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Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

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    #32
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    I assume they’ll find a new operator, who might even purchase the fleet or take over the Aer Lingus relative aspects of what remained of Stobart.

    Would there be any sense in Aer Lingus just operating a regional division itself again?

    You could see some of the regional routes eg Cork Manchester (whenever Cork opens again…) being operated by A320s though. Same with Dublin to several bigger English and Scottish cities.

    A few of those UK routes are busy enough to be mainline.


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    #33
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    FuzzyThinking wrote: »
    I assume they’ll find a new operator, who might even purchase the fleet or take over the Aer Lingus relative aspects of what remained of Stobart.

    Would there be any sense in Aer Lingus just operating a regional division itself again?

    You could see some of the regional routes eg Cork Manchester (whenever Cork opens again…) being operated by A320s though. Same with Dublin to several bigger English and Scottish cities.

    A few of those UK routes are busy enough to be mainline.

    Are Emerald Airlines not due to take over the AL Regional routes from 2023....that might happen earlier now?


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    #34
    kevinandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    Jack1985 wrote: »
    Aer Lingus hopes to announce an alternative operator by tomorrow. Company was aware the of potential for collapse in STK for some time.

    Well that would be a positive development, at least for Aer Lingus in the medium term.


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    #35
    omega man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,712 ✭✭✭omega man


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Are Emerald Airlines not due to take over the AL Regional routes from 2023....that might happen earlier now?

    Yes, January 2023.


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    #36
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Tenger wrote: »
    I didn't think the UK flights were even operating. Thought it was only 2-3 PSO departures from Dublin each day.

    Tenger I’m getting rather worried about your memory!! We had this conversation below back in March and you thanked my post. ;-)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116671033&postcount=2736


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    #37
    crushproof
    Registered Users Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭crushproof


    Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route


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    #38
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,010 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    crushproof wrote: »
    Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

    I've booked Ryanair to Edinburgh for next month and there were at least three flights a day


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    #39
    kevinandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    crushproof wrote: »
    Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

    It was, albeit at much lower frequencies, it operated on the 11th, 10th and 7th as EI3250 in the mornings and on the 6th as EI3256 in the afternoon.


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    #40
    fawlty682
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭fawlty682


    Ryanair not flying from Derry also. Loganair twice the price will hit the north west too.


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    #41
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    crushproof wrote: »
    Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

    As above it was not operating every day but it has been operating irregularly since last year.


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    #42
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Can't see the full article but the headline hits the nail on the head:

    increasing-shock-at-the-governments-casual-approach-to-death-of-aviation-industry

    Aerlingus cancelling flights out of Ireland, reducing capacity, Ryanair doing the same... Will definitely be the least connected EU country out of the 27 by the end of the Summer.


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    #43
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    I think there’s a remarkably Laissez-faire assumption that the demand is there and the routes will just reopen. It took years and years to build them up, particularly some of the more marginal ones.

    I’m rather concerned we could be looking at a long struggle to get back to having strong connectivity, which is one of the major selling points of being based in Ireland.

    The Cork Airport idea that you can just close entirely for several months, right as the sector is recovering is very concerning too. While it’s a lull in demand, it’s right as you need to be getting things flowing again.

    There seems to be little or no strategy to what we are doing.


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    #44
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    FuzzyThinking wrote: »
    There seems to be little or no strategy to what we are doing.

    No strategy just open hostility from Tony Holohan since the start of this... A Green Party Transport Minister.. the perfect storm to make Ireland an expensive and difficult outcrop of an Island to get to..


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    #45
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    To be fair to the greens they have actually made fairly concerned statements about Stobart this morning in terms of regional connectivity.

    We have shown scant concern though given the significant nature of aviation here. I think it’s largely been driven by making foreign travel almost sinful at a public policy level.

    There seems to have been a pile on into following some half-baked version of what Australia and NZ did, rather than working towards maintaining some kind of safe connectivity to Europe in particular.

    At the start of the crisis we didn’t do remotely enough to make aviation safe. Things like a proper system of enforced testing at airports could have kept things safer and moving. Instead we did nothing (as did the U.K.) and then a crisis hit and then we kneejerked into a total lockdown of travel. So instead of maybe a modicum of common sense and sane measures we’ve gone from one extreme to the other and the outcome is likely to be rather damaging to connectivity.

    As for DAA at Cork, the mind boggles.


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    #46
    newcavanman
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭newcavanman


    No harm, but when did the Greens ever come up with any good ideas on the transport front , apart from reducing the tax on Diesels? and lets face it, they have been trying to undo that ever since


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    #47
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    The diesel scandal was more of a European automotive industry drive to sell diesel, as they had no viable hybrid or other high tech platforms in the early 2000s. So they lobbied like hell and even doctored the emissions results.

    The prevailing public policy right across Europe lead to particulate pumping diesels becoming dominant and causing major local air pollution issues.

    It just shows the importance of understanding what you’re measuring when it comes to anything in science or economics, as you can very quickly end up with very unintended outcomes.

