The British Empire Thread

PHB · 11-02-2008 7:39pm #1

So you think that the British Empire spread democracy across the globe? Oh, you think that the Statute of Westminster was the greatest legislation ever passed? Well let's discuss that, in this thread.

Any off-topic posts in other threads which I don't think should be there will be moved into here, and the poster may well recieve a ban if he/she has been a repeat offender.

[Please note that using this thread as an excuse for personal abuse or racism (in the nationalist sense) will result in a ban.

----

McArmalite · 11-02-2008 7:44pm

PHB wrote: »

So you think that the British Empire spread democracy across the globe? Oh, you think that the Statute of Westminster was the greatest legislation ever passed? Well let's discuss that, in this thread.

Any off-topic posts in other threads which I don't think should be there will be moved into here, and the poster may well recieve a ban if he/she has been a repeat offender.

[Please note that using this thread as an excuse for personal abuse or racism (in the nationalist sense) will result in a ban.

----

Oh, I'm going to enjoy this

Erin Go Brath · 11-02-2008 10:02pm

PHB wrote: »

So you think that the British Empire spread democracy across the globe? Oh, you think that the Statute of Westminster was the greatest legislation ever passed?

Someone actually believes these things. :eek: I'm looking forward to seeing them explain this one away.

ejmaztec · 11-02-2008 10:39pm

Oh well, here goes.

Firstly, I'll point out the obvious. A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. The British Empire was created by a certain amount of cunning, extreme violence, superior firepower and a limitless supply of cannon-fodder. There was also bribery and corruption to get the right people in the right place at the right time.

During the build-up of the British Empiire, there was no democracy, either in Britain itself, or anywhere else in the British Empire. It seems to me that democracy was only introduced in a lead-up to the independence of each nation. The resulting instant homemade democracies then went off on their merry may. Some of them are more democratic than others, but that's another story.

Fratton Fred · 11-02-2008 11:05pm

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

csk · 11-02-2008 11:14pm

Oh the joy. :rolleyes:

PDN · 11-02-2008 11:22pm

All Empires are created and run by bullies.

Having said that, I think that there is a case for arguing that, historically, colonialism introduced democracy to some countries that, left to their own devices, would never have embraced democracy.

Hardly justifies all the oppression - but there you go!

ejmaztec · 11-02-2008 11:26pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Perhaps if the Chinese are reading this, they might not make the same mistakes as their empire-building predecessors, thereby leading to a fairer deal for our descendants.

Erin Go Brath · 12-02-2008 12:27am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Well we're hardly going to jump up and down about the fact. Enough people in this country have been hoodwinked by the media, and UK propagandists (Take a bow Fred, you've done your bit) about Britains atrocities in Ireland. I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

SpitfireIV · 12-02-2008 12:36am

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

What?! Freakin' hell, you mean there was a famine here and people actually DIED?! (come on, do you seriously think Irish people dont know about the famine and dont blame the British for it?!)

0.45 onwards.....:rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath · 12-02-2008 2:25am

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

What?! Freakin' hell, you mean there was a famine here and people actually DIED?! (come on, do you seriously think Irish people dont know about the famine and dont blame the British for it?!)

0.45 onwards.....:rolleyes:

I love 'The Field'. The Bull McCabe sure showed those Brits.

:D:D

Croppy this is a post of yours from the famine thread:

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Yeah that map is a well balanced one alright, for instance:

"Escorting food shipments thru Royal and Grand Canals to Dublin for export; 17th 32nd, 45th, 66th, 13th Dragoons (whence the term goons)"

Eh, no.....thats not why Dragoons as so called.

"Carbine toting British Constabularly and Militia"

.....funny.

I personally dont like that site, its kicking up a lot of resentment and hatred for an event which is long in the past...

"Irishmen and Irishwomen!
Read this site and weep. Weep for the agonies and deaths of your people at the hands of genocidists. The authorities who imposed the curriculum, the teachers and professors who funneled it into you, have carefully kept you uninformed as to which British regiment, or that any regiment, murdered your people. Until now, that information was kept from you. You had no access to it. You do now - you read it on your computer screen! Commit the regiment's name to memory.

Never, ever, forget it!
Learn its British HQ town. As no Jewish person would ever refer to the "Jewish Oxygen Famine of 1939 - 1945", so no Irish person ought ever refer to the Irish Holocaust as a famine."

What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??

Nuff said.....

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 10:21am

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Well we're hardly going to jump up and down about the fact. Enough people in this country have been hoodwinked by the media, and UK propagandists (Take a bow Fred, you've done your bit) about Britains atrocities in Ireland. I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

But you know the real truth do you? finding the truth is very hard, especially when pretty much all the history of this country is written with an agenda.

