Will exclusion based on religion really stop?

visg

The cabinet has decided in May 2018 that 'exclusion based on religion' is not allowed anymore.

From experience I mentioned that they submit you to a religious school 'based on a number of factors'. This actually means the same and they just don't admit that it is because of the baptism cert.

I ran into this when looking for a school for my kids.

Why should education be a privilege? Isn't that a human right? Why should I be super happy when my kid gets accepted to a local school? Shouldn't this be common sense?

The mix of a bad housing crisis in combination with this baptism barriers actually creates a nasty cocktail. I have seen examples of grown kids staying home for months to wait for the new semester. They are forced to move because of the housing crisis and can't immediately go to the new school. Why do kids have to commute cross-city in order to go to school? The issue is not in rural areas. The issue is cities or commuting towns.

Would it be good if the government actually checks if school still don't follow this method? Is there any enforcement for this?

As a start it should be forbidden to refuse students. If they are full, the school should be the one to find a new place and not the student. By EU law there is compulsory education in each country. Nobody is monitoring and who knows how many kids (temporary) don't go to school.

byhookorbycrook

If you have evidence that a school has contravened this rule, take a section 29 action against the school. You don't have an automatic right to attend the nearest school, whatever your beliefs.Did you get a copy of the school enrollment policy? Multi-denom schools also refuse students if over-subscribed, so it can be more a question of lack of places, rather than religious discrimination. Ironically enough, COI and other minority religion schools can still refuse entry to their schools on religious grounds
If a child is left without a place, it's up to Tusla, through the EWO to help find a place:
https://www.tusla.ie/uploads/content/parents_and_carers_guide_to_school_applications_final.pdf

visg

@byhookorbycrook Good information, thank you.

The painpoints are still:
* I know the enrollment policies. They often have multiple rules. The issue I find is that it is not common sense to accept every child. Lots of rules and hoops. I think that at the end of the day religion still plays a part. As there are many rules, it is easy to not accept somebody on other grounds when they are not catholic. Preferences are often given to families who already went to the school (or related schools) before. The rule is just active for 1 year.
* It should actually be the government reporting children that are left without a place, and not the other way around.
* "You don't have an automatic right to attend the nearest school, whatever your beliefs" -- This should be the starting point. You shouldn't be forced to make extra costs in order for your child to go to school.

Somehow I do understand it. From what I understand: Schools don't get much money from the government. The church helps. When you are related to the church you can have better funded education. So actually the whole system should be changed and schools should get more money.

I like educate together who does not have any rules
"Educate Together national schools welcome all children" PERIOD!.... "What has set Educate Together schools apart over the last forty years is that no child on entering an Educate Together school is asked their religion as part of the admissions process. While in school, no child is separated or treated differently in any way due to their religious or philosophical beliefs" -- BEAUTIFUL words that are embraced.

Just too bad that you need to sign up your kids before/around birth if you want have a guaranteed place And I think that explains a lot on itself.

visg

And actually a very quick random google search shows me this:

stmarysbnslucan.com /wp-content/uploads/PDF/StMarys-Enrollment-Policy-2018.pdf
(it says 2018 but it is still active on the site at this moment)

"
Criteria for the Admission of Junior InfantsIn the event of applications for enrolment exceeding, or being expected to exceed, the number of places available the Board of Management will allocate places using the criteria below, and in that order. 1.Catholic boys resident in St. Mary’s parish, Lucan.2.Brothers of boys already enrolled in St. Mary’s BNS, including brothers of past pupils.3.Brothers of boys enrolled in St. Mary’s Girls’ National School.
Enrolment Policy2 | Page4.Catholic boys living outside the parish who do not have a Catholic school in their own parish5.All Non-Catholic boys who are resident in St. Mary’s parish, Lucan6. All other boys who apply to the school
"

So this is forbidden and will be followed up with immediately once reported? And with my random google search I found this one existing example only.

byhookorbycrook

Yes. it's forbidden for Catholic schools, but not other religions.
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2018/1003/1000643-education/

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2018-press-releases/PR18-10-03.html



Educate Together schools do indeed have rules to limit enrollment. 1st come, first served is used in some, for example, which can limit access to newcomer children who move into the area.

