Value of garden v extension - Dublin

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 9:43am #1

We bought a new build in south Dublin 4 years ago - 4 bed, 2 storey and about 1,700 s ft.

2 kids later I think we need more space downstairs so want to build a 18 sqm extension. The current garden is small enough - about 70sqm and my wife is very concerned about losing the garden. We don't use it that much she just likes looking out at it and sense of some space.

I feel we'd use the new extension 365 days of the year etc. so willing to sacrifice a lot of the garden. We'd be left with a patio and small strip of grass with some trees and flower bed etc. Also we'd have a c1,900 sq foot modern house that's only 2 storeys in Dublin, which would be rare enough now as most are 3 storeys. Just the problem would be a tiny garden left.

Not sure if it's forever home, id be fine it if was but there's the possibility of moving in 10 years time so my wife wants to know:

1 - what is the value of the garden v extension in Dublin come resale in 10 years? what % of purchasers would be put off by such a small garden?

2 - what do you think is the average ratio of garden sq footage to ground floor house sq footage in Dublin? obviously older houses have much bigger gardens than new builds

3 - we have 3 multi stemmed west Himalayan silver birch trees against back wall and new proposed extension would be about 3-4m away - would this have any impact on the extension - could the tree roots cause issues?

Appreciate any thoughts....

Zulu · 09-10-2019 9:51am

People with kids want gardens - you can't kick a football/cycle a bike/scoot about on a scooter in an extension. No idea of the value, but anecdotally I know of a renovated house which took a lot longer than it should have to sell due to the garden being sacrificed to a large open plan extension.

peteb2 · 09-10-2019 10:16am

I've moved house in the last 4 months. We have two young kids and we saw a lovely house that suited us with an extension as we wanted plenty of space inside. However it left the garden very small and we quickly realised the garden was a deal breaker.

That was a 3 bedroom house and we ended up buying a 4 bed with a great sized garden.

It's a personal thing for each buyer. Some wont care about a garden and some will. I'd expect most would prefer the option to make their own decision.

Also its a personal thing but would have assumed plenty of space for a family of 4 within 1700 sq foot. Maybe a rework of the existing lay out woudl be more useful?

BrokenArrows · 09-10-2019 10:44am

peteb2 wrote: »

Also its a personal thing but would have assumed plenty of space for a family of 4 within 1700 sq foot. Maybe a rework of the existing lay out woudl be more useful?

Agree with this. 1700sq foot is more than enough space for 2 adults and 2 kids, especially as it has 4 bedrooms.

For me, i need my garden. Its only about 30 sq meters but that is a great place to relax in the evening after coming home from work in the summer, and in the winter its just nice to look at.

From a pure value point of view i would think that an extension will add more value to the property than the garden, but you might reduce your pool of potential buyers.

Edgware · 09-10-2019 10:51am

A well designed low labour garden is an asset also. You have a big house for family size but you might be able to design the garden as additional outdoor space, maybe a patio and low maintenance shrubbery. Also the kids wont always be small and you could have room to erect one of those purpose built garden sheds for a small gym/ recreation area.

PhoenixParker · 09-10-2019 11:07am

Zulu wrote: »

People with kids want gardens - you can't kick a football/cycle a bike/scoot about on a scooter in an extension. No idea of the value, but anecdotally I know of a renovated house which took a lot longer than it should have to sell due to the garden being sacrificed to a large open plan extension.

Beyond the age of 3 you can't kick a football, cycle a bike or scoot in a 70sqm garden either.

If there's enough space left for a terrace/bbq, one piece of pkay equipment, to hang out clothes and the orientation is such that you still get a bit of sun into the space, the difference in value between 70sqm and 50sqm won't be huge. They both fall into "there's some outdoor space" category.

That said, if you can't make a 1700sqft 4 bed house work for 2 adults and 2 kids then I don't see an extension bringing you what you're looking for. You should have enough space, the key is more likely to be using the space you have more efficiently and effectively.

Zulu · 09-10-2019 11:21am

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Beyond the age of 3 you can't kick a football, cycle a bike or scoot in a 70sqm garden either.

With a 5 year old, 6 year old, and a dog I couldn't disagree more.

But I accept it's a personal thing and it might/might mot suit people accordingly.

Leprechaun77 · 09-10-2019 11:41am

We had this dilemma a few years ago. The main considerations were the orientation of the back garden and the amount of light the remaining garden would have. The other consideration was in relation to usable space to the front of the house where the kids can play (open area/green).

