Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Pete_Cavan · 14-05-2019 9:45am

gjim wrote: »

If it is ever built, surely there would have to be a stop somewhere around Stephen's Green? I can't remember whether the current DU/MN plan had the DU below or above MN? You'd hope that they'd bury a station-box for DU while building the ML station in Stephen's Green but with the penny pinching involved in getting a truncated ML accepted, it's probably unlikely.

Whenever DU gets redesigned, an interchange at Tara Street would be infinitely better than SSG. Regardless of where it ends up, putting in a station box at SSG could be a tremendous waste of money and would just be used as a stick to beat Metrolink. We already have people complaining about money wasted on a station at the Mater when only a wall was built.

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 10:27am

Yes, once they get Metrolink out of the way, I can imagine them going back to square one on Dart Underground and looking at all the interchange options. An interchange at Tara St would be the obvious choice, but I think that an interchange at SSG and at Pearse Station would still work just as well, and might be easier to design and build. Having an interchange at Tara St, Pearse St and SSG would create an interchange triangle of stations, something I've noticed on networks across the globe. Once the frequency is good enough, then no one will care about possibly having to interchange twice in quick succession.

Pete_Cavan · 14-05-2019 10:46am

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, once they get Metrolink out of the way, I can imagine them going back to square one on Dart Underground and looking at all the interchange options. An interchange at Tara St would be the obvious choice, but I think that an interchange at SSG and at Pearse Station would still work just as well, and might be easier to design and build. Having an interchange at Tara St, Pearse St and SSG would create an interchange triangle of stations, something I've noticed on networks across the globe. Once the frequency is good enough, then no one will care about possibly having to interchange twice in quick succession.

Well DU going via Tara and tunnel ending at Heuston would reduce the tunnel to 4.5km as opposed to 7+ in the original proposal. Also, a single station at Tara saves another wedge as opposed to two (Pearse and SSG) making the whole thing a bit more likely. That is off topic though, the point is that trying to preempt DU is not something that Metrolink should try to do and can do more harm than good (as with the Mater diaphragm wall).

riddlinrussell · 14-05-2019 10:51am

murphaph wrote: »

Unfortunately if DU is ever built and is not or cannot be modified to interconnect with Metrolink near St. Stephen's Green then Metrolink will interchange with the same DART line (Maynooth-Bray) twice and not at all with the other one (Balbriggan-Hazelhatch). That would be a tremendous pity. It's a real shame we can't just build the proper solutions for the greater good and accept that some small number of people will indeed be disadvantaged by those solutions.

Cross-Guns/Glasnevin will surely be an interchange between Metro and BOTH DART lines? At least until DU gets resurrected... then Tara would probably make most sense.

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 11:00am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well DU going via Tara and tunnel ending at Heuston would reduce the tunnel to 4.5km as opposed to 7+ in the original proposal. Also, a single station at Tara saves another wedge as opposed to two (Pearse and SSG) making the whole thing a bit more likely. That is off topic though, the point is that trying to preempt DU is not something that Metrolink should try to do and can do more harm than good (as with the Mater diaphragm wall).

I don't think that it's going to preempt DU, I think that if we're spending billions on a project, then we have to get the most bang for our buck, and it's got to stand on it's own. No idea how long it'll take DU to get through our political process, and no idea what the economy will be like after Metrolink. There's just no way we should build project without an interchange station in the city centre.

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 11:04am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Cross-Guns/Glasnevin will surely be an interchange between Metro and BOTH DART lines? At least until DU gets resurrected... then Tara would probably make most sense.

It will, but I'm not sure how many Darts will actually head through the PPT. I can see most finishing at Heuston, to be honest.

gjim · 14-05-2019 11:30am

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, once they get Metrolink out of the way, I can imagine them going back to square one on Dart Underground and looking at all the interchange options. An interchange at Tara St would be the obvious choice, but I think that an interchange at SSG and at Pearse Station would still work just as well, and might be easier to design and build. Having an interchange at Tara St, Pearse St and SSG would create an interchange triangle of stations, something I've noticed on networks across the globe. Once the frequency is good enough, then no one will care about possibly having to interchange twice in quick succession.

