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Woman who strangled her newborn daughter to death... spared jail.

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    #152
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Deleted User wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Someone who kills someone else is a murderer. ( note no capitals this time in case it offends you )

    That's so simplistic as to be patent nonsense.

    Because someone who kills someone else but has a defence, provocation, self defence, inability to form intent, may be a killer but may obviously not be a murderer.
    The 3 cases been quoted in the post I responded to. The little girl in Cork. The cavan family and the new born baby. We're all killed by a murderer. Would you prefer me to say a loving father in Cork and cavan. And a loving mother in uk. ? Nonsense.


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    #153
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,299 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Did he "choose" to go through hours of severe physical pain, nearly bleeding to death and even then still have to be forced to seek medical help?

    Maybe that makes a difference in how people estimate the state of someone's mental health?

    Personally I'd be more concerned with the pain an innocent baby had to go through and who had no chance of life at all.

    That's who my sympathy is with.


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    #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The 3 cases been quoted in the post I responded to. The little girl in Cork. The cavan family and the new born baby. We're all killed by a murderer. Would you prefer me to say a loving father in Cork and cavan. And a loving mother in uk. ? Nonsense.

    What a complete non sequitor.

    You said someone who kills another is a murderer. That's simply incorrect as a matter of law. Referring to individual cases that may have involved murder does not mean every case must be murder. And the idea that such people are either murderers or they must be loving parents is silly.

    I find it hard to believe that I am explaining this. You surely know this and are being obtuse.


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    #155
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Maybe she was worried her partner would get wind of the abortion but it's a fair point.

    You're not seriously suggesting that her partner would be more likely to learn somehow about a confidential and free medical procedure that can be done as an outpatient than to 1) simply notice her pregnancy at some point during the months remaining or 2) notice her giving birth/miscarrying in their home?


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    #156
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Deleted User wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The 3 cases been quoted in the post I responded to. The little girl in Cork. The cavan family and the new born baby. We're all killed by a murderer. Would you prefer me to say a loving father in Cork and cavan. And a loving mother in uk. ? Nonsense.

    What a complete non sequitor.

    You said someone who kills another is a murderer. That's simply incorrect as a matter of law. Referring to individual cases that may have involved murder does not mean every case must be murder. And the idea that such people are either murderers or they must be loving parents is silly.

    I find it hard to believe that I am explaining this. You surely know this and are being obtuse.
    Hardly. I just hate "so called parents " who kill their children.


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    #157
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Maybe she was worried her partner would get wind of the abortion but it's a fair point.



    I've never looked into PND in any great detail.

    As far as I know it can happen when feeling overwhelmed with the new baby or if things are becoming hard to cope worth.

    Even a mother with 24/7 help and a baby that sleeps like an angel can have PND, it's a physical medical condition that is down to the hormonal/chemical changes in the body after childbirth, it happens regardless of how difficult things are for the new mother.

    Obviously it can be heightened if the mother is overwhelmed or if there are difficulties with the labour etc. But it can happen to anybody and it's actually really important that people realise that, because plenty of mothers feel they cannot have PND because everything is fine in their home life and the baby is an easy baby so they feel that asking for help or feeling the way they do is selfish/wrong when in actual fact it is an illness and not just a feeling of being overwhelmed etc.


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    #158
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Personally I'd be more concerned with the pain an innocent baby had to go through and who had no chance of life at all.

    That's who my sympathy is with.

    Moving the goalposts a bit though, aren't you!
    That's not what your original point was at all - you brought in another killing and asked which of the two killers people would have more sympathy with. Now you're avoiding answering my request for information about the second case, which I know nothing about. Why did you bring it in if you can't make the comparison stand up?


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    #159
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    There was an Irish Times piece by a woman with PND. It was quite scary. She sounded ready to snap at the sound of her toddler chewing his food.


