How do we break the welfare cycle?

Eric Cartman · 08-07-2020 11:26pm

Biker79 wrote: »

Mcwilliams spoke of disability claims some years ago. They aren't included in the unemployment stats.

Very strange indeed.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/the-mystery-of-disability/

was wondering why the amount of disabled people started rapidly climbing in 96, then I looked up the social welfare act 96 which talks heavily about this fantastic new disability payment...

shocking correlation there.

collywobble7 · 08-07-2020 11:35pm

osarusan wrote:

There's only three ways to spend the taxpayer's hard-earned money when it come to welfare reform. More walls. More bars. More guards.

But you write your letters...

08-07-2020 11:40pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Well aside from the over 43,000 working age people in Ireland who have never paid a prsi contribution

1: The disabled aren't generally in a position to pay PRSI contributions. 643,131 self-described as disabled on the last census in a population of over 4.7 million. 43,000 working-age-PRSI-non-contributors is an enormous win for your position in that context. You should be celebrating. That's an extraordinary tribute to the system, its administrators, and the restraint of your fellow citizens.

2: If your 43,000 claimants are on the weekly €203 for one year that will amount to less than €500,000,000 (half a billion). National expenditure last year was €77,500,000,000,000 (77.5 billion). You're complaining about a 6.45% item in the national accounts that is apparently bankrupting the country and corrupting its moral basis. That is either bizarre and obsessional or it is bigoted.

3: Your problem with these 43,000 people equates to 0.91489361702128% of the population of Ireland.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The massive fraud in the disability system,

Please quantify this.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I would say that almost the entirety of the population who have been on JSA for over 2 years now are intentionally avoiding work.

"You would say", would you? Again, please quantify. And factor in whatever proportion are carers who've been categorised as 'unavailable for work' and officially advised to use JSA as an easily accessible bridging method because of dysfunctionalities in the carers' allowance system; what proportion are the recently disabled who know they will never work again and have been waiting years to transfer over to the disability payment because they're waiting on the paperwork to come through; and all the other countless various distortions that occur in a bureaucracy in need of reform.

One thing stands out though: by your own stats you are whinging about 0.91489361702128% of the population of Ireland and saying that their behaviour is a national crisis.

Something about that is troubling.

***edit because I can't use a calculator***

bfa1509 · 08-07-2020 11:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

1:

You're complaining about a 6.45% item in the national accounts that is apparently bankrupting the country and corrupting its moral basis. That is either bizarre and obsessional or it its bigoted.

3: Your problem with these 43,000 people equates to 0.0091489361702128% of the population of Ireland.

Please quantify this.

One thing stands out though: by your own stats you are whinging about 0.0091489361702128% of the population of Ireland and saying that their behaviour is a national crisis.

Something about that is troubling.

Your calculations are a bit off

but regardless: 6.45% is an incredibly high amount when you think of all the money needed for health, transport, debt bills etc. That's by no means a trivial amount

Jane98 · 09-07-2020 12:01am

TheDativeCase for your information, 43,000 is not 0.0091489361702128% of the population. Its 0.91489....% or almost 1% which is a sizable number.

09-07-2020 12:04am

Jane98 wrote: »

TheDativeCase for your information, 43,000 is not 0.0091489361702128% of the population. Its 0.91489....% or almost 1% which is a sizable number.

Ha, you're dead right, Jane. Serves me right.

micah537 · 09-07-2020 12:06am

Free compulsory 3rd level education and you can't collect the dole until the courses of 3 or 4 years are completed leaving you to be at least 21 years old, or complete a trade. If people realize they have potential they might actually do something with their life. I genuinely think some people from disadvantaged or toxic backgrounds have no belief in themselves and just collect the dole or work in a factory as they are brought down by people around them etc. If they had a qualification they would hopefully put it to use here or abroad when they see the earning potential.

I think a bigger problem is the growing population, which should be combated instead. Max of two kids per person from 2025. Once your second kid is born you either get tubal ligation or vasectomy or pay an extra tax if you want more kids. Stop paying lay abouts to pop kids out and expect the state to cover them. Decrease the population instead of it continually rising it will require less spent on infrastructure in the future.

Depression obviously exists. However if all you do is sit around doing nothing you are going to become depressed and stuck in a rut compared to if you had college or a job.

