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Leaving Cert 2020 arrangements due to COVID-19

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Comments

  • #102
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    zeebre12 wrote: »
    A teacher is surely going to give a better mark to their students now? Why wouldn't they? Also what about private schools/teacher is your neighbour/teacher is your parent? What teacher is really going to fail anyone especially honours Maths?

    I think we all saw teachers in school play favourites. There were some great and fair teachers, but plenty of petty teachers.

    Aside from that there are students who put in the big push towards the end and get much better marks than the mocks. They would have likely gotten better results in the real exams than they'll get now. If they knew in advance this was coming that would be one thing. But to retroactively say they're going to base results of stuff you can't go back and change is very unfair.

    With no JC there will be a lot of empty classrooms in schools. Couldn't they just split everyone up so that there are much smaller numbers in the rooms? Hire more invigilators and have everyone wear a mask for the duration of the exam?


  • #103
    Tristan_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 ✭Tristan_


    So very crestfallen by this. I don't honestly mind repeating but it's just the broader idea of why this happened, the circumstances under which it happened and the proof that incessant whining gets you what you want from the government. I hope all those students who like to conflate a sense of personal responsibility with genuine mental health issues enjoy their few months off.

    I will not be in contact with any one of my teachers even though I'd like to thank them for their tremendous support the last two months. Last thing I want to do is look like I'm grovelling for a grade. My sheet of predicted grades will mean nothing to me whether or not it gets me where I want to be. I normally find it annoying when people reduce the LC as "letters on a sheet of paper", but in this case it genuinely will be just that. Substanceless.


  • #104
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Hrududu wrote: »
    With no JC there will be a lot of empty classrooms in schools. Couldn't they just split everyone up so that there are much smaller numbers in the rooms? Hire more invigilators and have everyone wear a mask for the duration of the exam?
    ZOMG FU!!

    You DARE to spout common sense in the middle of JoeDuffyVille?

    Off with His Head!!!!



    Seriously ... maybe it would have come to this point anyway.

    There were no guarantees. But if this is the way they go to-day ... it's about 4-6 weeks premature.

    At least IMHO.

    And I'm not suggesting I have crystal balls, any more than the next guy.



    Edit: Tris? You know something lad, you have a head on your shoulders, from what I've seen over last few months, and the connections between the two work. ;)

    Don't matter what that list says, that "head on your shoulders" will carry you through in the long run. ;)

    Come back to me in 30 years and tell me I'm wrong! :p:D

    (Won't happen!)


  • #105
    Tristan_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 ✭Tristan_


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    ZOMG FU!!

    Tris? You know something lad, you have a head on your shoulders, from what I've seen over last few months, and the connections between the two work. ;)

    Don't matter what that list says, that "head on your shoulders" will carry you through in the long run. ;)

    Come back to me in 30 years and tell me I'm wrong! :p:D

    (Won't happen!)

    You're too kind randy - will try have something to show for those 30 years :)


  • #106
    c_f_p99
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭c_f_p99


    It is absolutely unfair. But I'm at such an advantage as I did so well in the mocks (although I didn't cheat to be fair). Managed to maintain a consistent average throughout the year too.

    Sitting the exams is obviously much fairer, but muh, study. Like, I seriously can't be arsed with that anymore.


  • #107
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    And if that student drops out of their course next year for whatever reason, where do they go with no Leaving Cert?

    You can’t create even more inequality by only giving grades to a certain cohort.

    You also can’t just allow students to enter courses because they are undersubscribed. They have to meet requirements. Those requirements are there for a reason.

    The credits for doing 1 year at 3rd level are (admittedly not in all cases) worth more than the Leaving Cert anyway.

    Course "points" are generally only an indication of how much demand there is for a course. Courses don't tend to have minimum requirements. A college or university will try to fill every course regardless. Exceptions of course are there. If a student wants to do study French then it should be expected that they have a certain minimum standard of French. However it would be extremely unlikely that someone who struggles at French would have put a French degree down on their CAO form.

    My point is that the LC is generally just a points race for most students to get them onto a 3rd level course. If we can minimise the number of students that need to go down the predicted grades route then it's better for all concerned.


  • #108
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Choochtown wrote: »
    The credits for doing 1 year at 3rd level are (admittedly not in all cases) worth more than the Leaving Cert anyway.

    Course "points" are generally only an indication of how much demand there is for a course. Courses don't tend to have minimum requirements. A college or university will try to fill every course regardless. Exceptions of course are there. If a student wants to do study French then it should be expected that they have a certain minimum standard of French. However it would be extremely unlikely that someone who struggles at French would have put a French degree down on their CAO form.