I also prefer a triangle of interchanges - as you say, it's a successful model in networks elsewhere. I think it provides greater utility. The Tara Street option is great if you're going directly to or from Tara Street itself, other journeys are not improved. The alternative (interchanges at SSG and Pearse) improves coverage area as well connectivity for people going to/from either of the two. Also I've a feeling that operationally it provides better redundancy as well as being easier to build/engineer.

Btw I don't think Cross Guns is devalued by the future DU - as well as providing rail access to that part of the city, it will allow non-DARTs (terminating in a new/upgraded Docklands surface station) to interchange with DART or ML. And it will still make sense for some ML and DART users to switch at Glasnevin rather than Tara.

Pete_Cavan · 14-05-2019 11:45am

CatInABox wrote: »

I don't think that it's going to preempt DU, I think that if we're spending billions on a project, then we have to get the most bang for our buck, and it's got to stand on it's own. No idea how long it'll take DU to get through our political process, and no idea what the economy will be like after Metrolink. There's just no way we should build project without an interchange station in the city centre.

Building a station box where the rail line might not even pass is not getting bang for our buck. Interchanges are being built as part of Metrolink, the interchanges are with the existing network.

Pixel Eater · 14-05-2019 11:50am

If they strategically built the DU station horizontally between the Metro and Luas stops at St. Stephen's Green then we'd have a great connecting station; Luas, Dart and Metro would all be linked by tunnels.

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 11:54am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Building a station box where the rail line might not even pass is not getting bang for our buck. Interchanges are being built as part of Metrolink, the interchanges are with the existing network.

I'm sorry, what's this about?

Pete_Cavan · 14-05-2019 2:23pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm sorry, what's this about?

Building a station box for DU at SSG now as part of Metrolink, despite DU not even having a route at present. That should be obvious from reading the posts quoted!

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 3:25pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Building a station box for DU at SSG now as part of Metrolink, despite DU not even having a route at present. That should be obvious from reading the posts quoted!

It might have been obvious, but I still missed it.

I pretty much misread three different posts in a row.

They're not going to put a station box in for Dart Underground during Metrolink, regardless of it's positives or negatives.

Metrolink has been a great demonstration for removing complexity from a project. In fact, the only two stations that have any real level of complexity are Glasnevin and Tara St, the two interchange stations. Adding another station box at SSG, deeper than anything else on the Metrolink project, would be adding considerable risk/complexity to that station, and therefore it won't happen.

Pete_Cavan · 14-05-2019 9:29pm

CatInABox wrote: »

They're not going to put a station box in for Dart Underground during Metrolink, regardless of it's positives or negatives.

I agree, that's what I was saying.

Marcusm · 14-05-2019 9:50pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, once they get Metrolink out of the way, I can imagine them going back to square one on Dart Underground and looking at all the interchange options. An interchange at Tara St would be the obvious choice, but I think that an interchange at SSG and at Pearse Station would still work just as well, and might be easier to design and build. Having an interchange at Tara St, Pearse St and SSG would create an interchange triangle of stations, something I've noticed on networks across the globe. Once the frequency is good enough, then no one will care about possibly having to interchange twice in quick succession.

This I can guarantee you is one of the most frustrating experiences. Multiple changes in quick succession significantly increases journey times.

Qrt · 14-05-2019 10:10pm

Marcusm wrote: »

This I can guarantee you is one of the most frustrating experiences. Multiple changes in quick succession significantly increases journey times.

I quite enjoy the wander around London’s tube stations tbh

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 10:42pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I agree, that's what I was saying.

I've had one of those days where nothing I read goes in, and nothing I say is clear, sorry.

Totally agree with you, I was more making the point to everyone else.

I should really step away from the keyboard at this stage.

CatInABox · 14-05-2019 10:50pm

Marcusm wrote: »

This I can guarantee you is one of the most frustrating experiences. Multiple changes in quick succession significantly increases journey times.

I've travelled around London for years on the network, and been around loads of other commuters doing the same thing. The only time I heard people complain about it was when the frequency was disrupted. Less than five minutes, that's totally fine, more than five minutes? Then you've got problems.