"Children will be offered places on a first come, first served basis, "
https://www.skerrieseducatetogether.ie/enrolment-policy/

visg

And that is fair as no other aspects play any part.

Other religions then Catholics are just a minority and the impact is very small. But i do agree they should have to take everybody as well.

judeboy101

Some catholic schools have left the catholic only in on purpose, no doubt at behest of archbishop. They are looking for a test case because they believe that they will win a supreme court case of the unconstitutionality of the law.

salmocab

The educate together first come first served is too blunt, mate of mine couldn’t get his second child in based on that so now has to drop two children to two different schools in the morning.
I think it’s reasonable to have a sibling still attending first policy.

jimd2

visg wrote: »

And that is fair as no other aspects play any part.

Other religions then Catholics are just a minority and the impact is very small. But i do agree they should have to take everybody as well.

What do you mean by “no other aspects play any part”? Do you mean apart from the time the child applied to the school?

jimd2

judeboy101 wrote: »

Some catholic schools have left the catholic only in on purpose, no doubt at behest of archbishop. They are looking for a test case because they believe that they will win a supreme court case of the unconstitutionality of the law.

Have you any examples of this?

judeboy101

jimd2 wrote: »

Have you any examples of this?

About 2 mins on schooldays.ie got me

https://www.glencullenschool.ie/policies/enrolment-policy-2/

As i said most RC schools have removed it but a few will be told to keep it in just to test the water. Theirs a notorious CoI school in wicklow abusing this new ruling to the nth degree.

byhookorbycrook

judeboy101 wrote: »

About 2 mins on schooldays.ie got me

https://www.glencullenschool.ie/policies/enrolment-policy-2/

As i said most RC schools have removed it but a few will be told to keep it in just to test the water. Theirs a notorious CoI school in wicklow abusing this new ruling to the nth degree.

So you are actually speculating, rather than basing your statement on fact?
And COI schools can discriminate on a religious basis.

Lackadaisical

visg wrote: »

From what I understand: Schools don't get much money from the government. The church helps. When you are related to the church you can have better funded education. So actually the whole system should be changed and schools should get more money. f.

The vast majority of school funding in Ireland comes from the state, not the churches. They may own legacy buildings or donated lands and have driven things decades ago, but school building programmes, particularly at primary level were almost always driven by the state. Teacher's salaries are paid by the state. There's an annual capitation grant per student per year and there are various other funds made available for capital expenditure, special needs supports and so on.

I find that we are having a discussion about divestment in a complete vacuum of facts. I would like to see a full, transparent publication of who's funding what in each school. That way we could maybe have a discussion, as from what I am aware, the role of the 'sponsors' of schools in terms of financing is quite small relative to what the state puts in, particularly when you consider pay and pensions.

We also have created an issue where we've duplication and triplication and even quadruplication of facilities because they're nominally owned by different sponsors (usually religious communities) or they're divided by gender and so on. So, typically Irish primary schools are small and often don't seem to reflect modern settlement patterns or demands in many cases. We don't have concepts like school districts or involvement of local authorities or planning authorities in any serious way, as would be the norm in most countries.

But I would like to see a proper breakdown of exactly what's being funded and by whom as without that all these debates get swept up into people making statements without any facts and figures to back them up.

I'd also like to see an analysis of costs and efficiency of use of state resources where you've got clusters of multiple schools that are basically divided up for what amount to sectarian and gender segregation reasons or legacy sponsors.

It just seems utterly crazy to me that we have so little transparency in what is basically one of our largest areas of public expenditure.