In our instance we were left with decent light in the back, and actually changed it to Indian Sandstone. It is getting more use now than ever before! We also have a big green to the front of the house and all the kids use this. The extra space of the extension is usable year round and made a noticeable difference for us.

On another note, a 1700sq foot area is quite large by Dublin standards. I would first look at the potential to redesign the current space perhaps?

In relation to value, the extension will increase the house price without doubt, however not to the tune of the cost of the works in my opinion. Small extensions are big money at the moment.

Ray Palmer · 09-10-2019 11:46am

Simply put a small back garden will reduce the market of people looking to buy the house. We had the very similar situation on out own house. As we aren't really bothered about a garden it suited us to have a bigger house and smaller garden.
The thing is we will never sell we will rent it out afterwards and a low maintenance small garden is much better for a rental.
Current builds have smaller gardens but compared to the neighbours ours looks small. So people looking in the area tend to expect a bigger garden.
Your children won't care about the garden in a short space of time.

victor8600 · 09-10-2019 12:11pm

Regardless of the size of the garden remaining after building the extension, my opinion is that the extension reduces the value of the house. Most extensions look hideous from the outside and out of the proportion from the inside. Personally, I would rather buy a house without an extension.

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 12:13pm

Zulu wrote: »

People with kids want gardens - you can't kick a football/cycle a bike/scoot about on a scooter in an extension. No idea of the value, but anecdotally I know of a renovated house which took a lot longer than it should have to sell due to the garden being sacrificed to a large open plan extension.

To be honest the garden is already to small to do that - it's 70sqm and we have 3 greens in our estate that we use for those activities.

For me I'd prefer a real proper size garden and not much at all.

Going from 70 to 50 sqm for me isn't a massive difference, its still a very small garden.

I think when kids get older the only use for our garden is to sit outside on patio to eat/drink and have a bar b q, which 50sqm seems plenty.

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 12:14pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Agree with this. 1700sq foot is more than enough space for 2 adults and 2 kids, especially as it has 4 bedrooms.

Layout of house is great and rooms are big, upstairs is fine. Downstairs we just have a large living room and a large open plan kitchen/dining area.

We have a large table we love in dining area and live in the kitchen so point of extension is to have a 2nd living room with couches.

So kids can play there now and when older pop a TV in and let them watch TV/hang with their friends whilst we use front living room.

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 12:16pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Beyond the age of 3 you can't kick a football, cycle a bike or scoot in a 70sqm garden either.

If there's enough space left for a terrace/bbq, one piece of pkay equipment, to hang out clothes and the orientation is such that you still get a bit of sun into the space, the difference in value between 70sqm and 50sqm won't be huge. They both fall into "there's some outdoor space" category.

Yes this is my thinking also. Yes there would be enough space to hang clothes, sit out on patio and have play equipment. as well as 3 trees and shurbs etc.

victor8600 · 09-10-2019 12:22pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

...point of extension is to have a 2nd living room with couches.

So kids can play there now and when older pop a TV in and let them watch TV/hang with their friends whilst we use front living room.

Would it be possible to convert one of the bedrooms into kids play area instead?

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 12:28pm

To give you an idea of garden left after proposed extension it would be:

- 24 sq m grass rectangle
- 12 sq m patio rectangle
- 5 sq m flower beds/trees
- 6 sq m side passage (covered up so we use to store stuff, no garden shed)

Hope that's helpful - so about 45/50 sq m left of garden after extension, maybe more as my wife thinking of reducing size of extension from 19 to 17 sq m.

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 12:29pm

victor8600 wrote: »

Would it be possible to convert one of the bedrooms into kids play area instead?

not really - if I was going down that route id probably get attic conversion as the pitched roof is really high and you'd get a massive room up in the attic.

but im not mad on 3 storey - we live in the kitchen so that's why I want more room there.

salmocab · 09-10-2019 12:37pm

Maybe have a think about the garden whilst getting the extension it might be able to be made more useable. We’re just about to get some work done in the house and first up is getting the garden sorted, we currently have basically half patio and half stones for the dog to use as a toilet. We had the dog before the kids so it didn’t matter, we are basically getting 2/3 of it as AstroTurf with a small patio and leaving the bottom third for the shed and dog. It’s a small garden but will be way more useable. Luckily it’s a west facing garden so gets great sun in the afternoon onwards.

peteb2 · 09-10-2019 1:42pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

not really - if I was going down that route id probably get attic conversion as the pitched roof is really high and you'd get a massive room up in the attic.

but im not mad on 3 storey - we live in the kitchen so that's why I want more room there.

