areas?

Personally I don't see CPOing of houses to create paths happening. I'm not sure if the original advocates were just making a point in relation to the expressway or if they were entirely serious. It's an extreme reaction to an extremely stupid planning regime. Personally I'd knock down walls where possible and ensure all future developments are permeable. I wouldn't ban dead-ends completely but I set a limit on the number of units that could be more than a certain walking distance from an exit. I'd let estates which couldn't be opened up with out knocking houses stay preserved as a monument to the F**k you just get into a car Galway Celtic Tiger mentality.

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 10:04am

Below is a video about an infamous wall built between a council estate and a private estate in Oxford in the 1930s. I actually spent much of my childhood in a private estate between two council estates. One of the council estates is perhaps better described as a slum, two rows of terraced houses bulit c.1900 very bad conditions at the time. We were separated from one by a field and a small river from the other by a wall and some over grown waste ground. Kids from all three estates would cross these, every summer makeshift bridges were built. The field and waste ground are now parks, there are two bridges across the river and the wall has been knocked down. All the houses are worth far more than the were before the opening up. As I've said the funny thing about Knocknacarra is that the walls aren't even there for the purposes of social segregation. Maybe its some kind of weird leap of the imagination: gated community = rich, pseudo gated community must be increase the value of my property.

Zzippy · 27-08-2015 11:11am

I actually don't think these estates were constructed as gated communities or with privacy in mind - not having a second exit allowed more space for houses to be built and more profit for developers. Squeeze as many houses as you can into the land you have, don't waste space on green spaces or laneways, and maximise the return. The fault lies with the planners who accepted this. Preventing "randomers" walking past is merely a side effect of developer's greed, not a feature by design.

L'Enfer du Nord · 27-08-2015 12:17pm

Zzippy wrote: »

I actually don't think these estates were constructed as gated communities or with privacy in mind - not having a second exit allowed more space for houses to be built and more profit for developers. Squeeze as many houses as you can into the land you have, don't waste space on green spaces or laneways, and maximise the return. The fault lies with the planners who accepted this. Preventing "randomers" walking past is merely a side effect of developer's greed, not a feature by design.

Well maximising profit is of course the first concern. However there are lots of instances where there are walls dividing estates from each other where the absence of a wall wouldn't effect the number of size of units. I think there was a conscious decision to wall in estates and only have one entrance for both cars and pedestrians, otherwise why did this suddenly start to happen in the 1990s? Either way the results are a disaster for any house hold that isn't prepared for every adult to drive everywhere.

galwaycyclist · 27-08-2015 1:41pm

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

"Too Lazy" me arse. The walled estates of Knocknacarra are a joke. Here's an example of where opening up a few wall would reduce a 4km round trip to the supermarket to a 1.2 km trip, or 1 hrs walk to 15 mins walk. Lets say you walk to the shop twice a week, this would save you six hours a month. If you were doing this with a buggy or a small child you'd be saving even more time.

When it comes to walking to and from school twice a day the savings made would be even greater.

If I have it right there are now two primary schools planned for that approximate location. The new educate together school and a gaelscoil.

If I have it right the educate together will be in the "H" shaped building in the top-right. While I think the gaelscoil is going near the green rectangle (football pitch) on the right.

What assessment I wonder was made of pedestrian access in choosing these sites?

Cheshire Cat · 27-08-2015 1:55pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

If I have it right there are now two primary schools planned for that approximate location. The new educate together school and a gaelscoil.

If I have it right the educate together will be in the "H" shaped building in the top-right. While I think the gaelscoil is going near the green rectangle (football pitch) on the right.

What assessment I wonder was made of pedestrian access in choosing these sites?

The ET school is already in the H shaped building, they will have Junior and Senior Infants this September. This school will move into the building the Gaelscoil is currently using (CappaghRd) once the new Gaelscoil has been built. This will go opposite the pitches, where there is wasteland now.

AFAIK there is also Steiner school starting up. They will also be located in the same building as the ET school.