Cutting dole may force people to work or potentially rise crime rates. It's cheaper to educate people to keep them in prison.

Anyway, complaining on boards won't fix these problems .

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2020 12:06am

bfa1509 wrote: »

Your calculations are a bit off but regardless: 6.45% is an incredibly high amount when you think of all the money needed for health, transport, debt bills etc. That's by no means a trivial amount

and thats only the 'never paid prsi' doesn't account for all the other fraud.

09-07-2020 12:08am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and thats only the 'never paid prsi' doesn't account for all the other fraud.

What exactly is the evidence base for "all the other fraud"?

09-07-2020 12:13am

Jane98 wrote: »

TheDativeCase for your information, 43,000 is not 0.0091489361702128% of the population. Its 0.91489....% or almost 1% which is a sizable number.

Lord knows how my maths teachers put up with me. Despite the pathetic attempt at crunching numbers, it would seem that the following two questions still stand.

-Are we really saying that the behaviour of less than 1% of the population, many of whom suffer extreme hardship, is a national crisis?

-And are we really saying that a 500-million-euro item in the 77-billion-euro national accounts has degraded the social contract more than all the other challenges facing our society?

bfa1509 · 09-07-2020 12:15am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and thats only the 'never paid prsi' doesn't account for all the other fraud.

Trust me I know! A 22 year old of non-irish, non-european origin in the class behind me in college scammed €70,000+ out of the state. They postponed his slap on the wrist so that he could finish his masters!! I shudder to think how many don't get caught.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2020 12:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the point stands though, despite the pathetic attempt at mathematics:

-Are we really saying that the behaviour of less than 1% of the population, many of whom suffer extreme hardship, is a national crisis?

-And are we really saying that a 500-million-euro item in the 77-billion-euro national accounts has degraded the social contract more than all the other challenges facing our society?

we've the worlds most generous welfare state. theres no hardship.

09-07-2020 12:18am

bfa1509 wrote: »

Trust me I know! A 22 year old of non-irish, non-european origin

Non-Irish AND non-European origin, you say?

09-07-2020 12:20am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we've the worlds most generous welfare state

Please quantify this.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

theres no hardship.

There was a blooded syringe left in the lobby of our building the other day. Can't agree with you that this is a utopia.

KevRossi · 09-07-2020 12:21am

My own suggestion is to get the fathers to contribute to child allowance. So you get [for example] 60% of the child allowance rate, but name the father and then he has €50 a week deducted from his SW payment or he pays a percent of his wages for each child. A bit extra is taken every Christmas.

Parentage is easily proven with DNA tests.

It would actually put some responsibility on the fathers to contribute to their kids lives, plenty of them are proud to have fathered several kids with several women.

Along with that the system of community welfare payments needs to be totally overhauled. It's gone from being an emergency payment to being a calculated source of income for many people.

ronivek wrote: »

Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

Yes, Germany has the '1 Euro Job', where after being on the dole for certain length of time you have to go to work, usually in the community sector. It's to get long term employed used to the idea of working again. You get between €1 and €2.80 an hour along with your social welfare payment. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_opportunities_with_additional_expenses_compensation

atilladehun · 09-07-2020 12:22am

Years ago (10) I remember hearing on the radio a report on a long term interventional study that allowed young pregnant women to get parenting coaching. For some it was their first child, others not.

They'd meet their worker every quarter over 7 years and learn about the stage their child was at. Be given advice on their child's behaviour, learning stage, what they should be eating and other basics.

Nearly every child showed major gains on their peers, cousins and siblings. From what I heard the results are outstanding.

From what I remember it was on Pat Kenny on newstalk and it was a trinity based research. I have never found the details since.

As I say to anyone who says "they should teach that in schools". Teach the adults and the kids will get it.

09-07-2020 12:40am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Please quantify this.

There was a blooded syringe left in the lobby of our building the other day. Can't agree with you that this is a utopia.

A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.

09-07-2020 12:49am

JayZeus wrote: »

A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.

Lost my dad to opioid addiction and then suicide, mate. Hardest-working man I've ever met, and my best friend. Wasn't known to eat "crap food" or "sit on his arse watching brain-rot TV on a 50"+ set" as you describe. "A junkie creates their own hardship" you say. In his case it was a genetic illness.

