Advice for Carrauntoohil

17-10-2015 10:48am

pavb2 wrote: »

What other walks are there in Killarney that might be less risky this time of year?

Mangerton, as fits mentioned. Torc and the Old Road are particularly well marked and laid out, with sleepers etc. Purple Mountain at the Gap of Dunloe is lovely too, but lots of heather on the Tomies side make it a tiring walk. Great views though. Lots of walks in the woods around Muckross Lake and Ross Island.

Halloween Jack · 18-10-2015 12:27pm

fits wrote: »

I think you need to go for a walk, or just put down the computer for a while.

I know some people who would be experienced hikers who spent a night up on Carrauntoohil. Just got lost in the mist I think and then it got dark. They phoned mountain rescue and told them they were fine and would come down in the morning. They had the right gear to stay warm enough but I dont think it was a pleasant experience all the same and can happen really easily.

Indeed, i worked with a guy who's brother fell to his death off carrauntoohil. The chap had climbed in the Alps, Andes, himalaya.... It can happen to anyone...

SomeFool · 19-10-2015 9:42pm

pavb2 wrote: »

What other walks are there in Killarney that might be less risky this time of year?

Torc, well defined path, great views. Would also second the Old Kenmare Road and Mangerton. Carrauntoohil is no more difficult really but the walk through Hags glen makes it a long day which leads to it being underestimated and tiredness is a dangerous state. You can park at the bottom of Torc and Mangerton so no walk in.

didds · 22-10-2015 11:10am

Go with a group or with someone who knows how to navigate using a map and compass. Yes, you might go down, have a great incident free walk and get away with it, but chances are it'll be cloudy with poor visibility. Why should someone out enjoying a walk have to babysit you back down off the mountain because you can't be bothered to learn or to go safely? Piaras Kelly of Kerry climbing, John Healy, Con Moriarty, Nathan Kingerley, Tony Nation etc etc all offer a guided service down there to safely experience the beauty of the hills.
Despite what others have said, there have been fatalities this and last year in the Irish hills. Wouldn't it be worth a few quid to have your first experience if the place be a positive one and learn as you enjoy it? If you do go, I hope the day is clear for you as there's no-where quite like it. If you are around Dublin, drop me a pm and I'll point out the route and the objective dangers. Make sure you are fit. It's not the rolling Wicklow hills. Bring plenty of water, snacks, first aid and appropriate clothing and footwear. It's cold up there this time of year with a biting wind chill.

Poncke · 22-10-2015 9:07pm

Wow, this thread got a life of its own. Some debate. Hopefully it is useful to some readers. I have to agree, there's hidden dangers on the Irish hills, and it could turn sour very quickly. I have experienced this myself and I can say the advice here to be prepared and make sure you know what you are doing is very valid.

One of my first big hikes was the Lug and it didnt go well. We made it out but just on pure luck. We walked up Camara hill from Fentons pub and then up to Lug. It was a clear day. Some people were coming down warning us for the low clouds and that we might get lost. We came up to the wet part with the wide river bedding, and thats where we wanted to go back. But a girl came up and she knew the Lug, so we continued with her. We ended up on the summit and then she had to go back. We walked back 5 minutes later and got lost. We followed the river bed down, but it wasnt the same trail we went up. We kept walking and at some point got worried not knowing where we would end up. But then out of nowhere a large group of hikers with a guide and GPS, so we latched on and walked down with them. The fog was so thick I ended up walking 1 meter from the cliffs before we noticed the end. Right there and then I realised that people were not exaggerating when they warned me, how people could get caught off guard and fall off the cliffs. All's well ends well, as turned out, we ended up in Glenmalure, 16km from our starting point, when the plan was to do a return walk. Seriously, if we hadnt met those guys with GPS, it would have been a very serious situation. I was soaking wet and didnt have the proper gear. My jeans were weighing at least 10 kilo from the water they soaked up. We were lucky that day and it was a massive hike, and it was great in hindsight, but we realised we were really unprepared.

So please take all advice here. I am well prepared these days when going on a hike. Once I ended up on Luggala aka Fancy Mountain in the fog once again on what seemed a clear day, but then we had a map and compass and proper clothing so it was a completely different experience and we had no issues whatsoever finding our way.