It's cheaper to go up rather than out. And if you are looking for space from the kids, or them from you more likely, then they might prefer to up in the attic as opposed to just the other side of the kitchen.

Sleepy · 09-10-2019 2:38pm

Likely easier to avoid noise travel between an attic conversion and a sitting room too...

scamalert · 09-10-2019 2:53pm

someone with pets kids as said would def turn down house if it only had a patch, it might be pain in the hole to maintain, but if done right looks nice to have even small garden.

agree that attic could be done into play room or spare bedroom better ROI long term, then few meters in the kitchen.

SozBbz · 09-10-2019 3:03pm

I think if you're looking to maximize ROI for your spend now and maintain the desirability of the house to future buyers, the attic is the way to go.

If I were a teenager, I'd value that sense of privacy that an attic would give - it would feel like a den and be ideal for teens who want a space to hang out.

We're just completing on a new house now and it was largely the garden that sold it to us.

Ray Palmer · 09-10-2019 3:45pm

victor8600 wrote: »

Regardless of the size of the garden remaining after building the extension, my opinion is that the extension reduces the value of the house. Most extensions look hideous from the outside and out of the proportion from the inside. Personally, I would rather buy a house without an extension.

A larger house is worth more a large garden may increase the value of your house. There really isn't much debate on whether an extension adds value they simply do. The amount of increased value is dependant on how it is done. A few exceptions but they would be about bad construction and/or terrible design.

Most people will value a bigger kitchen due to an extension than a small kitchen. Your opinion would be the rarity

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 4:23pm

SozBbz wrote: »

I think if you're looking to maximize ROI for your spend now and maintain the desirability of the house to future buyers, the attic is the way to go.

If I were a teenager, I'd value that sense of privacy that an attic would give - it would feel like a den and be ideal for teens who want a space to hang out.

We're just completing on a new house now and it was largely the garden that sold it to us.

I don't want to do the attic as it's downstairs I want the space - having parties, friends over etc. it's all on ground floor.

The attic may be an option in 10 years if we don't move (in addition to the proposed ground extension).

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 4:25pm

BTW thanks a million for all the feedback so far, is appreciated.

ted1 · 09-10-2019 4:27pm

Zulu wrote: »

People with kids want gardens - you can't kick a football/cycle a bike/scoot about on a scooter in an extension. No idea of the value, but anecdotally I know of a renovated house which took a lot longer than it should have to sell due to the garden being sacrificed to a large open plan extension.

I’ve kids and a garden, kids only really use the trampoline, they play football etc on the green , cycle and scoot around the estate. The extra space of an extension is way more valuable.

ted1 · 09-10-2019 4:28pm

peteb2 wrote: »

It's cheaper to go up rather than out. And if you are looking for space from the kids, or them from you more likely, then they might prefer to up in the attic as opposed to just the other side of the kitchen.

No it’s not, well not in my case !!!
you also sacrifice space for stairs etc. And there’s a whole lot of regulations to meet

Idbatterim · 09-10-2019 4:32pm

would a log cabin as a den / office not be a better idea? way cheaper and not permanent? also it actually gets you out and away from other people, giving you space...

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 7:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

would a log cabin as a den / office not be a better idea? way cheaper and not permanent? also it actually gets you out and away from other people, giving you space...

Wouldn’t be my cup of tea no, but thanks anyway

Theboinkmaster · 09-10-2019 7:33pm

ted1 wrote: »

No it’s not, well not in my case !!!
you also sacrifice space for stairs etc. And there’s a whole lot of regulations to meet

For my house it’s more expensive to do attic than extension

victor8600 · 10-10-2019 11:32am

Idbatterim wrote: »

would a log cabin as a den / office not be a better idea? way cheaper and not permanent? also it actually gets you out and away from other people, giving you space...

It's a nice idea if you want a work space (for office or DIY), but not good for kids as it's going to be cold in winter and also kids would run back and forth through the garden to the house constantly.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Most people will value a bigger kitchen due to an extension than a small kitchen. Your opinion would be the rarity

I know what else is a rarity -- an extension that looks good.

Zulu · 10-10-2019 11:41am

A branch manager of a bank (now retired) told me that as a "rule of thumb" you get back half the value of any work you carry out in terms of an ext.

Don't know how accurate that is as I never sold a property, but there you go.