Playboy · 12-02-2008 11:59am

In 1845, the onset of the Famine resulted in over 1,000,000 deaths. Ottoman Caliph Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Caliph send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Caliph sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived in Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman sailors

Taken from here

Not trying to antagonize anyone but since the famine came up I thought I would post this piece of information I came across not so long ago.

Erin Go Brath · 12-02-2008 12:58pm

No need to apologize playboy. If people aren't interested in the truth, thats their problem. The facts of the famine are there for all to see, many choose to ignore them, because heaven forbid our friends across the water might be a bit uneasy about what their ancestors were getting up to.

This map with the British flags representing the British regiments that removed Irelands food during the famine is the most damning show of the level of that evil empires malevolence:
http://home.comcast.net/~irishholocaust/Irish_Holocaust/Images/1024-map.gif

PHB · 12-02-2008 2:48pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Because some people seem intent on discussing this topic in every thread. Hence if you want to discuss the British empire and its effects, you can do it in here. While those who couldn't care less can not read the thread.
Solution? Everyones happy.

SpitfireIV · 12-02-2008 3:17pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Nothing personal mate, but no, I dont think I should hold my head in shame, if being a 'true' Irishman means holding resentment, bitterness and some form of a grudge for events which have long since passed then god help me but I'd sooner not be classed as 'Irish' at all! How is being able to come to terms with the past, accepting it as history and holding no resentment an embarrasment now? :rolleyes:

Its 2008, not 1798, not 1848........move on and focus on something a little more positive.

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 3:46pm

Playboy wrote: »

In 1845, the onset of the Famine resulted in over 1,000,000 deaths. Ottoman Caliph Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Caliph send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Caliph sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived in Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman sailors

Taken from here

Not trying to antagonize anyone but since the famine came up I thought I would post this piece of information I came across not so long ago.

That is also given as the reason why Drogheda has the star and half moon as their badge. That is rubbish too.

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 3:48pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

No need to apologize playboy. If people aren't interested in the truth, thats their problem. The facts of the famine are there for all to see, many choose to ignore them, because heaven forbid our friends across the water might be a bit uneasy about what their ancestors were getting up to.

This map with the British flags representing the British regiments that removed Irelands food during the famine is the most damning show of the level of that evil empires malevolence:
http://home.comcast.net/~irishholocaust/Irish_Holocaust/Images/1024-map.gif

and how accurate is that site? does it have a political agenda?

Thought so.

McArmalite · 12-02-2008 3:58pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Oh well, here goes.

Firstly, I'll point out the obvious. A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. The British Empire was created by a certain amount of cunning, extreme violence, superior firepower and a limitless supply of cannon-fodder. There was also bribery and corruption to get the right people in the right place at the right time.

During the build-up of the British Empiire, there was no democracy, either in Britain itself, or anywhere else in the British Empire. It seems to me that democracy was only introduced in a lead-up to the independence of each nation. The resulting instant homemade democracies then went off on their merry may. Some of them are more democratic than others, but that's another story.

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 4:12pm

McArmalite wrote: »

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

You love taking things out of context to suit your arguements.

Yes, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade, along with pretty much every other European country and a large number of Africans themselves. The Slave trade was probably the biggest human rights abuse in the history of the world, but you talk ass if Britain did it alone. I also wonder how many Irishmen were involved as well, although as they would have been doing so under the Union Flag, the irish of today can sit back and be all selft righteous about the whole thing.

Britian did not use Gas in Iraq, please find me something that says they did. You are, I guess, referring to an oftern misquoted passage from Churchill, but it did not happen.

Britain did not force the Chinese to use Opium, they did however wrongfully exploit the fact that they did, along with the Belgians, French and Americans.

Yes, the decendants of British (And I guess that will include Irish as well) did almost wipe out the tasmanian aboriginies, a crime that can never be repaid, just like the crimes committed by the Spanish in South America, or even the Americans in the US, (one particular Irishman springs to mind in that particular genocide).

You speak of the Britih Empire as if Ireland were not part, but they were. Ireland was not a colony, ireland was part of Britain and the Irish were very much part of Britains exploits overseas.

The British Empire was won by the Irish, Administered by the Scots and lost by the English.

McArmalite · 12-02-2008 4:18pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britian did not use Gas in Iraq, please find me something that says they did. You are, I guess, referring to an oftern misquoted passage from Churchill, but it did not happen.

Britain did not force the Chinese to use Opium, they did however wrongfully exploit the fact that they did, along with the Belgians, French and Americans.

Yes, the decendants of British (And I guess that will include Irish as well) did almost wipe out the tasmanian aboriginies, a crime that can never be repaid, just like the crimes committed by the Spanish in South America, or even the Americans in the US, (one particular Irishman springs to mind in that particular genocide).