    My point is that the LC is generally just a points race for most students to get them onto a 3rd level course. If we can minimise the number of students that need to go down the predicted grades route then it's better for all concerned.



    Loads of courses have minimum requirements reflecting the nature or difficulty of the course, e.g. get at least a H5 in a science subject for a science course, get a H5 in Maths for some engineering courses.

    You might find it hard to believe but some students base their choices in college on what looks handy in terms of points or what might seem like a cool job, i.e. the countless number of students every year who put down computer science thinking they'll spend their time playing an X-box and not realising that they have to have a decent maths capability, or 10 years ago the students who thought having a job as a forensic scientist involved going around in sunglasses with a CSI jacket on them, without considering the heap of chemistry they would need to study.

    Course requirements are there so the colleges get students into their courses who will have the ability for the material they will be studying.


  • #109
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    c_f_p99 wrote: »
    ... but muh, study. Like, I seriously can't be arsed with that anymore.
    In fairness, if I was 17-18 right now, and facing into my LC, and pretty confident that my teachers' idea of my PG was pretty accurate, I'd prob feel like you do.

    And actually it was (accurate, that is) ... my Maths teacher was cranky as hell I didn't get the A, my Irish teacher pretty much fainted when I got a B not a D (my mother, a native speaker, agreed! :rolleyes:) ... but even allowing for that I would have been one grade off overall.

    And I had about 150 spare points for what I wanted so who gave a fk anyway! :o

    But ...

    ... I was in a safe position, lots of my mates would have been in line to get ball-busted by this.


  • #110
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Loads of courses have minimum requirements reflecting the nature or difficulty of the course, e.g. get at least a H5 in a science subject for a science course, get a H5 in Maths for some engineering courses.

    You might find it hard to believe but some students base their choices in college on what looks handy in terms of points or what might seem like a cool job, i.e. the countless number of students every year who put down computer science thinking they'll spend their time playing an X-box and not realising that they have to have a decent maths capability, or 10 years ago the students who thought having a job as a forensic scientist involved going around in sunglasses with a CSI jacket on them, without considering the heap of chemistry they would need to study.

    Course requirements are there so the colleges get students into their courses who will have the ability for the material they will be studying.


    Very true but then the points requirement goes up for that course. The points system is not an indication of quality of course, it's an indication of places available which is a very different thing. A course that requires 500 points is not a "harder" or "better" course than one which requires 350 points. The 500 points is just an indication of the ratio of students applying to places available. If for example there were loads of students this year who wanted to study Chemistry then the points required for a Chemistry course might rise from 470 to 550. It doesn't mean that the course has got more difficult.


  • #111
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Very true but then the points requirement goes up for that course. The points system is not an indication of quality of course, it's an indication of places available which is a very different thing. A course that requires 500 points is not a "harder" or "better" course than one which requires 350 points. The 500 points is just an indication of the ratio of students applying to places available. If for example there were loads of students this year who wanted to study Chemistry then the points required for a Chemistry course might rise from 470 to 550. It doesn't mean that the course has got more difficult.

    I am completely aware of that.

    It doesn't negate the fact that a person needs to meet minimum requirements in certain subjects to enter a course.

    You can get 500 points in your LC, but if you fail maths and maths is a course requirement you will not be offered a place.


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  • #112
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I am completely aware of that.

    It doesn't negate the fact that a person needs to meet minimum requirements in certain subjects to enter a course.

    You can get 500 points in your LC, but if you fail maths and maths is a course requirement you will not be offered a place.


    I would imagine that the number of students who are weak at Maths who apply for a course where Maths is a course requirement would be very low. We should also bear in mind that being weak at Maths and failing LC Maths are not necessarily the same thing.

    At this point the exact science of selecting students on the basis of points has to be at least a bit looser. Let's give the students a bit of credit for generally selecting courses that they are interested in or have an aptitude for. Many many students will have down as their 1st choice courses which are under-subscribed. What's the harm in accepting them onto that course?

    My suggestion isn't perfect (no solution will be) but I think it's a start to reducing the madness that is about to be unleashed.


  • #113
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    ...and so it begins.

    From the official statement on gov.ie https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/

    Direct quote below:

    Will students be able to see a record of the percentage mark that the school has given?

    Yes. Students will have access to the school-based data
    In the detailed guidance that we are providing to schools and teachers we will be making it very clear that schools should not disclose the estimated marks or rank orders to students or to their parents/guardians.