22-10-2015 9:30pm

Certainly would get a map as BarryD said. On my first trip up Carrauntoohil we had nothing and couldn't see a thing in driving rain, ended up standing at the top of what I later found out was Central Gully and we figured it must be the Devil's Ladder so went down...not advisable to descend Curved Gully in any weather but we didn't have a clue! Ended up like kids coming down stairs on our arses for 90 minutes in zero visibility, with hindsight we could have been going off the wrong side completely or been cliff bound. Just as well we had walked past the top of Curved Gully! So bought a map afterwards anyway...

fits · 22-10-2015 9:32pm

My muscles completely seized on the way down from Carauntoohil (via heavenly gates) and I was in a bad way for a week after it. I'm not the fittest in the world but not a couch potato either. And Id been doing 15 km hikes just the month before on holidays with no ill effects. It was a wonderful day but that was bad. I also lost my two big toe nails (boots obviously a smidgen small).

Its not as easy as some make out, its a proper hike/climb even if the day is clear and still.

KilOit · 23-10-2015 4:50pm

Wen't up Carrauntoohill in awful weather with low vis and horizontal rain!
took devils ladder route which was fine and then hit cloud at the top of devils ladder but knew to just turn right and keep going up, got up no bother but the issue was coming back down, thought i was going south towards devils ladder.
After 10 minutes or so we didn't recognize any of the rocks that we saw going up and got a bit panicky, starting walking a bit aimlessly and my partner nearly slipped off steep ground! got an awful fright but eventually made it back to devils ladder.
It was a wake up call for both of us so we went and did the MS1 course to be able to navigate in poor weather and just to be able to read a map and plan routes, no more shoddy google maps for navigation :pac:

Glonass · 31-10-2015 1:15am

Useful thread indeed ! Whats the easiest route to Carrauntoohil in early December? Went up there via Devil's Ladder in 2009 ONCE before and nearly got battered from falling stones during peak weekend with lots of groups in August.this time Im hoping to go Solo with 30L Backpack contains a Bivvy Bag, sleeping bag, spare layers, socks,carb rich food and drink, first aid kit, Harvey Super Walker map, compass , 2 head torches , AA Batteries, external battery for ABC Watch, phone etc.

Hoping to do fast hike wearing Trail GTX shoes and trail running minimalist waterproofs.if the weather permits might stay overnight in Bivvy somewhere at much lower altitude...also will be using public transport + walk to the start of the route.in 2009 walked from killarney to cronins yard but this time i have to use public transport to get to the area faster.has devils ladder gone bad in recent years? I have no proper climbing experience more like hill walker type.not into too much scrambling either.
The main reason in doing december is around the time of my birthday as well as coming back from injury im craving for a bit of personal resolutions. Knowledge is power so any positive or negative advice will be appreciated

01-11-2015 11:59am

Glonass wrote: »

Useful thread indeed ! Whats the easiest route to Carrauntoohil in early December?
...
Hoping to do fast hike wearing Trail GTX shoes and trail running minimalist waterproofs.

Easiest route is the Zig Zags.

Think about your shoes. Have run them in trail shoes in winter time, and think trail shoes often overlooked in favour of heavy boots for outings where boots are not needed. But in snow, in the churned up mud on Cnoc na Toinne, your socks will get wet. Which is fine for a 3 or 4 hour run when you have the showers in Cronins Yard ahead. But if hiking or up there overnight, walking around in cold snow, with wet socks, it might get uncomfortable.

Glonass · 02-11-2015 2:51am

First of all Thank You Conor ! Im planning to do Fast paced hike.plan is to use Sealskinz socks plus short gaiter and gtx trail shoe combo.and a couple of spare pair of socks.dont really want to wear heavy duty leader boots eventhough there are super durable so there is a bit of compromise on comfort.if the weather is bad i will head back down asap and head back without staying in Bivvy.but it will be there with me as an emergency shelter. cant underestimate Nature.anyway i found a gpx file of zig zags on activeme.ie wonder how accurate that is.it would be handy to have the waymarked route in my gps watch as backup.also does anyone know the current timetable of Shuttle bus that goes to Cronin's yard from killarney? looks like zigzags route start from somewhere between the lakes just before going up towards Devil's Ladder ? Visibility is my number one worry hope the weather will be great so that i can go up and down safely.