You speak of the Britih Empire as if Ireland were not part, but they were. Ireland was not a colony, ireland was part of Britain and the Irish were very much part of Britains exploits overseas.

The British Empire was won by the Irish, Administered by the Scots and lost by the English.

" Ireland was not a colony"

:D:D

Gas, chemicals, bombs: Britain has used them all before in Iraq -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/19/iraq.arts
http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 4:23pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Ireland was not a colony :D:D

Gas, chemicals, bombs: Britain has used them all before in Iraq -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/19/iraq.arts
http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

I knew you would bring that article up. There is no foundation for any of that and it was published in the anti war, anti British grauniad just before GW1. You will note that the quote from Churchill is edited and that in fact, the gas Churchill was talking about (But was never used) was teargas to quell riots. I would not say it was right, but hugely different to what you are implying.

McArmalite · 12-02-2008 4:37pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

I knew you would bring that article up. There is no foundation for any of that and it was published in the anti war, anti British grauniad just before GW1. You will note that the quote from Churchill is edited and that in fact, the gas Churchill was talking about (But was never used) was teargas to quell riots. I would not say it was right, but hugely different to what you are implying.

Oh so I see, the country, all 32 counties of it, had a referendum and accepted the Act of Union :rolleyes:. And BTW, NONE of my crowd EVER had anything to do with the occupying terrorist british army - NOT ONE. Don't try and tell me my family history.

My favourite song about the Empire - Rock On Rockall by the Wolfe Tones.

Oh the Empire is finished no foreign lands to steal
But the greedy eyes of England are staring towards the seas
Two hundred miles from Donegal, there's a place that's called Rockall
And the groping hands of Whitehall are grabbing at its walls

Oh rock on Rockall, you'll never fall to Britain's greedy hands
Or you'll meet the same resistance that you did in many lands
May the seagulls rise and pluck your eyes and the water crush your shell,
And the natural gas will burn your ass and blow you to hell.

For this rock is part of Ireland, 'cos it' s written in folklore
That Fionn MacCumhaill took a sod of grass and he threw it to the fore,
Then he tossed a pebble across the sea, where ever it did fall,
For the sod became the Isle of Man and the pebble's called Rockall.

Now the seas will not be silent, while Britannia stalks the waves
And remember that the Irish will never be your slaves,
And remember that Britannia, well, - you rule the waves no more
So keep your hands off Rockall - it's Irish to the core.

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 4:49pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Oh so I see, the country, all 32 counties of it, had a referendum and accepted the Act of Union :rolleyes:. And BTW, NONE of my crowd EVER had anything to do with the occupying terrorist british army - NOT ONE. Don't try and tell me my family history.

oohh, that's a yes then. Where did they fight, India, Afghanistan, Turkey, or was it in South Africa during the Zulu wars, there were plenty of Irishmen there. In fact, is it right that the majority of officers at Rourkes Drift were Irish?

McArmalite · 12-02-2008 4:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oohh, that's a yes then. Where did they fight, India, Afghanistan, Turkey, or was it in South Africa during the Zulu wars, there were plenty of Irishmen there. In fact, is it right that the majority of officers at Rourkes Drift were Irish?

Rourkes Drift / Zulu's - check out my thread - The Epitome of British History and Military Lies

. Surprised you forgot that one

Erin Go Brath · 12-02-2008 9:24pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and how accurate is that site? does it have a political agenda?

Thought so.

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

Fratton Fred · 12-02-2008 10:10pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

why is it that anyone who refuses to accept your point of view s cheerleading and defending them? This debate is ages old, was it genocide? no it was not. was it a callous act by the rich, using soldiers to protect their exports, yes of course it was. Britain did not cause the famine, but they did little to ease the suffering of those caught up in it. Out of curiosity, how much aid came from Britain to Ireland, not from government but from the people of Britain?

Yes the Empire got rich off the backs off smaller countries, which Empire are you referring to? as I said earler, Britain had an empire, no better or worse than anyone elses.

Quis Separabit · 13-02-2008 11:48am

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I love 'The Field'. The Bull McCabe sure showed those Brits. :D:D

Croppy this is a post of yours from the famine thread:

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Yes, the same famine which affected the north, but curiously the more organised Presbyterians in the north, many of whom had smaller plots of land to grow food on,less affection for drink, fewer children and tennants orgs survived it.

Quis Separabit · 13-02-2008 11:53am

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

.....You mean British (most likely Irish Catholic) soldiers protected gombeen Catholic storekeepers from potential rioters as well as food from being stolen, lets get the facts straight.

Didnt see the Catholic church doing much either.

Aid came from the church of Ireland and Queen Victoria.

Quis Separabit · 13-02-2008 12:01pm

McArmalite wrote: »

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

Britain did not create slavery in Africa it was always there.

