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Woman who strangled her newborn daughter to death... spared jail.

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  • 04-02-2017 11:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭


    I find this case incredulous... to say the bloody least and not for the first time The Guardian have chosen to not report on a story which the majority of the mainstream media have done, including The Sun, The Express, The Mirror, Sky News, Daily Mail, the BBC and even The Metro (etc etc etc).

    Anyway, here's a synopsis of the case (rest of the article here):
    Mum who strangled newborn baby to death with knickers after giving birth WALKS FREE

    Lithuanian Gintare Suminaite, 30, throttled the baby girl, the product of a secret affair, at the bedsit she shared with her boyfriend.

    Suminaite denied murder, but admitted infantcide claiming she had become "mentally disturbed" by the ordeal of giving birth.

    Gintare-Suminaite-claimed-she-was-mentally-disturbed-761381.jpg


    The Old Bailey heard how she wrapped her hands around the child's throat and squeezed "as hard as I could" before holding her under the shower in a bid to drown her.

    Suminaite then cut the umbilical cord with a razor blade before tying her underwear around the infant's neck and placing her in a baby bath on 5 April last year.

    Prosecutor Ed Brown QC told how Suminaite kept her pregnancy hidden from her partner, who she has another child with. He had no idea she was expecting until she confessed she had "done something bad" after falling pregnant during an affair with fellow Lithuanian Arturas Vencius, 32.

    But the relationship broke down and Suminaite began an affair with Mr Arturas in around February or March 2015. He knew he was the father of the child when Suminaite fell pregnant and hoped she would travel back to Lithuania with her.

    But she made no registration of her pregnancy, attended no ante-natal classes and hid it from her partner. Her partner had been working a night shift and awoke at around 2.40pm to hear the shower on.

    Suminaite eventually allowed him into the bathroom, where he found her naked and covered in blood next to a baby bath.

    "All the evidence shows that the child had been dead for some little time.." Suminaite continued to lose blood throughout the evening, but refused to see a doctor until she turned yellow and her partner insisted she had to go to hospital.

    She then confessed she had been pregnant with Mr Vencius' child. An ambulance was called at 5.42am on 6 April last year and Suminaite was rushed to hospital, but it was not until 9am that medics returned to the flat, where they found the child's lifeless body in the baby bath under a blanket and wet towels.

    Suminaite told police she "most likely" intended to kill her baby, but said she did not know why. She pleaded guilty to a charge of infanticide on 21 December last year.

    Sentencing, Mr Justice Nicol said: “The unlawful homicide of anyone is a tragedy, especially in the case when the victim is so young, even more so that is the case when the child dies at the hands of her mother.

    “However, your own circumstances were tragic in themselves and that is reflected in the nature of the offence to which you have pleaded guilty.

    “You were overwhelmed by the stress of your situation and in a state of partial denial during the pregnancy.

    “At the time of giving birth your were in a state of extreme anxiety and panic amounting to a temporary impairment of the balance of your mind.”

    "The courts recognise in circumstances such as this, where there is no underlying psychiatric illness, where there is a low risk of re-offending or causing harm, that what might otherwise be thought of as lenient is the appropriate course, namely a non-custodial sentence."

    The court heard the father of her child has broken off contact with her.

    The reason I find this case so incredulous is not because the defense had the gall to claim the woman had a temporary imbalance of her mind (that's their job) but because their nonsense argument was accepted by the court despite all evidence pointing to the contrary.

    This woman got pregnant as a result of an affair, chose to keep the pregnancy secret from not just her boyfriend but also from those she worked with, and didn't even register the pregnancy. By her own admission she had no mental health issues throughout the pregnancy either and when her boyfriend found her she immediately said she'd done something bad and was going to jail, so quite clearly someone who was very much aware of the gravity of what she had done.

    So what's the conclusion that she had a "temporary impairment of the balance of her mind" based on exactly then, as far from this woman's actions being indicative of her suffering mental impairment as a result of unexpectedly going into labour, on the contrary, her actions are very much consistent with how she had been behaving on and off for many many months. Otherwise she / they (if we include the father of this baby) would have registered this pregnancy.

