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15-06-2019, 07:43   #16
visg
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Originally Posted by salmocab View Post
The educate together first come first served is too blunt, mate of mine couldn’t get his second child in based on that so now has to drop two children to two different schools in the morning.
I think it’s reasonable to have a sibling still attending first policy.
When none of the schools would have an admission policy, you do not run into problems like this. If there are enough places for each area, and no admission policies there are no issues.

Issues are created by certain schools bringing in admission policies. The pressure on Educate Together increases as they do take every child.
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15-06-2019, 07:50   #17
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The vast majority of school funding in Ireland comes from the state, not the churches. They may own legacy buildings or donated lands and have driven things decades ago, but school building programmes, particularly at primary level were almost always driven by the state. Teacher's salaries are paid by the state. There's an annual capitation grant per student per year and there are various other funds made available for capital expenditure, special needs supports and so on.

I find that we are having a discussion about divestment in a complete vacuum of facts. I would like to see a full, transparent publication of who's funding what in each school. That way we could maybe have a discussion, as from what I am aware, the role of the 'sponsors' of schools in terms of financing is quite small relative to what the state puts in, particularly when you consider pay and pensions.

We also have created an issue where we've duplication and triplication and even quadruplication of facilities because they're nominally owned by different sponsors (usually religious communities) or they're divided by gender and so on. So, typically Irish primary schools are small and often don't seem to reflect modern settlement patterns or demands in many cases. We don't have concepts like school districts or involvement of local authorities or planning authorities in any serious way, as would be the norm in most countries.

But I would like to see a proper breakdown of exactly what's being funded and by whom as without that all these debates get swept up into people making statements without any facts and figures to back them up.

I'd also like to see an analysis of costs and efficiency of use of state resources where you've got clusters of multiple schools that are basically divided up for what amount to sectarian and gender segregation reasons or legacy sponsors.

It just seems utterly crazy to me that we have so little transparency in what is basically one of our largest areas of public expenditure.

Nice and helpful reply, thanks.


I think that having the building/land from the church is a LOT.

And I know that salaries etc are not paid by the church, but I believe that materials are. I have walked into different schools and there is a huge difference to what each school has in materials.



While walking through the building of one school, I have only found books from the 90s and haven't seen a single computer. I would not say there are no computers but you could clearly see it was poor in materials. This while other schools can be quite modern.



Transparency will be the key indeed. Fully agree with that.
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15-06-2019, 07:51   #18
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Why would you want your child going to a catholic school if you don’t agree with Catholicism ?
If you dislike Catholics that much surely the nearest educate together school is best for your family

I never said I dislike Catholics. I dislike the fact that not everybody is welcome. Education is a human right.
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15-06-2019, 08:22   #19
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I never said I dislike Catholics. I dislike the fact that not everybody is welcome. Education is a human right.
Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .
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15-06-2019, 08:34   #20
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Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .

I think you are overlooking the fact that the majority of schools are religious in Ireland. So usually it is your only option.



If you need a guaranteed place in ET, you will need to sign up your kids before birth at this stage


As you mention the US and UK, the situation is way different.



I would never complain if my kids goes to a religious school. I will be happy that my kid has a school.



I think we should all agree that you shouldn't make it difficult for a child to find a school. In combination with the housing crisis this is toxic. I think everybody should understand that. People need to help each other in crisis and the Bible mentions this as well. The Bible is not about exclusion at all.
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15-06-2019, 08:50   #21
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Nice and helpful reply, thanks.


I think that having the building/land from the church is a LOT.

And I know that salaries etc are not paid by the church, but I believe that materials are. I have walked into different schools and there is a huge difference to what each school has in materials.



While walking through the building of one school, I have only found books from the 90s and haven't seen a single computer. I would not say there are no computers but you could clearly see it was poor in materials. This while other schools can be quite modern.



Transparency will be the key indeed. Fully agree with that.
The only time schools get funding from the Diocese is when they are in financial difficulties, and have run up large debts.

What's the basic for your belief that the church pays for school materials
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15-06-2019, 09:03   #22
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The only time schools get funding from the Diocese is when they are in financial difficulties, and have run up large debts.

What's the basic for your belief that the church pays for school materials

Indeed I do not have proof of this. I said "I believe"


The reason I think this is because I have seen huge differences in materials between schools. I have also experienced a (non-religious)school asking for money from the parents to buy materials.



There is no transparency about this and hard to find facts.





So your statement would be that pretty much no money from the church goes to the school? Why are schools often very attached to 1 specific church?? They often give preference to boys/girls from one specific church.
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15-06-2019, 09:38   #23
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Indeed I do not have proof of this. I said "I believe"


The reason I think this is because I have seen huge differences in materials between schools. I have also experienced a (non-religious)school asking for money from the parents to buy materials.



There is no transparency about this and hard to find facts.





So your statement would be that pretty much no money from the church goes to the school? Why are schools often very attached to 1 specific church?? They often give preference to boys/girls from one specific church.
Most schools ask parents for money for materials. All schools have received IT equipment grants over past few years, our local school with approximately 130 pupils have received €12000 for IT equipment. A lot of the variations on the quality of the school buildings, materials etc is down to the management of the school and how they spend the money allocated to them.