Britain actually led the way in abolishing it.

Did the republic not use "concentration camps"(an emotive term for temporary military camps with barbed wire, nothing like Nazi death camps) in the civil war ?

The reality is the wealth we have today, that inclues Ireland, has its origins in the global capitalist economy created by the empire. The modern stock markets whos function we rely on is a modern extension of this.

Our culture and economies are products of the British empire.

Britain led the way in bringing civilsation to places like India, pity the empire is still not around today, the world would be a much more stable place.

Erin Go Brath · 13-02-2008 1:26pm

Quis Separabit wrote: »

.....You mean British (most likely Irish Catholic) soldiers protected gombeen Catholic storekeepers from potential rioters as well as food from being stolen, lets get the facts straight.

Didnt see the Catholic church doing much either.

Aid came from the church of Ireland and Queen Victoria.

You might start by getting the facts straight yourself. British regiments removed food from starving Irish people for sale abroad. Irish tenant farmers had to pay every penny to try and keep a roof over their heads or else the landlord evicted them. Vicky gave a pittance, see the post about the Caliph been forced to give less, coz Vicky didn't want to be seen in a bad light. The COI were only interested in giving food to starving Catholics if they renounced their faith, and joined the COI. To many people who were deeply religious at the time we have to remember, this would be seen as blasphemy and they would go to hell, so they would rather die instead.

Britains actions at the very least could be considered gross negligence to a part of the then kingdom (albeit it was the sub-species Irish :rolleyes:), and theres a strong case for it being a wanton act of genocide. Either way your cheerleading of the Empires actions during this period on an IRISH discussion board will go down like a lead balloon. :mad:

McArmalite · 13-02-2008 2:42pm

Quis Separabit wrote: »

Yes, the same famine which affected the north, but curiously the more organised Presbyterians in the north, many of whom had smaller plots of land to grow food on,less affection for drink, fewer children and tennants orgs survived it.

Well the mask would slip sooner or later, a true Paisleyite opinion - " the more organised Presbyterians in the north, many of whom had smaller plots of land to grow food on,less affection for drink, fewer children and tennants orgs survived it. " So now you know taigs, the inferior, backward, thick, dirty, lazy Irish Catholics are respondcible for their own destruction, especially their " affection for drink ". Spoken like a true unionist. Contrast that to the superior, industrial, hard working, crafty unionist race. Still true blue UDA billy boy, you cann't help having those opinions, after all, most of them concurred and often orginated from the 'mainland'. Isn't that right Fred, Croppyboy, Pathfinder etc ??

Quis Separabit wrote: »

Britain did not create slavery in Africa it was always there.

Britain actually led the way in abolishing it.

Did the republic not use "concentration camps"(an emotive term for temporary military camps with barbed wire, nothing like Nazi death camps) in the civil war ?

Never said britian created slavery, anyone knows the Romans etc were at it, but they undoubtably enslaved more poeple than any other state in histroy. No doubt about.

As for Britain actually led the way in abolishing it. "
* 1335 Sweden and Finland make slavery illegal
* 1588 Lithuania and Japan abolish slavery
* 1723 Russia abolishes slavery
* 1761 Portugal abolishes slavery

* 1772 Slavery declared illegal in England,

And it's completely beyond me why the brits applaud themselves for abolishing their own evil practice. I mean, it's like a theif starting to fell guilty about mugging an old lady's etc and saying, I'm going to stop it, and then proclaiming how fair minded and great he is ??

"The concentration camps in which Britain killed 27 000 Boer women and children(24000) during 1899 - 1902 ". http://www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm

Quis Separabit wrote: »

The reality is the wealth we have today, that inclues Ireland, has its origins in the global capitalist economy created by the empire. The modern stock markets whos function we rely on is a modern extension of this.

Our culture and economies are products of the British empire.

Britain led the way in bringing civilsation to places like India, pity the empire is still not around today, the world would be a much more stable place.

:D:D
As for unionism and economic development, I rememeber a quote of James Connolly - The relationship between unionism and britian is unlike any found in nature. It is a relationship where one type of parasite, breeds off another type of parasite.

Oh the Empire is finished no foreign lands to steal
But the greedy eyes of England are staring towards the seas
Two hundred miles from Donegal, there's a place that's called Rockall
And the groping hands of Whitehall are grabbing at its walls

Oh rock on Rockall, you'll never fall to Britain's greedy hands
Or you'll meet the same resistance that you did in many lands
May the seagulls rise and pluck your eyes and the water crush your shell,
And the natural gas will burn your ass and blow you to hell.

Eat you heart out Ian

Fratton Fred · 13-02-2008 2:52pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Never said britian created slavery, anyone knows the Romans etc were at it, but they undoubtably enslaved more poeple than any other state in histroy. No doubt about.