    No doubt if this happened in Ireland it would be held up as an example of why we need "safe legal abortion" available to women here, to prevent such things happening again, but yet this happened in a country where they have such "health care" on tap.

    This woman choked her daughter to death because the child was a the result of an affair and has effectively got away with it. Had she not had difficulties herself with blood loss then I doubt we would ever have known that this baby had even existed as she didn't want to go to the hospital. 'Temporary impairment of the mind' my foot.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    'Temporary impairment of the mind' my foot.
    Actually, post-natal depression is extremely common, and infanticide is well enough known to be recognised as such, with a much reduced sentence compared to murder.

    If you think it's a messed up situation, imagine how messed up a mother has to be to do it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,314 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Victor wrote: »
    If you think it's a messed up situation, imagine how messed up a mother has to be to do it.

    You could say that about any crime


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,547 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Victor wrote: »
    Actually, post-natal depression is extremely common

    Is that the politically correct way to call murder of a baby?


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Just in case anyone is suffering from PND, there is support available - talk to your GP, public health nurse or a counsellor: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/Children/Postnatal_Depression_A_Guide_for_Mothers,_Family_and_Friends.pdf
    Is that the politically correct way to call murder of a baby?
    No. Many people suffer from PND - the scale can vary hugely. My sister found with her first baby that she would only get dressed at 4pm, whereas things radically improved when she went back to work part-time.

    https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/academic/appliedsocialstudies/TeresaCronin.pdf
    The results from this study indicate that the prevalence of women in Ireland and internationally that suffer from PND stands at 19.7% and 17.3% respectively. The most recently published studies places the prevalence of PND between 11.5%-20.7% in Ireland. International researches have reported similar finding with the median prevalence rate of PND found in the 27 studies found to be 14.6%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭exaisle


    It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,547 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Victor wrote: »
    Just in case anyone is suffering from PND, there is support available - talk to your GP, public health nurse or a counsellor: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/Children/Postnatal_Depression_A_Guide_for_Mothers,_Family_and_Friends.pdf

    No. Many people suffer from PND - the scale can vary hugely. My sister found with her first baby that she would only get dressed at 4pm, whereas things radically improved when she went back to work part-time.

    https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/academic/appliedsocialstudies/TeresaCronin.pdf


    I personally think your mind is warped. Murder is murder. A baby ffs. Mental Illness or common illness does not cover this. I'm sick and tired of excuses for every unforgivable act going. Depression? Give us a break. Seriously.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Got away with it??

    Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    exaisle wrote: »
    It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...
    Jawgap wrote: »
    Got away with it??

    Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?

    Is this how we do punishment now? By the amount of perceived guilt people feel? Anyway, why do you think she feels any guilt? Because she says so to get off a prison sentence?

    Of course she got away with it ffs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    I personally think your mind is warped. Murder is murder. A baby ffs. Mental Illness or common illness does not cover this. I'm sick and tired of excuses for every unforgivable act going. Depression? Give us a break. Seriously.

    The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Is this how we do punishment now? By the amount of perceived guilt people feel?

    No, we do it by putting all the facts before a court, along with the required expert opinion......those facts are then tested by advocates for different viewpoints.

    A dispassionate conclusion, generally by a panel of fellow citizens, is reached and a punishment commensurate with the crime is determined and applied.

    Tabloids, internet discussion boards etc have, thankfully, no role in the process - but they are a good outlet for people who don't understand the issues.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    Jawgap wrote: »
    No, we do it by putting all the facts before a court, along with the required expert opinion......those facts are then tested by advocates for different viewpoints.

    A dispassionate conclusion, generally by a panel of fellow citizens, is reached and a punishment commensurate with the crime is determined and applied.

    Tabloids, internet discussion boards etc have, thankfully, no role in the process - but they are a good outlet for people who don't understand the issues ;)

    Grand, whatever, if the smiley face makes you feel better. A baby is dead at the end of the day but at least you get your smug point across.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.

    No, if it was the father it would be a different defence because the Infanticide Act allows only for a diminished capacity defence linked to childbirth.

    The father, if he committed such a heinous act, would have to run a straight diminished capacity defence rather than anything linked to pregnancy.