    In this case, I think you’re looking very much at Ireland going into lockstep thinking on travel and trying to compare itself, very inappropriately, with New Zealand.


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jack1985 wrote: »
    Aer Lingus hopes to announce an alternative operator by tomorrow. Company was aware the of potential for collapse in STK for some time.

    Judging by their reaction I would wonder. They were told last night yet only added a note on their website around 11am this morning, I have a KIR flight booked next Friday and zero communication from them still. Their Twitter feed is a mess full of stranded passengers who can’t get through to agents and website problems


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    #49
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    It was remarkably sudden. I doubt the company’s operations side saw this coming somehow.


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    #50
    mr.anonymous
    Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭mr.anonymous


    The sale to Ettyl and funding for it were in the news and reported as in trouble at least a week ago if not the end of May.

    https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/stobart-buyer-refers-paperworkissue-to-police-40513388.html

    Now that the money isn't there, Stobarts are losing the contract, and the industry is on its knees, they ceased trading.

    Emerald is still in the start-up phase, barely have aircraft acquired, no AOC either.

    An extra 480 job losses in Irish aviation today.


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    #51
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    Would there be any reason why Aer Lingus wouldn't just re-establish their own regional division and take some of the Stobart fleet?

    I can't really see why they couldn't do a City Hopper / HOP! type operation themselves.

    It's probably feeding significant numbers of UK passengers into DUB for transatlantic.

    I know plenty of people from various parts of the UK who find it easier to fly to the US via DUB than LHR due to connectivity with those routes and also Ryanair being so strong.


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    #52
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    BA city flyer covering Belfast routes from tomorrow and 2 more next week apparentky


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    #53
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    Mention of Aer Lingus itself covering some other routes too.

    I assume that could be with A320s?


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    #54
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It'll be with 320s - they haven't got anything else to spin up.

    If the old Commuter grades/rates aren't on the existing contracts for pilots and crew, it would be either complicated and not quick (to reinstate same) or exceptionally expensive (to pay mainline) to bring back a Commuter operation - even if there were perfectly suitable aircraft ready to go and crew to hire. Does anyone know the current status there?


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    #55
    ClosedAccountFuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    Did Stobart own or lease those aircraft?


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    #56
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    The only thing I’m curious about is according to airfleets -GEV is operated by EI not STK.

    All the 72’s are operated by STK.


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    #57
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    California Dreamer wrote: »
    The only thing I’m curious about is according to airfleets -GEV is operated by EI not STK.

    All the 72’s are operated by STK.

    GEV is owned by NAC lessor, on Stobart’s AOC.


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    #58
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    FuzzyThinking wrote: »
    Did Stobart own or lease those aircraft?

    If memory serves the ATR72s are leased with assistance from EI.
    Back in 2014 RE couldn’t cover it themselves so EI stepped in.
    Can’t exactly recall if it was EI financing the lease or a joint company leasing them to RE/STK.

    L1011 wrote: »
    If the old Commuter grades/rates aren't on the existing contracts for pilots and crew, it would be either complicated and not quick (to reinstate same) or exceptionally expensive (to pay mainline) to bring back a Commuter operation - even if there were perfectly suitable aircraft ready to go and crew to hire. Does anyone know the current status there?

    EI Commuter was the same pay scales for pilots/crew. Hence why setting up a franchise operation was the logical step.

    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Tenger I’m getting rather worried about your memory!! We had this conversation below back in March and you thanked my post. ;-)
    �� There should be a rule about highlighting the inadequacy of Mods.
    Old and crap is the new trend!!


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    #59
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    How did the PSO contract work? Do government subsidises the cost even if there’s only 5 passengers on a winter Tuesday?

    I’ve only flown the Kerry route once, in summer time. Fairly full flights. How bad does the capacity get?


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    #60
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    GEV is owned by NAC lessor, on Stobart’s AOC.

    Then why is listed on EI airfleets?


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tenger wrote: »
    If memory serves the ATR72s are leased with assistance from EI.
    Back in 2014 RE couldn’t cover it themselves so EI stepped in.
    Can’t exactly recall if it was EI financing the lease or a joint company leasing them to RE/STK.



    A lot happened since then, EI were bought out of the arrangement you mention so no longer on the hook for any associated aircraft liabilities.

    It got complicated with the purchase and collapse of Flybe which esken (stobart airs parent company and formerly known as stobart group) had a share in. Their asset company (propius) leases in the planes to stobart air (and previously Flybe), they have several jets in addition to the ATRs. Esken is on the hook for not far off €100m of lease guarantees held by propius, it is one of the reasons they haven’t wound companies up earlier

    Esken is on the stock exchange and also owns railway infrastructure, small share in stobart transport and a few airports including Southend.

    The frequent changes of company structures is hard to follow and sounds like a law firms dream, you may remember last year the media broke the story that Esken had registered the majority of stobart airs shares in the name of a trust for employees to get around some eu rules but employees knew nothing of this

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/stobart-air-workers-say-they-have-never-seen-details-of-share-ownership-scheme-1.4240378


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