Anyway, it's all kinda academic, I can't imagine many journeys that would require more than one change. Even if all our dream lines are completed, Metrolink and Dart Expansion and Underground, then we'll still only have a small network.

MJohnston · 14-05-2019 11:33pm

Unhinged stuff here:

https://twitter.com/RMetrolink/status/1128409398383083524

marno21 · 14-05-2019 11:41pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Unhinged stuff here:

https://twitter.com/RMetrolink/status/1128409398383083524

This is no longer about concerns. This is a crusade.

Qrt · 15-05-2019 1:48am

marno21 wrote: »

This is no longer about concerns. This is a crusade.

They’ll want it stopped at Tara Street next to “protect our park” (the facts won’t phase them)

prunudo · 15-05-2019 7:47am

Nothing surprises me anymore where comes to "concerned residents" trying to twart public transport improvements.

Rulmeq · 15-05-2019 8:58am

Qrt wrote: »

They’ll want it stopped at Tara Street next to “protect our park” (the facts won’t phase them)

Why stop there, there's a swimming pool and a block of apartments to save there, and Glasnevin's a bit too close to the cemmetary, and well who want's to go to Ballymun, we should just stop it at the airport (actually that might cause some disruption to their flights, so we should definitly not go past Swords with it)

gjim · 15-05-2019 9:16am

Marcusm wrote: »

This I can guarantee you is one of the most frustrating experiences. Multiple changes in quick succession significantly increases journey times.

Having a triangle of interchanges doesn't add more changes for passengers. What trip could require 2 changes in Tara/SSG/Pearse over a single change in Tara?

Btw, I agree that there's no way a station box for DU will be included anywhere during ML construction whether at Tara or SSG. I was trying to say that if rail PT in Dublin were developed strategically with a commitment to a long term integrated plan, then adding a DU station box would be done while you've already dug a massive hole and blocked streets and are moving heavy machinery. Long-term it would save enormous cost, disruption and avoid potential opposition over mining one out in the same area 5 or 10 years later costing 100m or more extra. Not doing it now just loads costs onto the eventual DU project.

MetroLinker · 15-05-2019 2:13pm

They have rejected various planning applications already based on DU going to Pearse:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dart-underground-dublin-office-building-rejected-4057835-Jun2018/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924

I doubt they would move the station to Tara Street to connect it. As noted above, anybody wanting to change Dart-DU would go to Pearse, DU-Metrolink would go to SSG and Dart-Metrolink to Tara.

There is a risk that the interchanges will result in a large number of additional passengers number impacting on routes travelling through the city centre. Example, imagine a busy DART train coming from Howth and stopping in Tara Street to pick up Metrolink passengers. If these passengers only need to stay on the dart route for 2/3 stops and then leave, the train capacity requirement would be very uneven across the route.

From a quick look, DART's moving North to South have the largest quantity leaving the train at Pearse Station, who will all be staying on the train in Tara Street.

If Tara Street Metro station was moved closer to Pearse Street with a direct pedestrian exit on to the street, it may help matters by encouraging people to walk from Metrolink to anywhere close to Pearse Station or Grand Canal Dock instead of making the transition to the DART for 1-2 stops. In addition, if passengers could leave Tara Street DART and exit on to Pearse Street, they may create additional capacity on the service for Metrolink customers wishing to board.

Rulmeq · 15-05-2019 2:40pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

If Tara Street Metro station was moved closer to Pearse Street with a direct pedestrian exit on to the street, it may help matters by encouraging people to walk from Metrolink to anywhere close to Pearse Station or Grand Canal Dock instead of making the transition to the DART for 1-2 stops. In addition, if passengers could leave Tara Street DART and exit on to Pearse Street, they may create additional capacity on the service for Metrolink customers wishing to board.

Encourage people not to use PT by making it difficult to use, are you sure you don't work for FG already?

MetroLinker · 15-05-2019 3:37pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

Encourage people not to use PT by making it difficult to use, are you sure you don't work for FG already?

It's like in London when people will get a tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square because they don't realise how close they are - it's both a waste of time for the user and adds congestion to the network.