LuasSimon

Why would you want your child going to a catholic school if you don’t agree with Catholicism ?
If you dislike Catholics that much surely the nearest educate together school is best for your family

salmocab

LuasSimon wrote: »

Why would you want your child going to a catholic school if you don’t agree with Catholicism ?
If you dislike Catholics that much surely the nearest educate together school is best for your family

There aren’t that many ET schools for a start and even if your not religious very often the catholic school is a very good school. The ethos is often nominal at this stage. People want the best education for their child and I’d say the religious side of a school is quite far down the list of what people are looking for.
People want a good, well ran school that’s accessible to them. At this stage most schools get how well they are ran from the principal not the religious order that used to run the place.

visg

salmocab wrote: »

The educate together first come first served is too blunt, mate of mine couldn’t get his second child in based on that so now has to drop two children to two different schools in the morning.
I think it’s reasonable to have a sibling still attending first policy.

When none of the schools would have an admission policy, you do not run into problems like this. If there are enough places for each area, and no admission policies there are no issues.

Issues are created by certain schools bringing in admission policies. The pressure on Educate Together increases as they do take every child.

visg

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The vast majority of school funding in Ireland comes from the state, not the churches. They may own legacy buildings or donated lands and have driven things decades ago, but school building programmes, particularly at primary level were almost always driven by the state. Teacher's salaries are paid by the state. There's an annual capitation grant per student per year and there are various other funds made available for capital expenditure, special needs supports and so on.

I find that we are having a discussion about divestment in a complete vacuum of facts. I would like to see a full, transparent publication of who's funding what in each school. That way we could maybe have a discussion, as from what I am aware, the role of the 'sponsors' of schools in terms of financing is quite small relative to what the state puts in, particularly when you consider pay and pensions.

We also have created an issue where we've duplication and triplication and even quadruplication of facilities because they're nominally owned by different sponsors (usually religious communities) or they're divided by gender and so on. So, typically Irish primary schools are small and often don't seem to reflect modern settlement patterns or demands in many cases. We don't have concepts like school districts or involvement of local authorities or planning authorities in any serious way, as would be the norm in most countries.

But I would like to see a proper breakdown of exactly what's being funded and by whom as without that all these debates get swept up into people making statements without any facts and figures to back them up.

I'd also like to see an analysis of costs and efficiency of use of state resources where you've got clusters of multiple schools that are basically divided up for what amount to sectarian and gender segregation reasons or legacy sponsors.

It just seems utterly crazy to me that we have so little transparency in what is basically one of our largest areas of public expenditure.

Nice and helpful reply, thanks.


I think that having the building/land from the church is a LOT.

And I know that salaries etc are not paid by the church, but I believe that materials are. I have walked into different schools and there is a huge difference to what each school has in materials.



While walking through the building of one school, I have only found books from the 90s and haven't seen a single computer. I would not say there are no computers but you could clearly see it was poor in materials. This while other schools can be quite modern.



Transparency will be the key indeed. Fully agree with that.

visg

LuasSimon wrote: »

Why would you want your child going to a catholic school if you don’t agree with Catholicism ?
If you dislike Catholics that much surely the nearest educate together school is best for your family

I never said I dislike Catholics. I dislike the fact that not everybody is welcome. Education is a human right.

LuasSimon

visg wrote: »

I never said I dislike Catholics. I dislike the fact that not everybody is welcome. Education is a human right.

Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .

visg

LuasSimon wrote: »

Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .

I think you are overlooking the fact that the majority of schools are religious in Ireland. So usually it is your only option.



If you need a guaranteed place in ET, you will need to sign up your kids before birth at this stage:)


As you mention the US and UK, the situation is way different.



I would never complain if my kids goes to a religious school. I will be happy that my kid has a school.



I think we should all agree that you shouldn't make it difficult for a child to find a school. In combination with the housing crisis this is toxic. I think everybody should understand that. People need to help each other in crisis and the Bible mentions this as well. The Bible is not about exclusion at all.

tabby aspreme

visg wrote: »

Nice and helpful reply, thanks.


I think that having the building/land from the church is a LOT.