02-11-2015 8:45am

Glonass wrote: »

.anyway i found a gpx file of zig zags on activeme.ie wonder how accurate that is.it would be handy to have the waymarked route in my gps watch as backup.also does anyone know the current timetable of Shuttle bus that goes to Cronin's yard from killarney? looks like zigzags route start from somewhere between the lakes just before going up towards Devil's Ladder ? Visibility is my number one worry hope the weather will be great so that i can go up and down safely.

Don't have a GPS so no idea about activeme, but no, the Zig Zags start well after the lakes and almost in at the foot of the Devils Ladder. The Bone is the route up the Eastern Reeks that starts before the Lakes.

duckysauce · 02-11-2015 2:28pm

Glonass wrote: »

First of all Thank You Conor ! Im planning to do Fast paced hike.plan is to use Sealskinz socks plus short gaiter and gtx trail shoe combo.and a couple of spare pair of socks.dont really want to wear heavy duty leader boots eventhough there are super durable so there is a bit of compromise on comfort.if the weather is bad i will head back down asap and head back without staying in Bivvy.but it will be there with me as an emergency shelter. cant underestimate Nature.anyway i found a gpx file of zig zags on activeme.ie wonder how accurate that is.it would be handy to have the waymarked route in my gps watch as backup.also does anyone know the current timetable of Shuttle bus that goes to Cronin's yard from killarney? looks like zigzags route start from somewhere between the lakes just before going up towards Devil's Ladder ? Visibility is my number one worry hope the weather will be great so that i can go up and down safely.

I did it by the zig-zags a while back , you can download route I did from Mountainviews. http://mountainviews.ie/track/report/1517/

Glonass · 07-11-2015 2:18am

Just downloaded to use as reference.Thank you DuckySauce

Glonass · 29-11-2015 4:47am

Is there bus service between cronins yard and killarney at this time of the year? How much do taxis charge from killarney to cronins yard?

29-11-2015 3:13pm

Glonass wrote: »

Is there bus service between cronins yard and killarney at this time of the year? How much do taxis charge from killarney to cronins yard?

Not sure, if you're on Facebook they have a page and they are on it most days, so I'd say they'd be able to answer that question, I'm sure they get it all the time.

Glonass · 16-12-2015 12:42am

@DuckySauce , used your zigzags route.gpx as a backup 2 weeks ago and it's very accurate.Now I know where the start of the route is.Thanks .Still wonder why people are still using devil's Ladder.for me zigzags is not that longer than devil's ladder and much more scenic and safer than the ladder.people using ladder looked like Marmots popping out to see sunset(fun intended).

icesnowfrost · 21-12-2015 2:41am

Myself and 2 friends climbed it in June with perfect weather clear sky's and almost no mist, just a little at the top. This was our first time climbing it but we're experienced at hiking/hill walking.
from the bottom of the devils ladder to the top of the devils ladder took us aprox 50 min. We were pleased with that time. Got to the summit and took on our main meal and a cup of tea

.
I couldn't help but notice how un equipped people where with either no rucksack or nearly empty( kinda like wen you buy a new rucksack how empty it looks!), they had runners, jeans, very little water if any and not much food. No waterproofs no warm tops. We always pack enough food and water for a 24hr period even if we are only in a day hike, just incase anything happened that we can survive in comfort until rescue (if needed) or until weather permitted a safe descent. Some people might think that's extreme for ireland but you never know what can happen.
On the way down we bypassed the top of the ladder and went down the zig zags.
The whole experience was great but hard going. I'd advise anyone who is attempting the climb to make sure you have basic fitness and bring proper gear. Cronins yard is a great starting point.

Poncke · 29-12-2015 11:49pm

People should pay all damages for their nonsense

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1229/756604-weather-storm-frank/

Who goes mountain walking in this kind of weather?! Irresponsible !

Djoucer · 29-12-2015 11:57pm

Poncke wrote: »

People should pay all damages for their nonsense

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1229/756604-weather-storm-frank/

Who goes mountain walking in this kind of weather?! Irresponsible !

If you start to charge ppl for call outs, people won't call when they need it.