If you consider the following flow to go from Dublin Airport to Pearse Station - Metrolink from airport to Tara Street, walk from Metrolink level to street level, walk from street level to DART platform, train wait time, length of train ride, walk from DART platform to street level.

The alternative is Metrolink from airport to Tara Street, walk from Metrolink level to street level, walk to Pearse Station. My calculations indicate that this is quicker for Pearse Station and similar time to get to Grand Canal Dock.

marno21 · 15-05-2019 4:44pm

College Gate seems to be the last remaining speedbump for this project

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/move-your-station-to-save-our-homes-metrolink-told-r0sdb6qsj

cgcsb · 15-05-2019 4:51pm

marno21 wrote: »

College Gate seems to be the last remaining speedbump for this project

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/move-your-station-to-save-our-homes-metrolink-told-r0sdb6qsj

I dont see how this can be, the owners are getting above market value and the renters are getting a year rent free elsewhere. They've basically won one of the mid range prizes on the lotto.

CatInABox · 15-05-2019 5:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I dont see how this can be, the owners are getting above market value and the renters are getting a year rent free elsewhere. They've basically won one of the mid range prizes on the lotto.

Some people get attached to their houses. Honestly though, I can't see these guys getting much traction, as you say, people who are renting there won't care, and some of the people who own there will be rubbing their hands with glee at the thoughts of an above market price. Even the last protest they organised didn't get all the residents out.

prunudo · 15-05-2019 5:24pm

marno21 wrote: »

College Gate seems to be the last remaining speedbump for this project

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/move-your-station-to-save-our-homes-metrolink-told-r0sdb6qsj

That would correlate with what was proposed a couple of posts up, moving Tara st station closer to Pearse.

Rulmeq · 15-05-2019 5:54pm

jvan wrote: »

That would correlate with what was proposed a couple of posts up, moving Tara st station closer to Pearse.

I beleive metrolinker is a tenant in the collagegate building (not sure if they are involved in this campaign or not though).

Marcusm · 15-05-2019 6:47pm

Qrt wrote: »

I quite enjoy the wander around London’s tube stations tbh

I suspect that is because it is novel or occasional. On regular trips, interchanges in close succession are very frustrating as they lead to missed connections, additional time queueing, further interaction with other pieces of self loading cargo etc.

Marcusm · 15-05-2019 6:49pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I've travelled around London for years on the network, and been around loads of other commuters doing the same thing. The only time I heard people complain about it was when the frequency was disrupted. Less than five minutes, that's totally fine, more than five minutes? Then you've got problems.

Anyway, it's all kinda academic, I can't imagine many journeys that would require more than one change. Even if all our dream lines are completed, Metrolink and Dart Expansion and Underground, then we'll still only have a small network.

I was particularly speaking about multiple changes in quick succession, eg changing tubes then changing again after a single stop. I too spent 30 years in London!

Alvin Holler · 15-05-2019 9:19pm

I noticed today that they're doing ground investigation works on the Phibsborough side of canal at the proposed Glasnevin stop.

MJohnston · 15-05-2019 10:44pm

Alvin Holler wrote: »

I noticed today that they're doing ground investigation works on the Phibsborough side of canal at the proposed Glasnevin stop.

Are they definitely? Because I used to walk past there every day and they'd be frequently doing maintenance to the sewers and canal gratings under the bridge etc.

Alvin Holler · 16-05-2019 6:55am

MJohnston wrote: »

Are they definitely? Because I used to walk past there every day and they'd be frequently doing maintenance to the sewers and canal gratings under the bridge etc.

Yes, they've a sign up stating it's part of the Metrolink project

Pixel Eater · 16-05-2019 11:28am

CatInABox wrote: »

Some people get attached to their houses. Honestly though, I can't see these guys getting much traction, as you say, people who are renting there won't care, and some of the people who own there will be rubbing their hands with glee at the thoughts of an above market price. Even the last protest they organised didn't get all the residents out.

Chatting to one of the organisers at a consultations; said the vast majority of the residents have accepted the deal, it's literally only a handful of people who are still opposed to it.

cgcsb · 16-05-2019 11:55am

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Chatting to one of the organisers at a consultations; said the vast majority of the residents have accepted the deal, it's literally only a handful of people who are still opposed to it.

