The British Empire Thread

PHB wrote: »

So you think that the British Empire spread democracy across the globe? Oh, you think that the Statute of Westminster was the greatest legislation ever passed? Well let's discuss that, in this thread.

Any off-topic posts in other threads which I don't think should be there will be moved into here, and the poster may well recieve a ban if he/she has been a repeat offender.

[Please note that using this thread as an excuse for personal abuse or racism (in the nationalist sense) will result in a ban.

----

Oh, I'm going to enjoy this

PHB wrote: »

So you think that the British Empire spread democracy across the globe? Oh, you think that the Statute of Westminster was the greatest legislation ever passed?

Someone actually believes these things. :eek: I'm looking forward to seeing them explain this one away.

ejmaztec

Oh well, here goes.

Firstly, I'll point out the obvious. A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. The British Empire was created by a certain amount of cunning, extreme violence, superior firepower and a limitless supply of cannon-fodder. There was also bribery and corruption to get the right people in the right place at the right time.

During the build-up of the British Empiire, there was no democracy, either in Britain itself, or anywhere else in the British Empire. It seems to me that democracy was only introduced in a lead-up to the independence of each nation. The resulting instant homemade democracies then went off on their merry may. Some of them are more democratic than others, but that's another story.

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

csk

Oh the joy. :rolleyes:

PDN

All Empires are created and run by bullies.

Having said that, I think that there is a case for arguing that, historically, colonialism introduced democracy to some countries that, left to their own devices, would never have embraced democracy.

Hardly justifies all the oppression - but there you go!

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Perhaps if the Chinese are reading this, they might not make the same mistakes as their empire-building predecessors, thereby leading to a fairer deal for our descendants.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Well we're hardly going to jump up and down about the fact. Enough people in this country have been hoodwinked by the media, and UK propagandists (Take a bow Fred, you've done your bit) about Britains atrocities in Ireland. I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

SpitfireIV

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

What?! Freakin' hell, you mean there was a famine here and people actually DIED?! (come on, do you seriously think Irish people dont know about the famine and dont blame the British for it?!)

0.45 onwards.....:rolleyes:

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

What?! Freakin' hell, you mean there was a famine here and people actually DIED?! (come on, do you seriously think Irish people dont know about the famine and dont blame the British for it?!)

0.45 onwards.....:rolleyes:

I love 'The Field'. The Bull McCabe sure showed those Brits.

:D:D

Croppy this is a post of yours from the famine thread:

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Yeah that map is a well balanced one alright, for instance:

"Escorting food shipments thru Royal and Grand Canals to Dublin for export; 17th 32nd, 45th, 66th, 13th Dragoons (whence the term goons)"

Eh, no.....thats not why Dragoons as so called.

"Carbine toting British Constabularly and Militia"

.....funny.

I personally dont like that site, its kicking up a lot of resentment and hatred for an event which is long in the past...

"Irishmen and Irishwomen!
Read this site and weep. Weep for the agonies and deaths of your people at the hands of genocidists. The authorities who imposed the curriculum, the teachers and professors who funneled it into you, have carefully kept you uninformed as to which British regiment, or that any regiment, murdered your people. Until now, that information was kept from you. You had no access to it. You do now - you read it on your computer screen! Commit the regiment's name to memory.

Never, ever, forget it!
Learn its British HQ town. As no Jewish person would ever refer to the "Jewish Oxygen Famine of 1939 - 1945", so no Irish person ought ever refer to the Irish Holocaust as a famine."

What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??

Nuff said.....

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Well we're hardly going to jump up and down about the fact. Enough people in this country have been hoodwinked by the media, and UK propagandists (Take a bow Fred, you've done your bit) about Britains atrocities in Ireland. I think its important people realise the truth about these monsters who let over a million of our people die during The Great Famine, amongst the countless other atrocities commited throughout the years.

But you know the real truth do you? finding the truth is very hard, especially when pretty much all the history of this country is written with an agenda.

Playboy

In 1845, the onset of the Famine resulted in over 1,000,000 deaths. Ottoman Caliph Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Caliph send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Caliph sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived in Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman sailors

Taken from here

Not trying to antagonize anyone but since the famine came up I thought I would post this piece of information I came across not so long ago.

No need to apologize playboy. If people aren't interested in the truth, thats their problem. The facts of the famine are there for all to see, many choose to ignore them, because heaven forbid our friends across the water might be a bit uneasy about what their ancestors were getting up to.

This map with the British flags representing the British regiments that removed Irelands food during the famine is the most damning show of the level of that evil empires malevolence:
http://home.comcast.net/~irishholocaust/Irish_Holocaust/Images/1024-map.gif

PHB

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't really see the point in this, other than to give a few people the chance to vent their hatred of all things British.

Britain had an empire, get used to it. The British Empire was no better or worse than any other empire, it just happened to include Ireland and a lot of people can't handle that fact.

Because some people seem intent on discussing this topic in every thread. Hence if you want to discuss the British empire and its effects, you can do it in here. While those who couldn't care less can not read the thread.
Solution? Everyones happy.