I'd be very much surprised if anybody considered pedestrian access

- it will be mayhem when all the little darlings are going to be dropped off.

galwaycyclist · 27-08-2015 2:26pm

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

The ET school is already in the H shaped building, they will have Junior and Senior Infants this September. This school will move into the building the Gaelscoil is currently using (CappaghRd) once the new Gaelscoil has been built. This will go opposite the pitches, where there is wasteland now.

AFAIK there is also Steiner school starting up. They will also be located in the same building as the ET school.

I'd be very much surprised if anybody considered pedestrian access - it will be mayhem when all the little darlings are going to be dropped off.

I wonder what Steiner would have made of children having to be driven to schools that are quite close as the crow flies.

Robbo · 27-08-2015 2:35pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I wonder what Steiner would have made of children having to be driven to schools that are quite close as the crow flies.

Given the number of anti-vaccination types Steiner schools appeal to, perhaps the old Isolation Hospital site be more appropriate?

what_traffic · 27-08-2015 9:54pm

House Knock
Cloch Ard to Cartúr Mor
https://goo.gl/maps/3wm1V

These walls are just plain daft.
https://goo.gl/maps/R4NaW
Cartúr Mor to Slí na Srúthan

and
https://goo.gl/maps/uRGBA
Hawthorn Place to Slí na Srúthan

what_traffic · 27-08-2015 10:00pm

Ideal place to make a cycle and pedestrian access point.
https://goo.gl/maps/KG8ag

what_traffic · 28-08-2015 6:47pm

Manor Court to An Cimín Mór
https://goo.gl/maps/i7Ti3

what_traffic · 28-08-2015 6:48pm

Ros Ard to Westbrook
https://goo.gl/maps/KzHz9

Wall knock and tree removal?

what_traffic · 31-08-2015 12:40pm

Connacht Tribune ran with this story.
http://connachttribune.ie/cyclists-want-homes-in-knocknacarra-knocked-012/

31-08-2015 12:50pm

The article and submission says that houses could be knocked to provide a better secondary road network - would that include car traffic?

It doesn't seem to explicitly exclude it.

Mrs OBumble · 31-08-2015 1:25pm

Interestingly, I was out in the Newcastle area on the weekend, and really noticed how the various estates seem to be designed to let people move around easily: even when the road aren't joined up, there are pathways, gaps in walls etc.

How did we get it so right there, and so wrong in Knockers?

what_traffic · 31-08-2015 2:16pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Interestingly, I was out in the Newcastle area on the weekend, and really noticed how the various estates seem to be designed to let people move around easily: even when the road aren't joined up, there are pathways, gaps in walls etc.

How did we get it so right there, and so wrong in Knockers?

Different mind set of planners and Engineers in the 70's v's the 90's/00's. Progress eh?

GekkePrutser · 31-08-2015 2:58pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Interestingly, I was out in the Newcastle area on the weekend, and really noticed how the various estates seem to be designed to let people move around easily: even when the road aren't joined up, there are pathways, gaps in walls etc.

How did we get it so right there, and so wrong in Knockers?

I've always thought it was the developers themselves causing this: The mindset that if they'd connect a back road somewhere it'd only be extra work. But that was just a feeling, not based on anything. I lived in Tirellan before and there was the same problem with the next estate (here). Besides it being very impractical it's also extremely ugly to have one of those 'prison camp' style walls cutting through the estate. They didn't even bother making it look nice.

Where I live now near Knocknacarra there's only one exit to the estate too, it's really a problem when the roundabout is busy or blocked off (e.g. Ironman etc), there is no other way out whatsoever.

I think all developments should have two road exits for safety purposes (emergency services access)

what_traffic · 31-08-2015 4:01pm

GekkePrutser wrote: »

I've always thought it was the developers themselves causing this: The mindset that if they'd connect a back road somewhere it'd only be extra work.

Your are right here. Would cost extra MONEY as well, more profit for the Developers. But it is the Galway City Council Planners and Engineers that gave the go ahead for these plans.

Knocknacara Houses knocked for access?

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