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    #160
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    volchitsa wrote: »
    You're not seriously suggesting that her partner would be more likely to learn somehow about a confidential and free medical procedure that can be done as an outpatient than to 1) simply notice her pregnancy at some point during the months remaining or 2) notice her giving birth/miscarrying in their home?

    I'm not suggesting anything.

    I've no idea what goes through the head of an individual that decides to kill their newborn baby within minutes of it being born.

    Maybe it was all premeditated and she was planning to dispose of the body only she lost so much blood she wasn't able to do it. Then nobody would have ever found out about the horrific end this baby endured.


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    #161
    Mrs Woman
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Mrs Woman


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Personally I'd be more concerned with the pain an innocent baby had to go through and who had no chance of life at all.

    That's who my sympathy is with.


    I find having sympathy for more than one side is possible. The woman was found to have been ill and this case will not have been taken lightly with all who were working on it. God love both of them. Things are not always black and white and thankfully we've made some progress in our understanding of people and the way the mind works as there really are people who deserve compassion and help, not a jail sentence.


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    #162
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    neonsofa wrote: »
    Even a mother with 24/7 help and a baby that sleeps like an angel can have PND, it's a physical medical condition that is down to the hormonal/chemical changes in the body after childbirth, it happens regardless of how difficult things are for the new mother.

    Obviously it can be heightened if the mother is overwhelmed or if there are difficulties with the labour etc. But it can happen to anybody and it's actually really important that people realise that, because plenty of mothers feel they cannot have PND because everything is fine in their home life and the baby is an easy baby so they feel that asking for help or feeling the way they do is selfish/wrong when in actual fact it is an illness and not just a feeling of being overwhelmed etc.

    The things I mentioned can trigger it. I would think it's possibly more common after a tough birth, if the baby is very hard work or the mother has no support?


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    #163
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,024 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Leave the innocent baby on the street at a church or police station give it a chance

    Any parent who takes a childs life because of their problems is a selfish coward

    Mental illness is not instant you have time to get the innocent child away from you


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    #164
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Mrs Woman wrote: »
    I find having sympathy for more than one side is possible. The woman was found to have been ill and this case will not have been taken lightly with all who were working on it. God love both of them. Things are not always black and white and thankfully we've made some progress in our understanding of people and the way the mind works as there really are people who deserve compassion and help, not a jail sentence.

    She was found to have no underlying psychiatric illness and apparently has such a low chance of re-offending or causing harm that 60 days rehabilitation is enough.

    Would you want this woman around your children or family?


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    #165
    Mrs Woman
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Mrs Woman


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Mental illness is not instant you have time to get the innocent child away from you


    For your information this is the definition of mental illness from the Ocford Dictionary. I don't think I need explain why someone might do something terrible when suffering from a mental illness. This does not make it ok to kill someone by the way. It just explains why it might have happened.

    mental illness
    noun
    a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking.


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    #166
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting anything.

    I've no idea what goes through the head of an individual that decides to kill their newborn baby within minutes of it being born.

    Maybe it was all premeditated and she was planning to dispose of the body only she lost so much blood she wasn't able to do it. Then nobody would have ever found out about the horrific end this baby endured.

    If your hypothesis is that she was insane, possibly only temporarily, then that makes sense.

    But in the context of a country where abortion is free and legal, for a sane woman to choose to put herself through what she did, literally risking her life, when she could have got rid of the pregnancy at any stage up to 25 weeks just makes no sense at all.

    So why do you hang onto this idea that she might have planned this "all along" despite not being able to make it make any sense at all?


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    #167
    Colser
    Registered Users Posts: 5,572 ✭✭✭Colser


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Leave the innocent baby on the street at a church or police station give it a chance

    Any parent who takes a childs life because of their problems is a selfish coward

    Mental illness is not instant you have time to get the innocent child away from you

    This would be my opinion on it also.

    What would have happened if she didn't need medical help..would she have hidden the body and carried on with her life?Also why didn't her partner call emergency services as soon as he realised what had happened..even if she wasn't bleeding there was still a baby that was dying//dead in the house?