Because the school buildings are historically built on land owned by that particular church, and that, in a lot of cases is the only attachment the church has to the school, schools are run by boards of management and the teachers.

Are you aware of the current admissions policy for primary schools, some schools may not have updated their website's, but the current policy is the law.
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15-06-2019, 09:54   #24
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Originally Posted by tabby aspreme View Post
Most schools ask parents for money for materials. All schools have received IT equipment grants over past few years, our local school with approximately 130 pupils have received €12000 for IT equipment. A lot of the variations on the quality of the school buildings, materials etc is down to the management of the school and how they spend the money allocated to them.

Because the school buildings are historically built on land owned by that particular church, and that, in a lot of cases is the only attachment the church has to the school, schools are run by boards of management and the teachers.

Are you aware of the current admissions policy for primary schools, some schools may not have updated their website's, but the current policy is the law.

And that is the fun part. The law changes and nobody bothers to update the admission policy on the website. Such an important change!


As I explained earlier there are still legal ways of exclusion. Because an admission policy can contain multiple points, it is easy to refuse somebody on other grounds once you know they don't have a baptism cert. They still ask for your religion on the forms!



I think that the some reactions on this thread show the actual problem. People don't want to see or recognize the problem. A lot of people actually like that system that was there for decades. There are also people who struggle because of this. I think education should be number one priority and there should not be any admission policy. First come first serve from ET is normal as they would have to expand more then triple if they did not have that.


The housing crisis forces people to move around. Schools have enormous waiting lists and complicated admission policies. There is not really a proper registration system where everybody is registered. This way the government cannot fully monitor who goes to school or not. All of this together can make things bad.


The way to move forward is to be open minded. Not just pure greed and self interest only.
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15-06-2019, 09:55   #25
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Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .
Protestant schools certainly do not take only Protestants in their schools. They give in general first choice to Protestants.
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15-06-2019, 10:03   #26
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Protestant schools certainly do not take only Protestants in their schools. They give in general first choice to Protestants.

I agree that it is not right. They are a minority so focus on that will not change much. I don't know why people here focus on it much.
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15-06-2019, 11:38   #27
 
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State funding:

Current expenditure:
Teacher's pay and pensions.
Secretary
Ancillary grant - covers caretaker etc.
Capitation grant - €375/student per yr (this is way higher for students with special needs).
ICT grant (covers technology) (5 million total pot depends on size of school but can be tens of thousands in larger ones)
School books grant (seed capital to start school books rental scheme)
DEIS grant which covered schools identified as needing extra assistance for social inclusion.
Minor works grants - pays for minor capital upgrades to buildings.
Then you've major capital grants for buildings, site acquisition and so on.

Outside of that money is raised by schools themselves - usually fundraising from parents or through various drives. The sponsors typically don't put significant money in.

Overall the Irish government spends €10.8 billion a year on education in general.

Differences in facilities and martials are down to how an individual school prioritised it's expenditure. Some will place more emphasis on ICT for example than others. It can vary very significantly depending on who's driving the management priorities - principal and board of management.

The biggest issue that I would be concerned about here is the duplication/triplication that goes on in cities and towns. You can have huge numbers of very small schools - I've looked at lists that have shown 10 primary schools in one suburb of a city for example.

The issue with that is it's driven by diversify of sponsors - different religions, different religious orders, gender segregation (more common in cities than rural areas), gaelscoils, educate together etc and as more religious communities establish, there'll be more demand for more school because we never developed a public school model.

Each school has buildings, overheads, secretaries, management costs etc etc and it's a big part of why money gets spread so thin.

Also it's providing education based on needs of religious communities and their concerns, rather than looking at the best outcome for students, best facilities and supports for staff, impact on the overall state financial position.

If we maximize the expenditure by creating umpteen versions of primary and secondary schools in urban areas we also pull money from budgets that could be helping small schools in rural areas that have no option but to be small scale.

It also absorbs funds that could be going into school libraries, funding support services like psychologists, support teachers and specialist services, special needs assistance, ICT, books, sports facilities, STEM facilities etc etc

Look at something like school meals: we've primary schools on such a small scale that things like school meals are even way too complex to provide. Whereas that's rather normal in many European countries.

I just see a system that seems to be entirely driven by nominal sponsors' (private interests) perceived needs and not educational or societal needs.

Last edited by Lackadaisical; 15-06-2019 at 11:54.
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15-06-2019, 14:05   #28
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Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.
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15-06-2019, 14:16   #29
 
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Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.
The other % is made up by voluntary contributions though. It's not coming from the church. It's coming from the parents and sometimes fund raising drives by the schools themselves for exceptional items.

Last edited by Lackadaisical; 15-06-2019 at 14:20.
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15-06-2019, 22:16   #30
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too many differences, too much hassle. Every school should just get 110% from the state and no admission policies should be allowed. I think religious schools will keep their identity anyway. Educating children is not something to be greedy about.

Much better for the future
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