Employed 12 people before the hardship. He got sick, the painkillers became a problem and he fought it but he drifted away and got caught in the tide. No "mickey money" or "golden ticket DA payment" or whatever pathetic rubbish you're ranting about here.

Glad you've no hardship in your life, and thanks for your advice vis-a-vis "Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there" as you say.

But there is indeed hardship in Irish society and many people have experienced the above. Please show some love to your neighbours and fellow citizens.

And have a good look at yourself and re-read what you write to people on the internet, whether they're "scrounger-spawn" or not, in your loving tribute to the English language.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 1:58am

Many posters here believe it can be fixed from the bottom up.

Imagine if you and your partner got any fulltime job you could afford rent or maybe one say a house of your own?
Imagine if you worked hard your entire life and had a nice nest egg put by?

These once expected things are becoming more fantasy as time moves on. It's not getting better and individuals cannot change that.

The current FF/FG system us designed to provide private businesses with profit. When the public can't provide it the FF/FG governments use tax payer money to pick up the slack.

Examples:
No more social housing builds results in tax payer funded leases and part purchases.
Poorer amenities and access to health gives business to the private market.
When it falls on its arse, tax payer funded bail outs.
We need to put the prosperity of the working individual above the corporate. People before profit if you will. Then we wont need such a welfare spend and we wont have a pensions bomb down the road. If people were able to pay their own way and put some money aside they'd not need a dig out from the tax payer.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 2:02am

JayZeus wrote: »

A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.

So how did gerry ryan die? Being a junkie isn't class specific.
We literally worshipped the church. It's in our Genes to want to have as many children as possible. Some of us anyway. It was literally a goal the church set.

Geuze · 09-07-2020 2:11am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we've the worlds most generous welfare state. theres no hardship.

I often wonder do we have the highest % of the pop on welfare?

It was 50%.

By 2019 it was about 45%.

Hard to get good comparative data, so hard to compare with other countries.

But we do know that we lead Europe in jobless households, that's for sure.

We are high for lone parenthood.

We are really high for disability, I often wonder why?

Geuze · 09-07-2020 2:12am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do you agree that there are a large proportion of welfare recipients who could physically work but choose not to or have actively caused themselves conditions which have led to them being unable to work ?

Yes, of course.

We all know this.

But how do we change it?

Geuze · 09-07-2020 2:14am

ronivek wrote: »

Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

Are the German mini-jobs this idea?

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEU_enIE888IE888&ei=T28GX4mfILiZ1fAPiOOk-Aw&q=German+Hartz+IV+mini+jobs+&oq=German+Hartz+IV+mini+jobs+&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoFCCEQoAE6AggAOgUIABCRAjoECAAQCjoICAAQsQMQkQI6BQgAELEDOgQIABADOgYIABAWEB46CAgAEBYQChAeOgQIABANOgYIABANEB46CAgAEAgQDRAeOgQIABAeOggIABAIEAcQHjoHCCEQChCgAVCfL1iGfmDTgQFoAHAAeACAAVWIAfcKkgECMjaYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjJgt3__r7qAhW4TBUIHYgxCc8Q4dUDCAw&uact=5

mitchelsontour · 09-07-2020 2:25am

gailforecast wrote: »

Sure, but people aren’t taxed to the hilt there.

But they are local taxes, state taxes, sales tax on top of the marked price, health insurance costs.
We pay something like 12k a year for health insurance and still have copays and a 6k deductible.
The land of the free it ain't.

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 9:05am

gailforecast wrote:

How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

gailforecast wrote:

Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?

Heavily invest in our health system, expanding our mental health and psychology departments, integrate these new services and departments into our other major services, I. E. Educational systems, welfare systems, legal systems etc etc, in an attempt to address the underlying issues that causes unemployment in the first place

The programs mentioned both succeed and fail to deal with the problem, I. E. Some success stories, but they have limitations, some of these programs should continue and be expanded, and be included in the above process.

Our educational system is academically biased, alternative employment sectors such as the trades are virtually unrepresented within it, or relatively so. The trades should be equally represented within our educational system, and/or create it's own exclusive training system, similar to other countries such as Switzerland etc, giving it equal status to our current educational system

The sad truth is virtually none of that will actually occuring, so I'm sure things will change!

cgcsb · 09-07-2020 9:13am

The states largest welfare recipient is Denis O'Brien for his whole life. I'd reposes his assets and sell them, use the money to build lots of qood quality social, affordable and cost rental housing and put DO'B on a Council housing list. I'd do the same to Lary Goodman, Bertie Ahern etc. They should also be forced to do community service, perhaps sweeping streets. Oh and we should stop blaming the poor for social problems and blame the billionaires who could change things if they wanted to.