SpitfireIV

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Nothing personal mate, but no, I dont think I should hold my head in shame, if being a 'true' Irishman means holding resentment, bitterness and some form of a grudge for events which have long since passed then god help me but I'd sooner not be classed as 'Irish' at all! How is being able to come to terms with the past, accepting it as history and holding no resentment an embarrasment now? :rolleyes:

Its 2008, not 1798, not 1848........move on and focus on something a little more positive.

Playboy wrote: »

In 1845, the onset of the Famine resulted in over 1,000,000 deaths. Ottoman Caliph Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Caliph send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Caliph sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived in Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman sailors

Taken from here

Not trying to antagonize anyone but since the famine came up I thought I would post this piece of information I came across not so long ago.

That is also given as the reason why Drogheda has the star and half moon as their badge. That is rubbish too.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

No need to apologize playboy. If people aren't interested in the truth, thats their problem. The facts of the famine are there for all to see, many choose to ignore them, because heaven forbid our friends across the water might be a bit uneasy about what their ancestors were getting up to.

This map with the British flags representing the British regiments that removed Irelands food during the famine is the most damning show of the level of that evil empires malevolence:
http://home.comcast.net/~irishholocaust/Irish_Holocaust/Images/1024-map.gif

and how accurate is that site? does it have a political agenda?

Thought so.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Oh well, here goes.

Firstly, I'll point out the obvious. A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. The British Empire was created by a certain amount of cunning, extreme violence, superior firepower and a limitless supply of cannon-fodder. There was also bribery and corruption to get the right people in the right place at the right time.

During the build-up of the British Empiire, there was no democracy, either in Britain itself, or anywhere else in the British Empire. It seems to me that democracy was only introduced in a lead-up to the independence of each nation. The resulting instant homemade democracies then went off on their merry may. Some of them are more democratic than others, but that's another story.

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

McArmalite wrote: »

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

You love taking things out of context to suit your arguements.

Yes, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade, along with pretty much every other European country and a large number of Africans themselves. The Slave trade was probably the biggest human rights abuse in the history of the world, but you talk ass if Britain did it alone. I also wonder how many Irishmen were involved as well, although as they would have been doing so under the Union Flag, the irish of today can sit back and be all selft righteous about the whole thing.

Britian did not use Gas in Iraq, please find me something that says they did. You are, I guess, referring to an oftern misquoted passage from Churchill, but it did not happen.

Britain did not force the Chinese to use Opium, they did however wrongfully exploit the fact that they did, along with the Belgians, French and Americans.

Yes, the decendants of British (And I guess that will include Irish as well) did almost wipe out the tasmanian aboriginies, a crime that can never be repaid, just like the crimes committed by the Spanish in South America, or even the Americans in the US, (one particular Irishman springs to mind in that particular genocide).

You speak of the Britih Empire as if Ireland were not part, but they were. Ireland was not a colony, ireland was part of Britain and the Irish were very much part of Britains exploits overseas.

The British Empire was won by the Irish, Administered by the Scots and lost by the English.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britian did not use Gas in Iraq, please find me something that says they did. You are, I guess, referring to an oftern misquoted passage from Churchill, but it did not happen.

Britain did not force the Chinese to use Opium, they did however wrongfully exploit the fact that they did, along with the Belgians, French and Americans.

Yes, the decendants of British (And I guess that will include Irish as well) did almost wipe out the tasmanian aboriginies, a crime that can never be repaid, just like the crimes committed by the Spanish in South America, or even the Americans in the US, (one particular Irishman springs to mind in that particular genocide).

You speak of the Britih Empire as if Ireland were not part, but they were. Ireland was not a colony, ireland was part of Britain and the Irish were very much part of Britains exploits overseas.

The British Empire was won by the Irish, Administered by the Scots and lost by the English.

" Ireland was not a colony"

:D:D

Gas, chemicals, bombs: Britain has used them all before in Iraq -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/19/iraq.arts
http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

McArmalite wrote: »

Ireland was not a colony :D:D

Gas, chemicals, bombs: Britain has used them all before in Iraq -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/19/iraq.arts
http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

I knew you would bring that article up. There is no foundation for any of that and it was published in the anti war, anti British grauniad just before GW1. You will note that the quote from Churchill is edited and that in fact, the gas Churchill was talking about (But was never used) was teargas to quell riots. I would not say it was right, but hugely different to what you are implying.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland was not a colony, the act of Union incorporated it into the UK. Many of your forefathers had no problem with that, in fact a disproportionate number went off to fight for King and Country all over the world.

I knew you would bring that article up. There is no foundation for any of that and it was published in the anti war, anti British grauniad just before GW1. You will note that the quote from Churchill is edited and that in fact, the gas Churchill was talking about (But was never used) was teargas to quell riots. I would not say it was right, but hugely different to what you are implying.

Oh so I see, the country, all 32 counties of it, had a referendum and accepted the Act of Union :rolleyes:. And BTW, NONE of my crowd EVER had anything to do with the occupying terrorist british army - NOT ONE. Don't try and tell me my family history.