Other than your own prejudice, do you have anything to back that up, because I would have thought that Spain, France and the US would have had similar numbers of slaves.

Give me St George in my heart keep me singing
Give me St George in my heart I pray
Give me St George in my heart keep me singing
We Won't surrender to the IRA.

I'm sure I can find a load more, but lets refrain from quoting nationalist songs shall we, it is a bit pointless.

PDN · 13-02-2008 2:52pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The COI were only interested in giving food to starving Catholics if they renounced their faith, and joined the COI. To many people who were deeply religious at the time we have to remember, this would be seen as blasphemy and they would go to hell, so they would rather die instead.

While some Protestants carried out famine relief out of a desire to win converts, it is factually incorrect to say that the CoI were only interested in this.

Indeed, Richard Whately, CoI Archbishop of Dublin, specifically preached against such an attitude. He used the Good Samaritan as an example and argued that, as the Good Samaritan did not try to convert the man he helped, neither should the CoI attempt to convert those to whom they extended famine relief.

As always, history is composed of many people of differing motives and character - any attempt to oversimplify it into goodies versus baddies is bad history.

PDN · 13-02-2008 2:53pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Other than your own prejudice, do you have anything to back that up, because I would have thought that Spain, France and the US would have had similar numbers of slaves.

Imperial China?

McArmalite · 13-02-2008 3:10pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Other than your own prejudice, do you have anything to back that up, because I would have thought that Spain, France and the US would have had similar numbers of slaves.

Give me St George in my heart keep me singing
Give me St George in my heart I pray
Give me St George in my heart keep me singing
We Won't surrender to the IRA.

I'm sure I can find a load more, but lets refrain from quoting nationalist songs shall we, it is a bit pointless.

Well, now we know who get a belting from the Guards down at Lansdowne Road in 1995

Wolff · 13-02-2008 3:26pm

The oul chessnuts thread

Britain and the famine
Britain and the Death Camps in South Africa
Britain and the Slave Trade

Most British people I think would agree they could have done more for us in the famine so to keep dragging this one up time after time is lame in the extreme.

Death camps in South Africa - this one always plays well but whats less well known is the public outcry when details were published about conditions in the camps, back home in britain -the backlash lead directly to the end of the war.

Dont think the Germans had much of an outcry - oh thats right Irelands best pal at the time the German people didnt know what was going on.

I can picture the scene - truck rolls up to the street - all the jewish people loaded up and driven off never to be seen again - yep nothing wrong there.

Britain and the slave trade - yep again the british did terrible things as well here and it was a deadfull trade.. but to their credit they were among the first to outlaw it and actively police any slave trading around the empire.

And if i hear that crap about drogheda again ill scream - thats all a load of oul bollix

No they were not perfect and have done a lot of bad things in their history - but show me a country that hasnt.

But the republican crowd here live in a completely blinkered version of the past -

Britain has been around for nearly a thousand years - they must be doing something right - get over it

McArmalite · 13-02-2008 4:07pm

" The oul chessnuts thread

Britain and the famine
Britain and the Death Camps in South Africa
Britain and the Slave Trade

Most British people I think would agree they could have done more for us in the famine so to keep dragging this one up time after time is lame in the extreme.". It's a HISTORY forum, what the hell are people supposed to talk about. If you don't like the subject, don't read it.

" Death camps in South Africa - this one always plays well but whats less well known is the public outcry when details were published about conditions in the camps, back home in britain -the backlash lead directly to the end of the war. "
Death camps - ? The Oxford Dictionary defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.

The backlash DID NOT lead directly to the end of the war. The Boer War ended as the Boer men no longer had the heart to fight due to the immense death and suffering of their women and children in the concentration camps. They even feared that should the war continue, their'd be no future generation left such was the ferocity of the british. True their was an outcry among the british public AFTER the war, but it was unfortunately due to the fact that britian's misconduct had been kept form them during it. ( It should be pointed out most Irish people sympathised with the Boers, seeing them as a people oppressed by britian like themselves. )

"Dont think the Germans had much of an outcry - oh thats right Irelands best pal at the time the German people didnt know what was going on. I can picture the scene - truck rolls up to the street - all the jewish people loaded up and driven off never to be seen again - yep nothing wrong there. " Don't see why Nazi Germany is brought in as an excuse for britian's misconduct. Anyway, it's was conviently brushed under the carpet by the 'allies' that 1/2 a million German socialists, trade unionists, etc were taken and thrown into concentration camps before the war to die ( such policy's were secretly very populiar with the ruling class of in many countries across Europe ). I wonder if you, or indeed any one of us were present witnessing such events, would we have shouted stop ?? I'm sure the few who did found themselves been beaten to pulp and off to you know where. But then that's always a tatctic of your type, making hypocritical excuses like ' ah well, they weren't as bad as so and so'. But still they managed to achieve something the Nazi's couldn't, the extermination of a race of people - the Tasmanian aborigines.