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 9:46am

cgcsb wrote: »

The states largest welfare recipient is Denis O'Brien for his whole life. I'd reposes his assets and sell them, use the money to build lots of qood quality social, affordable and cost rental housing and put DO'B on a Council housing list. I'd do the same to Lary Goodman, Bertie Ahern etc. They should also be forced to do community service, perhaps sweeping streets. Oh and we should stop blaming the poor for social problems and blame the billionaires who could change things if they wanted to.

Larry Goodman and Denis O’Brien have a combined net worth of 5 billion. Last year the country had an expenditure of 77 billion. If we liquidate all of there assets, we’ll have an additional 5 billion for one year, all of which will be gobbled up in welfare from the thousands of people left unemployed from liquidation of said assets.

How you can blame a billionaire for someone being on the dole their whole life is beyond me.

Dravokivich · 09-07-2020 9:53am

ronivek wrote: »

Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

Yeah, you've seen them in American movies as "Chain Gangs."

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2020 9:53am

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, of course.

We all know this.

But how do we change it?

take away the option. Make welfare a safety net for those actually in need, actively work against providing these people the financial resources to build up their drink or drug addictions.

Converting child benefit to a tax credit and removing housing priority would go a hell of a long way to stopping those young women who wish to follow in their mothers/relatives footsteps and getting knocked up at 17-18 , getting a council flat and never doing a tap.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2020 9:55am

This graph from dave McWilliams post about disability rates is shocking and pretty decent evidence of the level of fraud thats going on.

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 9:58am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This graph from dave McWilliams post about disability rates is shocking and pretty decent evidence of the level of fraud thats going on.

go again!

paw patrol · 09-07-2020 9:58am

ever read the court section of the papers and wonder how some/many people up on assault or social misbehavior charges are also on sick or disability benefit?

I've no figures but it's something I noticed.

If they're too sick for work they should be too sick for laying the smackdown on people.

recent example.

https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-is-charged-with-threat-to-kill-woman-at-shopping-centre-39346160.html

The judge also granted legal aid after an application by the defence, which said Ms Deans was on disability benefit.

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 10:01am

paw patrol wrote: »

ever read the court section of the papers and wonder how some/many people up on assault or social misbehavior charges are also on sick or disability benefit?

I've no figures but it's something I noticed.

If they're too sick for work they should be too sick for laying the smackdown on people.

recent example.

https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-is-charged-with-threat-to-kill-woman-at-shopping-centre-39346160.html

https://www.thejournal.ie/men-charged-spitting-5059018-Mar2020/?amp=1/

Father and son accused of spitting on Garda. Both are “disabled”.

cgcsb · 09-07-2020 10:36am

gailforecast wrote: »

Larry Goodman and Denis O’Brien have a combined net worth of 5 billion. Last year the country had an expenditure of 77 billion. If we liquidate all of there assets, we’ll have an additional 5 billion for one year, all of which will be gobbled up in welfare from the thousands of people left unemployed from liquidation of said assets.

How you can blame a billionaire for someone being on the dole their whole life is beyond me.

why would selling an asset mean job losses? If someone owns a hotel for example and sells it to someone else, is it not still a hotel with staff etc.? Ireland's total welfare expenditure in 2019 was €21bn. Do you honestly think that those 2 individuals employ enough people to increase that figure by 25%?? Basically you are claiming that DOB and LG are paying the people they indirectly employ more than their entire net worth every year. How does that add up?

I'm not blaming them for people who are on the dole I'm blaming them for being on rich mans dole, and you're in full billionaire worship mode. Do you have a Jeff Bezos poster on your wall in your bedsit you work hard for?

cgcsb · 09-07-2020 10:41am

It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 10:42am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.

its disturbing actually, and many are very well educated and intelligent which makes it even more disturbing

osarusan · 09-07-2020 10:42am

If we don't want people literally forced to live on the streets (and some people might think that's ok, I don't), then there is always going to be some sort of safety net there.

And as long as there's a safety net there, some people are going to exploit it.