Theboinkmaster · 10-10-2019 11:59am

I forgot to say my garden is east facing too, so limited use

BrokenArrows · 10-10-2019 2:15pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

To give you an idea of garden left after proposed extension it would be:

- 24 sq m grass rectangle
- 12 sq m patio rectangle
- 5 sq m flower beds/trees
- 6 sq m side passage (covered up so we use to store stuff, no garden shed)

Hope that's helpful - so about 45/50 sq m left of garden after extension, maybe more as my wife thinking of reducing size of extension from 19 to 17 sq m.

Ok that garden size will be perfectly fine without impacting the value of the property.

Ray Palmer · 11-10-2019 11:17am

victor8600 wrote: »

I know what else is a rarity -- an extension that looks good.

I have no idea why you think the majority of extensions are ugly. Most are fine it is rare I have seen an extension and thought it made the property look bad. You really are out on your own with that view.

spaceHopper · 11-10-2019 12:30pm

You have a 1700 sq ft house, it's not small you shouldn't need an extension, you need the garden more get a skip and do a clean out

BeansBeans · 11-10-2019 12:33pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have no idea why you think the majority of extensions are ugly. Most are fine it is rare I have seen an extension and thought it made the property look bad. You really are out on your own with that view.

I would agree with him, I think a lot of extensions are ugly and a bit of a waste of potential. Although of late there are more extensions that have had proper architectural input and consideration so things are changing

SozBbz · 11-10-2019 1:57pm

BeansBeans wrote: »

I would agree with him, I think a lot of extensions are ugly and a bit of a waste of potential. Although of late there are more extensions that have had proper architectural input and consideration so things are changing

There is a fair bit of truth to the assertion that some extensions are ugly. I think its especially true of older ones where there was no architectural involvement and people went with the cheapest options.

We're hoping to get out keys next week and in a few years hope to tear down the existing extension, which dates to the 1970's. Its your typical flatroof job, poorly insulated and in my view it doesnt make the most of the site. The resulting layout is poor and it I don't think we could get what we want by tinkering with it.

ncmc · 11-10-2019 2:13pm

spaceHopper wrote: »

You have a 1700 sq ft house, it's not small you shouldn't need an extension, you need the garden more get a skip and do a clean out

1700sq ft isn't *that* big in a modern estate house. AFAIK, the hall and downstairs loo have to be wheelchair accessable, so you lose a lot of space with an overlarge hallway and under stairs bathroom. The house next to mine is about the same size as the OP (we have a smaller three bed house) and they have the same layout as us only on a bigger scale i.e. Large kitchen diner and one separate living room.

I can see where the OP is coming from, with kids, it's nice to have a second reception room where they can hang out with their friends and then have a 'good' room for the adults. It was the norm in older houses to have two separate reception rooms but it has fallen out of favour a bit in favour of open plan living.

If I've read the OP's plans correctly, then he wants to make the kitchen/diner/living room bigger and then have a separate reception room that the kids can use. I think it's a good use of space. It sounds like your garden will still be an ok size. I think people value indoor space more than outdoor space with our climate. Once you can fit a rotary dryer, bbq and maybe a small shed/bike storage, I think it will be fine.

Plus if it's your home for the forseeable future, then you should turn it into somewhere you'd love to live NOW rather than worry about future value. The property market could change in so many ways, it's a bit pointless trying to work out value years in the future

Theboinkmaster · 11-10-2019 7:58pm

ncmc wrote: »

1700sq ft isn't *that* big in a modern estate house. AFAIK, the hall and downstairs loo have to be wheelchair accessable, so you lose a lot of space with an overlarge hallway and under stairs bathroom. The house next to mine is about the same size as the OP (we have a smaller three bed house) and they have the same layout as us only on a bigger scale i.e. Large kitchen diner and one separate living room.

I can see where the OP is coming from, with kids, it's nice to have a second reception room where they can hang out with their friends and then have a 'good' room for the adults. It was the norm in older houses to have two separate reception rooms but it has fallen out of favour a bit in favour of open plan living.

If I've read the OP's plans correctly, then he wants to make the kitchen/diner/living room bigger and then have a separate reception room that the kids can use. I think it's a good use of space. It sounds like your garden will still be an ok size. I think people value indoor space more than outdoor space with our climate. Once you can fit a rotary dryer, bbq and maybe a small shed/bike storage, I think it will be fine.