Poncke · 30-12-2015 12:00am

Djoucer wrote: »

If you start to charge ppl for call outs, people won't call when they need it.

That was not really what I meant. Who on earth goes out in this weather to climb Carrauntoohil, or any mountain? Surely common sense and a quick weather check should prevent anyone from doing something this stupid. Sorry.

ianobrien · 30-12-2015 12:04am

Djoucer wrote: »

If you start to charge ppl for call outs, people won't call when they need it.

I know in other countries, if the authorities say that it's too dangerous or declared it closed and you go ahead and need their services, you pay. If they have not said its too dangerous or declared it closed and you do need their services, its free.

This is the system in Spain and it works.

Poncke · 30-12-2015 12:11am

Well exactly. "There is a weather warning issued, what are you doing on that mountain? Sorry, but this call out is on you."

I can fully agree with that.

Djoucer · 30-12-2015 12:19am

ianobrien wrote: »

I know in other countries, if the authorities say that it's too dangerous or declared it closed and you go ahead and need their services, you pay. If they have not said its too dangerous or declared it closed and you do need their services, its free.

This is the system in Spain and it works.

I think there were attempts to close off Sally Gap during snow/ice but wasn't workable.

You do have to consider those who will have to rescue you if the **** hits the fan.

I'm just wary (and weary) of the usual rush to judgment and place blame. Lessons will be learned.

Kerry MR have put up a video of the rescue. Conditions were brutal.

ianobrien · 30-12-2015 12:23am

Djoucer wrote: »

I think there were attempts to close off Sally Gap during snow/ice but wasn't workable.

You do have to consider those who will have to rescue you if the **** hits the fan.

I'm just wary (and weary) of the usual rush to judgment and place blame. Lessons will be learned.

Kerry MR have put up a video of the rescue. Conditions were brutal.

They don't have to physically close it, just declare it closed. If they continue and need assistance, they pay. Simple.

Gone West · 30-12-2015 2:00am

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-rescued-from-carrauntoohill-mountain-713430.html
Be careful out there lads. Looks like some poor decisions were made on the reek today.

Poncke · 30-12-2015 2:02am

Fuzzy wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-rescued-from-carrauntoohill-mountain-713430.html
Be careful out there lads. Looks like some poor decisions were made on the reek today.

That's what we were discussing

unkel · 30-12-2015 2:39am

Poncke wrote: »

People should pay all damages for their nonsense

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1229/756604-weather-storm-frank/

Who goes mountain walking in this kind of weather?! Irresponsible !

You don't know the details. People can get injured in any weather conditions. I wouldn't be too quick to pass judgment here...

icesnowfrost · 30-12-2015 3:09am

I think wen a warning has been issued and people still take the risk of going up carrauntoohil, then it's irresponsible on their behalf. The problem I would have is these people put the kerry mountain rescue team at EXTRA than normal risk of loosing their own life's.

monkeynuz · 30-12-2015 4:12am

unkel wrote: »

You don't know the details. People can get injured in any weather conditions. I wouldn't be too quick to pass judgment here...

All I can say is we live about 30 feet above sea level not a million miles from there and I didn't even go out driving in it earlier in the day because the weather was absolutely terrible, some of the worst winds we've experienced since moving here, anyone in their right mind would not have gone up a bloody mountain in those conditions.

People need to be answerable for their own stupidity.

Poncke · 30-12-2015 9:23am

unkel wrote: »

You don't know the details. People can get injured in any weather conditions. I wouldn't be too quick to pass judgment here...

The details I based my comment on are in the article. So I passed judgement correctly.

unkel · 30-12-2015 10:56am

What details? That it was very wet and very windy? Unless you can tell he broke his ankle because of the weather it really isn't up to you to judge that climber imho...

monkeynuz · 30-12-2015 11:00am

unkel wrote: »

What details? That it was very wet and very windy? Unless you can tell he broke his ankle because of the weather it really isn't up to you to judge that climber imho...