"Britain and the slave trade - yep again the british did terrible things as well here and it was a deadfull trade.. but to their credit they were among the first to outlaw it and actively police any slave trading around the empire." As stated - And it's completely beyond me why the brits applaud themselves for abolishing their own evil practice. I mean, it's like a theif starting to fell guilty about mugging an old lady's etc and saying, I'm going to stop it, and then proclaiming how fair minded and great he is ??

"And if i hear that crap about drogheda again ill scream - thats all a load of oul bollix ". If i hear that crap about Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington etc, again ill scream - thats all a load of oul bollix.

"No they were not perfect and have done a lot of bad things in their history - but show me a country that hasnt....But the republican crowd here live in a completely blinkered version of the past - Britain has been around for nearly a thousand years - they must be doing something right - get over it....Britain has been around for nearly a thousand years - The United Kingdom of Great Britain, came into existence in 1707 by the merger of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, under the Acts of Union 1707, to create a single kingdom encompassing the whole of the island of Great Britain.

The brits and West brit crowd here live in a completely blinkered version of the past - get over it

Erin Go Brath · 13-02-2008 4:07pm

PDN wrote: »

While some Protestants carried out famine relief out of a desire to win converts, it is factually incorrect to say that the CoI were only interested in this.

Indeed, Richard Whately, CoI Archbishop of Dublin, specifically preached against such an attitude. He used the Good Samaritan as an example and argued that, as the Good Samaritan did not try to convert the man he helped, neither should the CoI attempt to convert those to whom they extended famine relief.

As always, history is composed of many people of differing motives and character - any attempt to oversimplify it into goodies versus baddies is bad history.

The CoI archbishop was surely duty bound to say these things, surely compassion should have been the most important thing especially from a man of God. I think the clergy both Catholic and Protestant let the people down for the most part during the famine. On the one hand you had a Protestant priest trying to convert dying Catholics with the promise of food, and on the other hand you had the Catholic priests telling them they'd go to hell if they accepted it.

Fratton Fred · 13-02-2008 4:13pm

McArmalite wrote: »

" The oul chessnuts thread

Britain and the famine
Britain and the Death Camps in South Africa
Britain and the Slave Trade

Most British people I think would agree they could have done more for us in the famine so to keep dragging this one up time after time is lame in the extreme.". It's a HISTORY forum, what the hell are people supposed to talk about. If you don't like the subject, don't read it.

" Death camps in South Africa - this one always plays well but whats less well known is the public outcry when details were published about conditions in the camps, back home in britain -the backlash lead directly to the end of the war. "
Death camps - ? The Oxford Dictionary defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.

The backlash DID NOT lead directly to the end of the war. The Boer War ended as the Boer men no longer had the heart to fight due to the immense death and suffering of their women and children in the concentration camps. They even feared that should the war continue, their'd be no future generation left such was the ferocity of the british. True their was an outcry among the british public but it was unfortunately due to the fact that britian's misconduct had been kept form them during the war.

"Dont think the Germans had much of an outcry - oh thats right Irelands best pal at the time the German people didnt know what was going on.
I can picture the scene - truck rolls up to the street - all the jewish people loaded up and driven off never to be seen again - yep nothing wrong there. " Don't see why Nazi Germany is brought in as an excuse for britian's misconduct. Anyway, it's was conviently brushed under the carpet by the 'allies' that 1/2 a million German socialists, trade unionists, etc were taken and thrown into concentration camps before the war ( such policy's were secretly very populiar with the ruling class of in many countries across Europe ). I wonder if you, or indeed any one of us were present witnessing such events, would we have shouted stop ?? I'm sure the few who did found themselves been beaten to pulp and off to you know where.

"Britain and the slave trade - yep again the british did terrible things as well here and it was a deadfull trade.. but to their credit they were among the first to outlaw it and actively police any slave trading around the empire." As stated - And it's completely beyond me why the brits applaud themselves for abolishing their own evil practice. I mean, it's like a theif starting to fell guilty about mugging an old lady's etc and saying, I'm going to stop it, and then proclaiming how fair minded and great he is ??

"And if i hear that crap about drogheda again ill scream - thats all a load of oul bollix ". If i hear that crap about Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington etc, again ill scream - thats all a load of oul bollix.

"No they were not perfect and have done a lot of bad things in their history - but show me a country that hasnt....But the republican crowd here live in a completely blinkered version of the past - Britain has been around for nearly a thousand years - they must be doing something right - get over it"

"Britain has been around for nearly a thousand years 2 - The United Kingdom of Great Britain, came into existence in 1707 by the merger of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, under the Acts of Union 1707, to create a single kingdom encompassing the whole of the island of Great Britain. It's parliament and government, based in Westminster in London.