And I know that salaries etc are not paid by the church, but I believe that materials are. I have walked into different schools and there is a huge difference to what each school has in materials.



While walking through the building of one school, I have only found books from the 90s and haven't seen a single computer. I would not say there are no computers but you could clearly see it was poor in materials. This while other schools can be quite modern.



Transparency will be the key indeed. Fully agree with that.

The only time schools get funding from the Diocese is when they are in financial difficulties, and have run up large debts.

What's the basic for your belief that the church pays for school materials

visg

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The only time schools get funding from the Diocese is when they are in financial difficulties, and have run up large debts.

What's the basic for your belief that the church pays for school materials

Indeed I do not have proof of this. I said "I believe"


The reason I think this is because I have seen huge differences in materials between schools. I have also experienced a (non-religious)school asking for money from the parents to buy materials.



There is no transparency about this and hard to find facts.





So your statement would be that pretty much no money from the church goes to the school? Why are schools often very attached to 1 specific church?? They often give preference to boys/girls from one specific church.

tabby aspreme

visg wrote: »

Indeed I do not have proof of this. I said "I believe"


The reason I think this is because I have seen huge differences in materials between schools. I have also experienced a (non-religious)school asking for money from the parents to buy materials.



There is no transparency about this and hard to find facts.





So your statement would be that pretty much no money from the church goes to the school? Why are schools often very attached to 1 specific church?? They often give preference to boys/girls from one specific church.

Most schools ask parents for money for materials. All schools have received IT equipment grants over past few years, our local school with approximately 130 pupils have received €12000 for IT equipment. A lot of the variations on the quality of the school buildings, materials etc is down to the management of the school and how they spend the money allocated to them.

Because the school buildings are historically built on land owned by that particular church, and that, in a lot of cases is the only attachment the church has to the school, schools are run by boards of management and the teachers.

Are you aware of the current admissions policy for primary schools, some schools may not have updated their website's, but the current policy is the law.

visg

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Most schools ask parents for money for materials. All schools have received IT equipment grants over past few years, our local school with approximately 130 pupils have received €12000 for IT equipment. A lot of the variations on the quality of the school buildings, materials etc is down to the management of the school and how they spend the money allocated to them.

Because the school buildings are historically built on land owned by that particular church, and that, in a lot of cases is the only attachment the church has to the school, schools are run by boards of management and the teachers.

Are you aware of the current admissions policy for primary schools, some schools may not have updated their website's, but the current policy is the law.

And that is the fun part. The law changes and nobody bothers to update the admission policy on the website. Such an important change!


As I explained earlier there are still legal ways of exclusion. Because an admission policy can contain multiple points, it is easy to refuse somebody on other grounds once you know they don't have a baptism cert. They still ask for your religion on the forms!



I think that the some reactions on this thread show the actual problem. People don't want to see or recognize the problem. A lot of people actually like that system that was there for decades. There are also people who struggle because of this. I think education should be number one priority and there should not be any admission policy. First come first serve from ET is normal as they would have to expand more then triple if they did not have that.


The housing crisis forces people to move around. Schools have enormous waiting lists and complicated admission policies. There is not really a proper registration system where everybody is registered. This way the government cannot fully monitor who goes to school or not. All of this together can make things bad.


The way to move forward is to be open minded. Not just pure greed and self interest only.

salmocab

LuasSimon wrote: »

Protestant schools only take Protestants in their schools as well . If a religion owns a school surely they are entitled to have their own crew going there . If they aren’t allowed control who enters their own buildings they might as well close it down so no one has a school to go to .
More educate together schools or else those who disagree with religion have to travel further with their children to one . In England and America ca you can’t get into catholic schools such is the demand and here people are giving out about having to go to one .

Protestant schools certainly do not take only Protestants in their schools. They give in general first choice to Protestants.

visg

salmocab wrote: »

Protestant schools certainly do not take only Protestants in their schools. They give in general first choice to Protestants.

I agree that it is not right. They are a minority so focus on that will not change much. I don't know why people here focus on it much.