Whether the conditions played a part or not, 20 members of Kerry mountain rescue had to go up and bring the idiot down in horrific conditions, that alone is disgraceful, they would have known the conditions and potential hazards before they went up but carried on regardless, for that he and the rest of the group should be fined.

falan · 30-12-2015 12:57pm

Theres no evidence to say he broke his leg due to weather? rather be up on a open mountain in this weather than a street where slates and the likes could take you out. The mountain rescue want to be out. It's how they get more funding. The more incident s the more funding. Plus the experience is pretty invaluable to them.

Alun · 30-12-2015 1:02pm

falan wrote: »

The mountain rescue want to be out.

Trust me on this, they really don't.

jam_mac_jam · 30-12-2015 1:06pm

unkel wrote: »

What details? That it was very wet and very windy? Unless you can tell he broke his ankle because of the weather it really isn't up to you to judge that climber imho...

He put others in danger by going up there, if the weather caused it or not he shouldn't be up there because he is putting others at risk if something goes wrong as it did.

falan · 30-12-2015 1:12pm

Alun wrote:

Trust me on this, they really don't.

Trust me they do. Source:- one of the top men in one of the busiest mountain rescues in the country. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Alun · 30-12-2015 1:23pm

falan wrote: »

Trust me they do. Source:- one of the top men in one of the busiest mountain rescues in the country. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

I too know several local MRT members here in Wicklow both personally and through my volunteer work with SARDA, and I've never heard any of them wishing they had more call-outs.

Government funding for MRT's countrywide runs currently at about €250k per year, split amongst the 12 teams. The MRT's themselves have to provide the shortfall of approx. €500k themselves through donations. Any increase in the proportion of that government funding they receive would be small in comparison to what they have to raise themselves.

BarryD · 30-12-2015 1:25pm

monkeynuz wrote: »

Whether the conditions played a part or not, 20 members of Kerry mountain rescue had to go up and bring the idiot down in horrific conditions, that alone is disgraceful, they would have known the conditions and potential hazards before they went up but carried on regardless, for that he and the rest of the group should be fined.

Hill walking and mountain climbing in general is an adventure sport - I think people need to be reminded of that now and then. You take on challenges within your known limits and make judgement calls as you go along.

I know nothing of the background of this group that got into difficulty. If they were very inexperienced, you might be a touch critical in that they should have taken more note of the forecast.

But if they were any way experienced in hill walking in Ireland, they had every right to take on the challenges of an adventure sport and accept the consequences if things went wrong. In this case, the use of word 'idiot' is completely inappropriate imho. We don't want to be living in a nanny state when it comes to adventure sports, with agencies telling people what they can and cannot do.

falan · 30-12-2015 1:53pm

Alun wrote:

I too know several local MRT members here in Wicklow both personally and through my volunteer work with SARDA, and I've never heard any of them wishing they had more call-outs.

I spend every single day either up mountains or in rivers as a career. I recently did a wilderness first aid course ran by one of the fellas in the mountain rescues you speak of. He has ran courses all over the place in rescue techniques and probably taught your friends. Not to mention all the other people I know and interact with everyday who have many years experience in the outdoors.

falan · 30-12-2015 2:02pm

BarryD wrote:

But if they were any way experienced in hill walking in Ireland, they had every right to take on the challenges of an adventure sport and accept the consequences if things went wrong. In this case, the use of word 'idiot' is completely inappropriate imho. We don't want to be living in a nanny state when it comes to adventure sports, with agencies telling people what they can and cannot do.

Bang on. I have to log so many hikes with mountaineering ireland in all weather's. I climbed the galtees at night during the last storm. I felt safer up there among experienced people than I would on the street.i would not advise inexperienced people who cannot navigate to do it.

monkeynuz · 30-12-2015 2:09pm

BarryD wrote: »

Hill walking and mountain climbing in general is an adventure sport - I think people need to be reminded of that now and then. You take on challenges within your known limits and make judgement calls as you go along.

I know nothing of the background of this group that got into difficulty. If they were very inexperienced, you might be a touch critical in that they should have taken more note of the forecast.

But if they were any way experienced in hill walking in Ireland, they had every right to take on the challenges of an adventure sport and accept the consequences if things went wrong. In this case, the use of word 'idiot' is completely inappropriate imho. We don't want to be living in a nanny state when it comes to adventure sports, with agencies telling people what they can and cannot do.