The brits and West brit crowd here live in a completely blinkered version of the past - get over it

McArmalitre's view on Ireland, 3 True irishmen, 3,999,997 west brits who do not believe the same ****e he does:D

Fratton Fred · 13-02-2008 4:17pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The CoI archbishop was surely duty bound to say these things, surely compassion should have been the most important thing especially from a man of God. I think the clergy both Catholic and Protestant let the people down for the most part during the famine. On the one hand you had a Protestant priest trying to convert dying Catholics with the promise of food, and on the other hand you had the Catholic priests telling them they'd go to hell if they accepted it.

Don't forget the CoI is very different from the Presbytarian church. Presbytarians (Who have a fairly well known reverand leading one of the parties in Stormont) can be a lot more militant than the CoI, so it is not unreasonable to presume that the CoI were going following what the Archbishop was preaching, whilst the Presbytarians, a different form of protestantism entirely, were busy trying to convert catholics.

Erin Go Brath · 13-02-2008 4:37pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Don't forget the CoI is very different from the Presbytarian church. Presbytarians (Who have a fairly well known reverand leading one of the parties in Stormont) can be a lot more militant than the CoI, so it is not unreasonable to presume that the CoI were going following what the Archbishop was preaching, whilst the Presbytarians, a different form of protestantism entirely, were busy trying to convert catholics.

Not knowing a whole lot about the different flavours of Protestantism, i'd be inclined to agree anecdotally from what i hear that the Presbyterians would be more militant and anti-catholic than the other Protestant religions, but i'd be open to correction on that. Certainly Paisley has never hid his hatred of Catholics, openly preaching it to devoted Unionists hanging on his every bigotted word.

McArmalite · 13-02-2008 4:41pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

McArmalitre's view on Ireland, 3 True irishmen, 3,999,997 west brits who do not believe the same ****e he does:D

In your dreams Fred, in your dreams.

csk · 13-02-2008 4:42pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

Actually most of them did have a problem with it. Even the ones who joined the British Army. The above statement is pure lies on your part.

Wolff · 13-02-2008 4:57pm

As Regards the Boer War - the treatment of the civilian population did lead directly to the end of the war - thats a fact (though some posters here wouldnt know one of them if it planted some semtex underneath them)

Who exposed the maltreatment - and who clamoured for the war to be stopped - the british themselves

Slave trading - who campaigned and stopped it - again the british themselves

As for converting to protestantism for food or whatever reason - catholic opression of protestants did the same and worse during the reformation

As for Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington etc they happened - the events described about Drogheda the supplies from the caliph etc did not happen

As for the 1/2 million comrades and socialists etc being carried off to concentration camps - didnt stop the IRA from climbing into bed with the nazis now either did it ?

England has been in existence for a thousand years - if it makes people happier

McArmalite · 13-02-2008 6:17pm

"As Regards the Boer War - the treatment of the civilian population did lead directly to the end of the war - thats a fact (though some posters here wouldnt know one of them if it planted some semtex underneath them)..... and who clamoured for the war to be stopped - the british themselves "

It was the Boer men "who clamoured for the war to be stopped", it was they who accepted the terms dictated by britain, it was the boers who laid down their arms, not the british ya plank :rolleyes:. The treatment of the civilian population did notlead directly to the end of the war, though it was a commendable factor, it was NOT the main factor. Just as Tony and co. ignored british public opinion of going to war due to the so called weapons of mass destruction, the conservative govt. of that day carried on regardless. Indeed, half way thru the war, in the 1900 UK general election, there was much enthusiasm for the war at this point, the Conservative govt. been returned. The main factor was the Boer men no longer had the heart to fight due to the immense death and suffering of their women and children in the concentration camps -
"thats a fact", just accept it.

" Who exposed the maltreatment ...... Slave trading - who campaigned and stopped it - again the british themselves " Ah yes, the 'thick plank' is back to square one, here we have to go again :rolleyes: - it's completely beyond me why the brits applaud themselves for abolishing their own evil practice. I mean, it's like a theif starting to fell guilty about mugging an old lady's etc and saying, I'm going to stop it, and then proclaiming how fair minded and great he is ??

As for Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington etc they happened - the events described about Drogheda the supplies from the caliph etc did not happen The events described about Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington did not happen. Enniskillen - brits exploded bomb not the IRA who had left the area, Warrington - warning that had been given by Provos ignored ( not for the first time ), Birmingham - regretful incident due to vandalism of two sets of phones the IRA unit had checked out earlier to phone warnings.