They need to head down to Spar and get a lotto ticket, these windfalls come in threes they say.

MetroLinker · 16-05-2019 3:12pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Chatting to one of the organisers at a consultations; said the vast majority of the residents have accepted the deal, it's literally only a handful of people who are still opposed to it.

There is no deal at the moment so nobody could have accepted it!

There is only the paragraph in the Preferred Route Report and there has been zero engagement with tenants to date about it.

bk · 16-05-2019 4:50pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

There is no deal at the moment so nobody could have accepted it!

There is only the paragraph in the Preferred Route Report and there has been zero engagement with tenants to date about it.

Is it possible they have been in contact with owners, but not tenants, since tenants don't really have any legal rights in this situation and any offer they receive would be a good will one?

Owners maybe quiet happy.

MetroLinker · 16-05-2019 5:04pm

bk wrote: »

Is it possible they have been in contact with owners, but not tenants, since tenants don't really have any legal rights in this situation and any offer they receive would be a good will one?

No contact with owners either. As far as I know, tenants do have legal rights in these situations - unless they are there a month or less.

bk · 16-05-2019 5:12pm

MetroLinker wrote: »

No contact with owners either. As far as I know, tenants do have legal rights in these situations - unless they are there a month or less.

Wouldn't that basically fall under the same rule that says a landlord can ask you to leave, if they are selling?

Even very long term tenants can be asked to leave under that circumstance. If the owners agree to sell to the NTA, then that would be that.

CatInABox · 16-05-2019 6:04pm

The NTA have years to sort this out, and probably won't progress this until the business case has been completed and published, possibly not even until the government has agreed to go ahead with everything.

Unfortunately for those owners and tenants that are unhappy, there's very little that they can do other than apply political pressure, and even there I can't imagine many politicians throwing their support behind it. The CPO process is legally watertight, so long as the NTA can show that there's a public need to buy the building, then it'll sail through. Demonstrating that need will be childs play as well, they can point to the reduction in congestion, the air quality, future transport studies. At this stage, the NTA are swimming in reasons to CPO the building.

Pete_Cavan · 17-05-2019 9:10am

Construction isn't due to start until 2023. In that time, there is a good chance that most tenants will have moved on for various reasons. I'd imagine the landlords are told to get onto the NTA wherever a tenancy ends and that they will be well compensated for loss of future earnings (potential tenants would be reluctant to move into a condemned building anyway). The place will probably be half empty in a couple of years and long vacated by the time demolition rolls round.

CrabRevolution · 18-05-2019 1:18pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Construction isn't due to start until 2023. In that time, there is a good chance that most tenants will have moved on for various reasons. I'd imagine the landlords are told to get onto the NTA wherever a tenancy ends and that they will be well compensated for loss of future earnings (potential tenants would be reluctant to move into a condemned building anyway). The place will probably be half empty in a couple of years and long vacated by the time demolition rolls round.

I'd think it's the other way around for some people. It's not a like for like scenario, but I've seen the number of caravans on a halting site skyrocket when word gets around of an imminent CPO/compensation/rehousing...

1huge1 · 19-05-2019 11:41am

I thought construction was due to start in 2021?

D.L.R. · 19-05-2019 3:46pm

1huge1 wrote: »

I thought construction was due to start in 2021?

It was due to start in 2009.

marno21 · 21-05-2019 1:16am

Some disquiet around the Metro station at the Mater now

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/locals-urge-transport-chiefs-reconsider-16302898

Qrt · 21-05-2019 1:50am

marno21 wrote: »

Some disquiet around the Metro station at the Mater now

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/locals-urge-transport-chiefs-reconsider-16302898

Tbh you can sympathise. But knowing the location, it’ll just be brushed aside.

prunudo · 21-05-2019 6:51am

Is the Mater station box actually a viable option or is it an urban myth. Also the NTA say the park will be returned to use after the construction is completed so bar the 2-3yr inconvenience its not the end of the world. As I said before due to years of bad planning and no foresight there will unfortunately have to be collateral damage along the way if we want to have a metro system.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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