As a consequence of these people (not idiots) 20 members of kmrt were required to go and rescue this adventurous person (not idiot)

In my opinion these people are idiots, I am all for people being adventurous and having fun but there is a limit, the weather was exceptionally bad, one of the worst storms since we moved here 9 years ago, it is not adventurous to put yourself in danger in those conditions, no one can truly be prepared for the weather we had yesterday some of the gusts alone were very violent.

If a sailor with years experience had gone out yesterday and needed the rnli to rescue him I would have also called him an idiot, or someone who tries to wade their 4x4 through floodwater and gets into trouble again would be an idiot.

I don't need any in depth information about the individual's circumstances, he shouldn't have been up there.

falan · 30-12-2015 2:11pm

There's no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing :- Ranulph Fiennes

monkeynuz · 30-12-2015 2:15pm

falan wrote: »

There's no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing :- Ranulph Fiennes

Because appropriate clothing will help with 75mph gusts on a mountain top.

trellheim · 30-12-2015 2:19pm

Experienced mountaineers and hillwalkers would tend to run through a checklist before going

1) Sense check - Yes, there may be a reason for going up in this weather -e.g. for training purposes. However, this needs to be balanced with a rescue plan - can I self rescue or will I put others in danger if I get into trouble and need a rescue. Where's the large party I need with me if one goes flat or injured. MRT may be otherwise tasked or unavailable, or comms may be out and you need lots of fallback options

If you can't answer the above or don't have good answers there you're just another overconfident prat on the mountain causing problems for others.

falan · 30-12-2015 2:33pm

monkeynuz wrote:

Because appropriate clothing will help with 75mph gusts on a mountain top.

At least with appropriate clothing you'll be drying as the rain is hitting you. :-D
When I/we go hiking as a group there is always a plan. If hillwalking at night then a text will be sent to one of the lads in the local MR team detailing van Reg etc in case someone sees the van parked up and panics. We always have an escape route and a plan.

fits · 30-12-2015 2:34pm

I was on inch beach, not too far from carauntoohil yesterday morning 10:30, before the storm came in proper. The wind was so strong you could barely stand up in the gusts and that's at sea level. I would imagine it would have been easy to be blown off the mountain yesterday no matter what your experience. These climbers not only endangered themselves but also the rescue team by going out in that yesterday. And they were well warned.

jimd2 · 30-12-2015 2:57pm

falan wrote: »

Theres no evidence to say he broke his leg due to weather? rather be up on a open mountain in this weather than a street where slates and the likes could take you out. The mountain rescue want to be out. It's how they get more funding. The more incident s the more funding. Plus the experience is pretty invaluable to them.

So by your warped and twisted logic the idiot that needed to be rescued on the mountain were doing the kerry mountain rescue a favour by having an accident and therefor increase the funding over normal funding (which btw you and I have to pay for).

That has to be one of the most bizarre and twisted pieces of logic i have ever heard and it's very dangerous too.

I suppose you also believe the the scouts that went on to the rocks in hook head were within their rights and that the incident will help the funding of the rescue services (which did a great job btw)! That poor girl was only new into the scouts and that was also madness.

I agree with the suggestion that people pay in cases where they have been warned about a storm, fair enough other times of the year an accident can happen in "normal" circumstances.

I also think that these groups that end up needing rescue in these storm circumstances should be named and shamed. It should be similar to drink driving in peoples attitudes to these people.

jimd2 · 30-12-2015 2:58pm

Poncke wrote: »

People should pay all damages for their nonsense

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1229/756604-weather-storm-frank/

Who goes mountain walking in this kind of weather?! Irresponsible !

I agree.

BarryD · 30-12-2015 3:26pm

Look if you want to be 'safe' just go for a walk in the local town park. People will always want to challenge themselves for various reasons, just for the thrill of it, to gain experience etc. The key thing is taking personal responsibility for the consequences, even if that includes serious injury and/or death. No one should expect to have a 'right' to be rescued if they take on more risk than they should, no MRT team should have to go out in conditions that they deem unacceptable. But nonetheless that should never stop people from taking on challenges and taking personal responsibility for them. Mountain Rescue should be looked upon as a service (voluntary or otherwise) that might and I stress might be able to help out, if things go pear shaped, but without any guarantees of availability.

Advice for Carrauntoohil

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