Plus if it's your home for the forseeable future, then you should turn it into somewhere you'd love to live NOW rather than worry about future value. The property market could change in so many ways, it's a bit pointless trying to work out value years in the future

Yes spot on about hallway and toilet you’re correct. We need a second living area so this is being added to the kitchen\dining room potentially.

So then we will have a front TV room and then a large open plan room with kitchen, dining area and living space with couches.

ncmc · 11-10-2019 8:07pm

Oh and just as an aside, our garden is the same size as your new garden would be (maybe a small bit bigger) we redesigned it a few years ago to make it look bigger. You’d be amazed how a well designed garden can trick the eye. We have a good size patio, shed, trampoline and rotatary dryer and still have space for planting along the sides and pots dotted around. I love my garden, I don’t feel hard done by that it’s small! Like the OP, the kids spend most of the time playing out the front on the green anyway.

fishy_fishy · 12-10-2019 10:39pm

So many people put poxy sh!te extensions tacked onto their houses and end up with a compromised space inside and a compromised space outside, everything gets darker inside and ultimately they add less value than they spend.

Go talk to an interior architect and figure out the best possible use of space. Maybe you'll add on something, but it sounds like the majority of your needs can be met by rearranging internally, and maybe having a small extension put on, but engaging someone who's actually good at arranging space in a useful manner will pay for itself in reduced building costs and a better outcome.

I'd be very surprised if you need to add that much to accommodate a family of 4 in an already decently sized house.

BarryD2 · 12-10-2019 10:58pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

The current garden is small enough - about 70sqm and my wife is very concerned about losing the garden. We don't use it that much she just likes looking out at it and sense of some space.

Appreciate any thoughts....

A question to consider would be does your wife spend longer in the house than you? If by any chance she’s there more often for the kids etc, than you are, I’d be listening carefully to what she’s happy with.

Theboinkmaster · 14-10-2019 4:08pm

fishy_fishy wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if you need to add that much to accommodate a family of 4 in an already decently sized house.

We do need the extra room. I don't want to rearrange anything as downstairs is perfect, just want 2nd living room.

My questions were really around the resale value of house with extension, not whether I need more room or not - I know I do, but don't really want to move.

Ultimately what % of buyers would be put off by 50 Sqm small garden...

Theboinkmaster · 14-10-2019 4:10pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

A question to consider would be does your wife spend longer in the house than you? If by any chance she’s there more often for the kids etc, than you are, I’d be listening carefully to what she’s happy with.

Good point but no, we both work full-time so in the house the same.

Her issue is looking out at garden and feeling a sense of space, rather than the garden walls closing in on you from outside if that makes any sense.

Personally I'd rather the extra room inside as we'd use it 365 days a year and we could still redesign the garden to maximise the small space.

harr · 14-10-2019 4:24pm

We built extension on this and last house and was left with similar size garden as OP would have.
We have no issues with the garden size and got garden done while doing extension. We got a small patio and small artificial lawn and a few decent flower beds. Painted shed and garden walls a bright colour. Plenty of room to sit and have a BBQ and decent enough room for kids to play.
On another note the houses selling near me sell quicker with an extension Over a larger garden even if the extension is a poor one and garden is properly landscaped.

Dolbhad · 14-10-2019 6:48pm

If I was buying a house, I don’t like when extensions are done and usually I’d think I’d have done it differently to suit my needs and too expensive fix. I also like a bigger garden. I would say do what works for you and your family. Just be aware for extension, you may not get the money back in a sale. But your not doing an extension to increase value of property but make the house work for you. If you need the space in the house and have the space in garden to use, I’d do extension

April 73 · 14-10-2019 9:17pm

OP - I did this back in 2012 to add another sitting room on to a kitchen/dining room. We reduced the size of the garden to do it but figured we used the space in the house much more than the few days we could spend in the garden every year. It was the right decision for us. We ended up with a space I loved inside & put a nice patio down outside the extension. We had a strip of grass, flower beds along the end & room for a shed at the side but it wasn’t a huge garden left. At that stage though our kids wanted to be out the front not the back garden. When we sold our buyers said it was the kitchen extension & the low maintenance garden that sold the house to them.

When we moved I did another extension (sadly I enjoy that kind of stuff). Prices are twice what they were in 2012 unfortunately. My advice would be not to cut back from 19 to 17sqm. You won’t save much & the space is worth it.

My personal opinion is make the house the house you want to live in. Our weather is bloody awful most of the time - having some low maintenance outdoor space is fine for a lot of people.

Value of garden v extension - Dublin

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