"As for the 1/2 million comrades and socialists etc being carried off to concentration camps - didnt stop the IRA from climbing into bed with the nazis now either did it ?" The world's awareness about Nazi concentration camps did not become known well into the war, the IRA, (who ironically fought against fascism in Spain, including the nazi's there), accepted weapons from the Germans on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. As far as I know, they didn't march anyone off to a nazi concentration camp with them, although if you were to listen to people like you, you think they did, they just used them on the occupation forces of our country - a noble cause. As for nazi's and beds, well, britian and the USA were happy to provide them for many escaped nazi's didn't they ?? People in glass houses etc, etc.

I hope that puts you straight. Please don't come back repeating the same rubbish as your last two postings :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred · 13-02-2008 6:35pm

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Not knowing a whole lot about the different flavours of Protestantism, i'd be inclined to agree anecdotally from what i hear that the Presbyterians would be more militant and anti-catholic than the other Protestant religions, but i'd be open to correction on that. Certainly Paisley has never hid his hatred of Catholics, openly preaching it to devoted Unionists hanging on his every bigotted word.

to put it simply, if you are a Christian, but not a catholic or Orthodox then you are a protestant. This is why I don't like the term, it is very broad and can almost be used as an insult. You get one extreme Protestant like Paisley who is a Presbytarian minister and all "Proddies" are suddenly anti Catholic which simply isn't true. Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans etc are all very different.

I don't know a great deal about unionists or orangemen, but I believe most are Presbytarian, which has (I believe) it's roots in the Scottish farming coimmunities. I remember a quote about the Presbytarian settlers in Ireland and the US that they could farm sheep with a bible in one hand and a shotgun in the other.

That said, Presbytarians are usually about as religious as your average Irish Catholic these days!

Wolff · 13-02-2008 7:52pm

ya plank

the 'thick plank' is back to square one

Well argued...

As for the IRA the defenders of Democarcy in spain - fighting the nazis all over the world..dont make me laugh - you are contradicting yourself now, if nobody knew about concentration camps until well into the war where does this fit in

"it's was conviently brushed under the carpet by the 'allies' that 1/2 a million German socialists, trade unionists, etc were taken and thrown into concentration camps before the war to die ( such policy's were secretly very populiar with the ruling class of in many countries across Europe"

So you are saying the allies didnt know about the camps till well into the war now ?

As for Enniskillen, Birmingham, Warrington sure jasus lads tem brits blew themselves up - we have photos of Paisley with his hand on the plunger behind the wall in Enniskillen - Warrington sure we plated a bomb but we didnt mean for it to go off - and birmingham sure again we planted a bomb but we didnt think it would explode ! - who is posting rubbish now ?

me wonders...and as for slavery the only people who bring it up are rabid british hating types who forget to mention the abolishment as well - the british i think dont dwell on it .

as for the boer war - educate yourself with facts not biased opinions - towards the end of the war the death rate in these camps had been reduced to acceptable levels and indeed women and children were sent back to the boers and caused them no end of hassle as they had a guerilla war to fight - all because of the backlash caused by the conditions in the camps being discoverd back in the uk - the fawcett commission set up by the Gov was expected to toe the line and report that the camps were ok - but did the exact opposite - you also neglected to mention that the gov was kicke out of office in 1906 as a result of all the cover-ups and scandals

also another thing nice about britain is its democracy - who ever voted for the IRA ? oh thats right, they use force to impose their will .

Also the Americans and the British did smuggle nazis out aided some for various reasons - but who defeated the feckin murdering so and sos in the first place ?

Most of the nazis were involved in rocket development or counter soviet involvment so they served a purpose

Dont remember Ireland doing anything to help in the war effort - oh thats right we signed the book of condolenses - for Hitler, oh well every little helps

purple'n'gold · 13-02-2008 10:24pm

[Originally Posted by Fratton Fred
Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

QUOTE=csk;55130090]Actually most of them did have a problem with it. Even the ones who joined the British Army. The above statement is pure lies on your part.[/QUOTE]

Fact: Ireland was part of the United Kingdom from 1801 to 1922; Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom.
Fact: A disproportionate number of Irishmen did go off to fight for king and country.
Fact: if they had a problem with It they wouldn’t have joined up, there was no conscription.

csk · 13-02-2008 10:51pm

double post

csk · 13-02-2008 10:52pm

purplengold wrote: »

[Originally Posted by Fratton Fred
Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

QUOTE=csk;55130090]Actually most of them did have a problem with it. Even the ones who joined the British Army. The above statement is pure lies on your part.

Fact: Ireland was part of the United Kingdom from 1801 to 1922; Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom.
Fact: A disproportionate number of Irishmen did go off to fight for king and country.
Fact: if they had a problem with It they wouldn’t have joined up, there was no conscription.

:D Dude are you serious?

The British Empire Thread

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