Lackadaisical

State funding:

Current expenditure:
Teacher's pay and pensions.
Secretary
Ancillary grant - covers caretaker etc.
Capitation grant - €375/student per yr (this is way higher for students with special needs).
ICT grant (covers technology) (5 million total pot depends on size of school but can be tens of thousands in larger ones)
School books grant (seed capital to start school books rental scheme)
DEIS grant which covered schools identified as needing extra assistance for social inclusion.
Minor works grants - pays for minor capital upgrades to buildings.
Then you've major capital grants for buildings, site acquisition and so on.

Outside of that money is raised by schools themselves - usually fundraising from parents or through various drives. The sponsors typically don't put significant money in.

Overall the Irish government spends €10.8 billion a year on education in general.

Differences in facilities and martials are down to how an individual school prioritised it's expenditure. Some will place more emphasis on ICT for example than others. It can vary very significantly depending on who's driving the management priorities - principal and board of management.

The biggest issue that I would be concerned about here is the duplication/triplication that goes on in cities and towns. You can have huge numbers of very small schools - I've looked at lists that have shown 10 primary schools in one suburb of a city for example.

The issue with that is it's driven by diversify of sponsors - different religions, different religious orders, gender segregation (more common in cities than rural areas), gaelscoils, educate together etc and as more religious communities establish, there'll be more demand for more school because we never developed a public school model.

Each school has buildings, overheads, secretaries, management costs etc etc and it's a big part of why money gets spread so thin.

Also it's providing education based on needs of religious communities and their concerns, rather than looking at the best outcome for students, best facilities and supports for staff, impact on the overall state financial position.

If we maximize the expenditure by creating umpteen versions of primary and secondary schools in urban areas we also pull money from budgets that could be helping small schools in rural areas that have no option but to be small scale.

It also absorbs funds that could be going into school libraries, funding support services like psychologists, support teachers and specialist services, special needs assistance, ICT, books, sports facilities, STEM facilities etc etc

Look at something like school meals: we've primary schools on such a small scale that things like school meals are even way too complex to provide. Whereas that's rather normal in many European countries.

I just see a system that seems to be entirely driven by nominal sponsors' (private interests) perceived needs and not educational or societal needs.

judeboy101

Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.

Lackadaisical

judeboy101 wrote: »

Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.

The other % is made up by voluntary contributions though. It's not coming from the church. It's coming from the parents and sometimes fund raising drives by the schools themselves for exceptional items.

visg

too many differences, too much hassle. Every school should just get 110% from the state and no admission policies should be allowed. I think religious schools will keep their identity anyway. Educating children is not something to be greedy about.

Much better for the future

byhookorbycrook

And worth pointing out that Educate Togeyher schools aren’t the only multi-denominational schools out there - many Gaelscoileanna under the Foras are also multi-d.

Lackadaisical

It's not something to be greedy about but the budgets are constrained by what's possible and if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes.

The resources aren't unlimited.

tabby aspreme

judeboy101 wrote: »

Vol schools typically only receive 70% of the funding they need from the state, ETB schools get 100% of funding.

How do ETB schools get more money, is it higher capitation, and ancillary service payments.

judeboy101

tabby aspreme wrote: »

How do ETB schools get more money, is it higher capitation, and ancillary service payments.

All etb schools pull from central fund that can buy in bulk and reduce cost. Now the down side is etb's are open to massive fraud due to lack of oversight (see kildare etb for example). Also many etb's schools are new as gov push secular schools, only one new vol secondary school in Dublin in last round of new schools. New schools need less but etb fund same size so plenty to go around. If Ireland were run like most vol schools finances we would be in a much Healthier place.

tabby aspreme

visg wrote: »

I agree that it is not right. They are a minority so focus on that will not change much. I don't know why people here focus on it much.