    The law simply recognises that giving birth can be a traumatic experience and whatever it might do to the body, it can also severely impact the mind to the point where a person's normal perspective dissolves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Grand, whatever, if the smiley face makes you feel better. A baby is dead at the end of the day but at least you get your smug point across.

    The point being there's a reason these things are best dealt with by a court and is dispassionate a way as possible.

    Do you have a better way?

    EDIT: and you're right, the use of the smiley was inappropriate and I've removed it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

    An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

    An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.

    If someone is delusional their behaviour doesn't tend towards objective rationality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Why is this news to you?

    Take a look across the punishments for serious crimes. Women always do less, and do their time in better facilties.

    Take Mountjoy and the Dochas for eg. Mountjoy cram cells and the prisoners still slop out.

    In the Dochas centre each woman is given a key to her cell/room. Can you imagine that? being in prison and having a key to your cell.

    Dochas cells also have en suite bathrooms.

    In the Joy, they shower together. This where many men have their first gay experience.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    OP is it that you don't "believe " in mental illness at all, or, despite you not being a psychiatric health professional and not having access to all the evidence in this case, you've bizarrely decided that those who ARE psychiatric health professionals and HAVE seen all the evidence are somehow wrong and you are right?!?
    You do know that's utterly ludicrous?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

    An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.

    "you would have thought "
    Is that your opinion as a mental health professional Galwayguy or did you just pull it out of your a***


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,428 ✭✭✭tritium


    To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

    Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,341 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    infogiver wrote: »
    "you would have thought "
    Is that your opinion as a mental health professional Galwayguy or did you just pull it out of your a***

    Are you this rude to people in real life as well?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    tritium wrote: »
    To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

    Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....

    From your indepth experience of this particular case, what brings you to the conclusion that a verdict was reached too hastily?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    tritium wrote: »
    To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

    Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....

    No one is saying the perpetrator is a victim, as far as I can see.

    They are saying these are singular circumstances and that, in this case, the punishment fits the crime. If there is a theme on this thread it seems to be the idea that the woman got away with it because of some hokey defence that wouldn't be available to a man.

    .....and I guarantee you there was no rush. For a start if someone is going to run a defence they have to admit the offence - in other words admit responsibility for the actions that led to the outcome they are on trial for. The offence also allows for the prosecution of mothers whose children die due to a failure to act on their part.

    That makes the prosecution's job that bit easier because now the burden of proof shifts to the defence and they have to prove to the satisfaction of the jury (and the judge) all elements of the defence they are running. It's not just simply a case of saying "she'd just given birth ergo she wasn't responsible for her actions."

    They have to prove that "the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child."


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Are you this rude to people in real life as well?

    Well, either your giving a professional opinion on this particular case, or your just making up nonsense as your going along. Which is it? (better?)


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Take Mountjoy ... the prisoners still slop out.
    A bit off topic, but I understand this has ended.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Was mental illness not ruled out? Would this not include depression and PND?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,314 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    exaisle wrote: »
    It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...

    You could say that about any crime


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    In the UK, at least until recently and probably now, concealing a pregnancy is in itself an offence in law.

    Abortion also is freely available there.

    As is support and help in both circumstances.

    Whatever her state at the time of the birth?

    She had decided to continue with the pregnancy. What was her intention then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Ellie2008


    People keep citing post-natal depression, I'm assuming the court found the woman suffered from post-partum psychosis, a much more serious illness which is much more unusual than post-natal depression.
    Women are know to have delusions that the baby is the devil, voices order them to flush the baby down the toilet that type of thing...

    I feel people need to accept that it is possible to lose your sanity. If you didn't have the mental capacity to commit the crime you shouldn't IMO be jailed for it.
    I understand that a baby is dead, punishing a mother who acted under delusions achieves nothing & would be morally wrong IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    If only we had Baying mob justice... oh wait, that's Trump's America...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Graces7 wrote: »
    In the UK, at least until recently and probably now, concealing a pregnancy is in itself an offence in law.

    Abortion also is freely available there.

    As is support and help in both circumstances.

    Whatever her state at the time of the birth?

    She had decided to continue with the pregnancy. What was her intention then?

    Maybe she is mental and needs treatment from an appropriate residential care provider to stop this behaviour.


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