  • #114
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    And so it begins.

    Weeks ... a month or more? ... before we were forced to this point.

    Honestly, LC students ... I hope you come out at the end with what you want / what is the best option for you.

    Honestly, I can't find it in in me to piss all over Varadkar / McHugh / Martin / Byrne. Genuinely difficult times. Unprecedented in fact.

    And yet ... I do feel that we're here TO-DAY / NOW because of a lack of .... cojones? Sorry, not being sexist, but that is the term that makes sense to me.


  • #115
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    When I did my Leaving Cert 30 years ago, I got two B's and two C's on higher papers, two B's and one C on lower papers and an F in lower Irish (LOL)
    I would have not got into college if they accessed me on the Christmas and mock exams. I went up 30% on the Leaving cert results.
    People tend to work their ass off in the month before their leaving cert. This should be taken into account.
    And there is the bias aspect between teacher and student too.


  • #116
    _Godot_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭_Godot_


    Well, what about projects, like with history? I haven't actually handed mine in yet.


  • #117
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Choochtown wrote: »
    I would imagine that the number of students who are weak at Maths who apply for a course where Maths is a course requirement would be very low. We should also bear in mind that being weak at Maths and failing LC Maths are not necessarily the same thing.

    At this point the exact science of selecting students on the basis of points has to be at least a bit looser. Let's give the students a bit of credit for generally selecting courses that they are interested in or have an aptitude for. Many many students will have down as their 1st choice courses which are under-subscribed. What's the harm in accepting them onto that course?

    My suggestion isn't perfect (no solution will be) but I think it's a start to reducing the madness that is about to be unleashed.

    Passing maths in LC is a course requirement in almost every course in the country, except for some Arts courses.

    11% of students sitting OL maths failed it last year. 7% failed at HL. That's a lot of people who, if they applied to the CAO, would not have been offered a place on the majority of courses regardless of how many points they had.


  • #118
    c_f_p99
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭c_f_p99


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Passing maths in LC is a course requirement in almost every course in the country, except for some Arts courses.

    11% of students sitting OL maths failed it last year. 7% failed at HL. That's a lot of people who, if they applied to the CAO, would not have been offered a place on the majority of courses regardless of how many points they had.

    Are you counting H7s as fails, though? I swear the HL figures aren't nearly that high.


  • #119
    cena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭cena


    As a person with both the Leaving cert applied and the normal leaving cert. don't sweat the exams. You could all aways repeat the year or there other ways around getting to college


  • #120
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Passing maths in LC is a course requirement in almost every course in the country, except for some Arts courses.

    11% of students sitting OL maths failed it last year. 7% failed at HL. That's a lot of people who, if they applied to the CAO, would not have been offered a place on the majority of courses regardless of how many points they had.


    ...and it will be 11% and 7% again this year. That really doesn't sit well with me.

    Imagine a typical OL class of 28 students. Student A and Student B both struggle with Maths. Their teacher will have to grade the class from 1 to 28.
    The teacher gives student A 41% O6 and student B 41% O6.
    Now the teacher has to grade them 1 to 28. Student A is graded in 25th place and so gets the O6. Student B is graded in 26th place and so is relegated to O7 and doesn't get offered a course.
    Just as bad is the fact that Student B at a higher achieving school will keep their O6!


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  • #121
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Choochtown wrote: »
    ...and it will be 11% and 7% again this year. That really doesn't sit well with me.

    Imagine a typical OL class of 28 students. Student A and Student B both struggle with Maths. Their teacher will have to grade the class from 1 to 28.
    The teacher gives student A 41% O6 and student B 41% O6.
    Now the teacher has to grade them 1 to 28. Student A is graded in 25th place and so gets the O6. Student B is graded in 26th place and so is relegated to O7 and doesn't get offered a course.
    Just as bad is the fact that Student B at a higher achieving school will keep their O6!

    And no matter what anyone says that student will carry the thought that that teacher chose to fail them. And so the cycle of teacher bashing begins again.


  • #122
    JDMC2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 106 ✭✭JDMC2


    Will students be able to see a record of the percentage mark that the school has given?

    Yes. Students will have access to the school-based data
    In the detailed guidance that we are providing to schools and teachers we will be making it very clear that schools should not disclose the estimated marks or rank orders to students or to their parents/guardians.

    Will the % mark be available online on day of results, same as last year?
    If so, I assume this will be the final % that DES come up with?
    How can a student access the school based data?


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