OP , so you don't want people to focus on admissions policies of minority schools where religious discrimination is allowed, yet you start a thread on perceived religious discrimination in schools, in which, it is illegal to discriminate on religious grounds.

visg

tabby aspreme wrote: »

OP , so you don't want people to focus on admissions policies of minority schools where religious discrimination is allowed, yet you start a thread on perceived religious discrimination in schools, in which, it is illegal to discriminate on religious grounds.

You are changing my words:)


I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



As I said:
no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)

judeboy101

visg wrote: »

You are changing my words:)


I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



As I said:
no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)

Of course you need a way to filter kids, otherwise you could end up with some kids never seeing school. Imagine your 4 yr old doesn't get in, you try again the nxt yr doesn't, year after that doesn't, now you've a 7 yr old with no school. (Assuming you live on a remote island and no chance of another school)

salmocab

I think every school should have an admission policy, it should be reasonable stuff though like sibling currently attending then a geographic area (not one school per area but a broader one with overlaps) as children from miles away taking spots may force other children to travel miles and that could go on. I’m sure there a few other reasonable criteria that could be used too.
Oh just seen above age too preference to 5yo over 4 yo is reasonable too.

visg

Lackadaisical wrote: »

It's not something to be greedy about but the budgets are constrained by what's possible and if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes.

The resources aren't unlimited.

From my point of view you are now (almost) exactly highlighting the whole issue in a one liner.



"if you squander them on unnecessary divisions the net result is poor facilities and outcomes"


Exactly what is happening now and why education is not always properly funded. There are enormous differences between schools and this should not be the case. Lack of oversight and transparency. There is no oversight due to all the differences.





And think about the fact that we are now in a reasonable good economic state. What happens when there would be an economic decline? And this might be closer then some people think. Therefor you need to invest during the good times. Education should be above all.

visg

salmocab wrote: »

I think every school should have an admission policy, it should be reasonable stuff though like sibling currently attending then a geographic area (not one school per area but a broader one with overlaps) as children from miles away taking spots may force other children to travel miles and that could go on. I’m sure there a few other reasonable criteria that could be used too.
Oh just seen above age too preference to 5yo over 4 yo is reasonable too.

I think you could be questioning why children from miles away would be applying in the first place anyway. If they would not be forced to do so, they wouldn't.

salmocab

visg wrote: »

I think you could be questioning why children from miles away would be applying in the first place anyway. If they would not be forced to do so, they wouldn't.

I’m not questioning anything, there are multiple reasons why someone might bring their child miles to a different school. Myself we are looking at getting our children into a different school to the closest one albeit the others are between a mile and a mile and a half away as we live in aDublin. But that all said when it comes to it I’ve no problem with local kids getting a place over kids that live much further away. Obviously what constitutes local depends on where you live in Dublin 3 or 4 miles could get you to maybe 8 or 9 schools and in a rural town that might not get you to another one at all.

visg

salmocab wrote: »

I’m not questioning anything, there are multiple reasons why someone might bring their child miles to a different school. Myself we are looking at getting our children into a different school to the closest one albeit the others are between a mile and a mile and a half away as we live in aDublin. But that all said when it comes to it I’ve no problem with local kids getting a place over kids that live much further away. Obviously what constitutes local depends on where you live in Dublin 3 or 4 miles could get you to maybe 8 or 9 schools and in a rural town that might not get you to another one at all.

And what would be your view on:


Some expat works for a US company and just moved to a commuting town of Dublin. I know that some might advise to go back to your own country:) but lets be honest, a large part of the economy are foreign firms that attract expats.



- educate together is unfortunately not possible due to the waiting list
- Catholic schools are not eager to take you because you are not catholic. Some still have the policy, and some did follow the law but have multiple other factors in the admission policy.

- As mentioned the protestant schools will not take you as well.



Where can you go? Maybe after being bounced around you finally find a place at the other side of town. When it is April, there is a very high chance you actually need to wait till the next semester before you can join. I just do not understand why it is not common sense to have a place at school.

tabby aspreme

visg wrote: »

You are changing my words:)


I say that it shouldn't be allowed as well, but focusing on it will not really help the situation since they are just a small minority. I just found it weird that in every 3 posts or so it is mentioned.