My favourite song about the Empire - Rock On Rockall by the Wolfe Tones.

Oh the Empire is finished no foreign lands to steal
But the greedy eyes of England are staring towards the seas
Two hundred miles from Donegal, there's a place that's called Rockall
And the groping hands of Whitehall are grabbing at its walls

Oh rock on Rockall, you'll never fall to Britain's greedy hands
Or you'll meet the same resistance that you did in many lands
May the seagulls rise and pluck your eyes and the water crush your shell,
And the natural gas will burn your ass and blow you to hell.

For this rock is part of Ireland, 'cos it' s written in folklore
That Fionn MacCumhaill took a sod of grass and he threw it to the fore,
Then he tossed a pebble across the sea, where ever it did fall,
For the sod became the Isle of Man and the pebble's called Rockall.

Now the seas will not be silent, while Britannia stalks the waves
And remember that the Irish will never be your slaves,
And remember that Britannia, well, - you rule the waves no more
So keep your hands off Rockall - it's Irish to the core.

McArmalite wrote: »

Oh so I see, the country, all 32 counties of it, had a referendum and accepted the Act of Union :rolleyes:. And BTW, NONE of my crowd EVER had anything to do with the occupying terrorist british army - NOT ONE. Don't try and tell me my family history.

oohh, that's a yes then. Where did they fight, India, Afghanistan, Turkey, or was it in South Africa during the Zulu wars, there were plenty of Irishmen there. In fact, is it right that the majority of officers at Rourkes Drift were Irish?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oohh, that's a yes then. Where did they fight, India, Afghanistan, Turkey, or was it in South Africa during the Zulu wars, there were plenty of Irishmen there. In fact, is it right that the majority of officers at Rourkes Drift were Irish?

Rourkes Drift / Zulu's - check out my thread - The Epitome of British History and Military Lies

. Surprised you forgot that one

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and how accurate is that site? does it have a political agenda?

Thought so.

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

why is it that anyone who refuses to accept your point of view s cheerleading and defending them? This debate is ages old, was it genocide? no it was not. was it a callous act by the rich, using soldiers to protect their exports, yes of course it was. Britain did not cause the famine, but they did little to ease the suffering of those caught up in it. Out of curiosity, how much aid came from Britain to Ireland, not from government but from the people of Britain?

Yes the Empire got rich off the backs off smaller countries, which Empire are you referring to? as I said earler, Britain had an empire, no better or worse than anyone elses.

Quis Separabit

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I love 'The Field'. The Bull McCabe sure showed those Brits. :D:D

Croppy this is a post of yours from the famine thread:

You should hang your head in shame. Your slavish attitude towards our former colonial masters is an embarassement. Over a million of your countrymen were killed by Britain and the free trade policy they inflicted on this country. All you can do is say "What are we supposed to do? Track down the relatives of British soldiers during the famine and kill them or something??". Nuff said.....

Yes, the same famine which affected the north, but curiously the more organised Presbyterians in the north, many of whom had smaller plots of land to grow food on,less affection for drink, fewer children and tennants orgs survived it.

Quis Separabit

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its an undisputed fact that British regiments took food from starving Irish people during the Great Famine. Cheerleading and defending these lowlifes is quite contemptible. A great wrong has been done, and only recently a lot of information has come into the public domain about the extent of Britains involvement in it. One million dead in a callous act of genocide, yet people constantly come on and defend, and downplay as much as possible Britains role in all this. The Empire got rich by inflicting misery and pain around the world, mostly on small nations such as ourselves, yet its leaders get awarded medals and suchforth for bravery. I for one am glad the Empire has fallen asunder!

.....You mean British (most likely Irish Catholic) soldiers protected gombeen Catholic storekeepers from potential rioters as well as food from being stolen, lets get the facts straight.

Didnt see the Catholic church doing much either.

Aid came from the church of Ireland and Queen Victoria.

Quis Separabit

McArmalite wrote: »

" A country does not build up a huge empire by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones. ", which is a bit like saying, a notorious serial killer doesn't become a notorious serial killer by being nice to people and inviting them round for tea and scones.

Creating millions of African slaves, forcing the Chinese to buy Opium even though the consumption of it in britain was banned, the use of poisionous gas on 10,000's of people in Iraq in the 20's, concentration camps used decades before the Nazi's, the list of war crimes perpetrated by it is almost endless. They even succeded in something the Nazi's falied to do, wiping out a whole race of people - the Tasmanian Aborigines.

All this twisted scheme to yield an enormous amount of money for the british aristocracy. Oh yes, a history to be proud of indeed.

Britain did not create slavery in Africa it was always there.

Britain actually led the way in abolishing it.

Did the republic not use "concentration camps"(an emotive term for temporary military camps with barbed wire, nothing like Nazi death camps) in the civil war ?

The reality is the wealth we have today, that inclues Ireland, has its origins in the global capitalist economy created by the empire. The modern stock markets whos function we rely on is a modern extension of this.

Our culture and economies are products of the British empire.

Britain led the way in bringing civilsation to places like India, pity the empire is still not around today, the world would be a much more stable place.