For some it might be health or lack of education or whatever, but there's no doubt that there is an entitlement culture. That's what needs to be targeted, but I've no idea how.

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 10:43am

osarusan wrote: »

If we don't want people literally forced to live on the streets (and some people might think that's ok, I don't), then there is always going to be some sort of safety net there.

And as long as there's a safety net there, some people are going to exploit it.

For some it might be health or lack of education or whatever, but there's no doubt that there is an entitlement culture. That's what needs to be targeted, but I've no idea how.

go again!

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 10:47am

cgcsb wrote: »

why would selling an asset mean job losses? If someone owns a hotel for example and sells it to someone else, is it not still a hotel with staff etc.? Ireland's total welfare expenditure in 2019 was €21bn. Do you honestly thin that those 2 individuals employ enough people to increase that figure by 25%??

I'm not blaming them for people who are on the dole I'm blaming them for being on rich mans dole,

So your plan is to just sell it to another billionaire? I don’t understand what you want here.

I also don’t know what you mean by rich mans dole? Why would anybody pay more tax than is absolutely necessary?

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 10:51am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.

In fairness, trickle down economics doesn’t exist in Ireland. Salaries have to be paid before profits, if any, are accrued.

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 10:52am

gailforecast wrote: »

In fairness, trickle down economics doesn’t exist in Ireland. Salaries have to be paid before profits, if any, are accrued.

does it exist at all?

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 10:55am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

does it exist at all?

Supply side/Reganomics existed in the US for a brief period. Not so much anymore.

Dyr · 09-07-2020 10:56am

gailforecast wrote: »

How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?

Good training schemes really work, especially in conjuction with industry support and ongoing assesement of course success

You start investing in poverty infrastructure with NGOs etc. all you wind up with is professionals who's interest it's in to perpetuate the problem rather than solve it

cgcsb · 09-07-2020 10:57am

gailforecast wrote: »

So your plan is to just sell it to another billionaire? I don’t understand what you want here.

I also don’t know what you mean by rich mans dole? Why would anybody pay more tax than is absolutely necessary?

No problem with a person who earns a billion honestly, some people earned it through corruption (effectively have taken it from the tax payer in far greater amounts than the tax payer).

Wanderer78 · 09-07-2020 10:57am

gailforecast wrote: »

Supply side/Reganomics existed in the US for a brief period. Not so much anymore.

did it really, or did it just cause a large scale asset price inflation, low wage inflation, stagnant in some cases, and overall increasing worker insecurities?

Pinoy adventure · 09-07-2020 10:57am

With seetec gone,will the CE scheme go next ? Paying people €20 on top of the dole too work 20hours a week.
Slave labor that is.
The unemployed need/deserve more money NOT less money.

LegallyAbroad · 09-07-2020 10:59am

Withdraw the massive tax breaks for those in receipt of generational asset transfers.

Ringface the additional money for early child development for those in the most at risk socio-economic categories.

LegallyAbroad · 09-07-2020 11:04am

Geuze wrote: »

I often wonder do we have the highest % of the pop on welfare?

It was 50%.

By 2019 it was about 45%.

Hard to get good comparative data, so hard to compare with other countries.

But we do know that we lead Europe in jobless households, that's for sure.

We are high for lone parenthood.

We are really high for disability, I often wonder why?

This is good, though. It stops us having the massive social problems other countries have.

We have the most re-distributive tax system in Europe. Can you imagine the problems we would have otherwise?

gailforecast · 09-07-2020 11:11am

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

With seetec gone,will the CE scheme go next ? Paying people €20 on top of the dole too work 20hours a week.
Slave labor that is.
The unemployed need/deserve more money NOT less money.

How do figure that? My dad found himself unemployed for a grand total of 6 months, excluding 3 months during the pandemic. Both times he gladly undertook CE schemes.

Why do unemployed people “deserve” more money? Should our taxes go up to cover this?

amadangomor · 09-07-2020 11:13am

The thing that makes no sense for me is that people who have contributed get the same as long term unemployed.

I had a serious injury and have had to come back to work prematurely at risk to my health because I was getting 203 measly euro a week. After 20+ years of PRSI contributions this is a kick in the teeth.

Cutting JSA and upping JSB and sick benefit would be fairer to the people who make an effort.

How do we break the welfare cycle?

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