As I said:
no school should have any admission policy. First come first server for every school that is out there and no hassle in providing education for your kids:)

If it was first come first served, how would you manage the parents who enroll there children at birth into several local schools and decide a week before the child starts school, which school the child will go too.

salmocab

visg wrote: »

And what would be your view on:


Some expat works for a US company and just moved to a commuting town of Dublin. I know that some might advise to go back to your own country:) but lets be honest, a large part of the economy are foreign firms that attract expats.



- educate together is unfortunately not possible due to the waiting list
- Catholic schools are not eager to take you because you are not catholic. Some still have the policy, and some did follow the law but have multiple other factors in the admission policy.

- As mentioned the protestant schools will not take you as well.



Where can you go? Maybe after being bounced around you finally find a place at the other side of town. When it is April, there is a very high chance you actually need to wait till the next semester before you can join. I just do not understand why it is not common sense to have a place at school.

I don’t understand your point, firstly catholic schools if they have a place will certainly take you as will Protestant schools (we are trying a Protestant one locally that definitely has Catholics attending). Should schools keep places for the American business man scenario just in case? If a school is full it’s full. Maybe I’m missing what your trying to say though.

visg

tabby aspreme wrote: »

If it was first come first served, how would you manage the parents who enroll there children at birth into several local schools and decide a week before the child starts school, which school the child will go too.

You could ask the question why parents would consider to do this in the first place:)

visg

salmocab wrote: »

I don’t understand your point, firstly catholic schools if they have a place will certainly take you as will Protestant schools (we are trying a Protestant one locally that definitely has Catholics attending). Should schools keep places for the American business man scenario just in case? If a school is full it’s full. Maybe I’m missing what your trying to say though.

I would say its just very tight and preferences are still given based on religion.



There should not be a lack of places in school.

Lackadaisical

I know of two french couples working for IT companies that just returned to France because of the schools issues.

They were living in central Dublin and most of the schools in the area were very traditional and many were single gender only.

They weren't happy with it as an environment for their kids and just returned to France.

It's actually a problem that must have some degree of impact on recruitment here.

visg

Lackadaisical wrote: »

I know of two french couples working for IT companies that just returned to France because of the schools issues.

They were living in central Dublin and most of the schools in the area were very traditional and many were single gender only.

It's actually a problem that must have some degree of impact on recruitment here.

Exactly! It is a common story for me.



And I think it his fairly easy to solve. It costs no money to change admission policies.



In some EU countries it is the law: When a school refuses you, the school needs to make sure that you get another school, otherwise they are not allowed by law to refuse you.

salmocab

visg wrote: »

Exactly! It is a common story for me.



And I think it his fairly easy to solve. It costs no money to change admission policies.



In some EU countries it is the law: When a school refuses you, the school needs to make sure that you get another school, otherwise they are not allowed by law to refuse you.

So if a school has room for 30 kids in junior infants and 180 apply the school needs to find space elsewhere for 150 kids?
I do think the current system isn’t great but I think schools need to have admission policy’s.

visg

salmocab wrote: »

So if a school has room for 30 kids in junior infants and 180 apply the school needs to find space elsewhere for 150 kids?
I do think the current system isn’t great but I think schools need to have admission policy’s.

exactly


and when that would be the case, there is actually a bigger problem. You should be questioning why 180 apply for only 30 places.



Having all this private interests over our young children is not such a good thing.

visg

I found this facts. I am not allowed to posts links but you can google:

Almost uniquely in Europe, Ireland has a monopolistic denominational tradition in schools
96% of primary schools being denominational, with 90% Catholic and 6% Protestant (2 Islamic schools/1 Jewish)
4% of schools ‘multi-denominational’ (80+ Educate Together/12 Community N.S. ETB)

I think when you are not really welcome on 96% of the schools, it can be challenging.


Good to have some numbers.