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    #168
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    The things I mentioned can trigger it. I would think it's possibly more common after a tough birth, if the baby is very hard work or the mother has no support?

    Like with all depression, there can be circumstantial causes and triggers, but PND can happen to any mother as a result of the drop in hormones after birth and that has nothing to do with those triggers, they can compound how she is feeling for sure, and they can also be the root cause for some women. But PND in general terms is not just a mother feeling overwhelmed or a mother in need of a pair of hands around the house (these certainly help though!)


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    #169
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If your hypothesis is that she was insane, possibly only temporarily, then that makes sense.

    But in the context of a country where abortion is free and legal, for a sane woman to choose to put herself through what she did, literally risking her life, when she could have got rid of the pregnancy at any stage up to 25 weeks just makes no sense at all.

    So why do you hang onto this idea that she might have planned this "all along" despite not being able to make it make any sense at all?

    As I said I don't know what she was thinking, nobody does.

    So what do you think was her thought process.
    She wanted the baby until she saw it, then went temporarily psychotic and killed the baby but now is fine again and is going to be an upstanding member of the community after the 60 days rehab?


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    #170
    Mrs Woman
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Mrs Woman


    mdwexford wrote: »
    She was found to have no underlying psychiatric illness and apparently has such a low chance of re-offending or causing harm that 60 days rehabilitation is enough.

    Would you want this woman around your children or family?

    You don't have to have an underlying psychiatric illness to crack up under extreme pressure. We are all vulnerable to that and even though we think we might never do something, it really is true that we can never say for sure. Do you think anyone says "if I have a baby sometime in the future I'll strangle it". No they don't and would be horrified at the very thought. The mind is a baffling thing though.

    And of course at this point in time I'd be wary leaving my children to be looked after by a vulnerable person such as this. It doesn't mean my point and view is moot by any means.


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    #171
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    ..................


    Mental illness is not instant you have time to get the innocent child away from you

    postpartum psychosis can affect any woman fairly suddenly






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    #172
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    As I said I don't know what she was thinking, nobody does.

    So what do you think was her thought process.
    She wanted the baby until she saw it, then went temporarily psychotic and killed the baby but now is fine again and is going to be an upstanding member of the community after the 60 days rehab?

    No, we know she was in denial about her pregnancy, and some of how that happens was explained by Julius Caesar who is apparently a mental health professional. I'm not, but I do know two people who exhibited some of these signs of denial in pregnancy and what JC said fitted exactly with what I know of those two cases.

    We've also been told about post natal psychosis, where women can lose contact with reality and have delusions about the baby being possessed by the devil of whatever.

    So there you have two forms of severe mental illness, either or both of which could explain what happened. But you think that for some completely inexplicable reason she planned all along to suffer horrendously and to risk her life but that this was somehow all part of a plan.

    Can you acknowledge that it doesn't sound like a plan that any sane person would come up with?


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    #173
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Mrs Woman wrote: »
    You don't have to have an underlying psychiatric illness to crack up under extreme pressure. We are all vulnerable to that and even though we think we might never do something, it really is true that we can never say for sure. Do you think anyone says "if I have a baby sometime in the future I'll strangle it". No they don't and would be horrified at the very thought. The mind is a baffling thing though.

    And of course at this point in time I'd be wary leaving my children to be looked after by a vulnerable person such as this. It doesn't mean my point and view is moot by any means.

    I find it hard to understand how a person who cracks to this degree can be called a low risk of re-offending or causing harm.

    Surely she needs a long time in a mental institution to assess her mental state and possible danger to the public.


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    #174
    Mrs Woman
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Mrs Woman


    mdwexford wrote: »
    I find it hard to understand how a person who cracks to this degree can be called a low risk of re-offending or causing harm.

    Surely she needs a long time in a mental institution to assess her mental state and possible danger to the public.

    I actually agree that perhaps she needs more psychiatric care however I don't know how you measure 'a long time'. Perhaps she is getting lots of after care, I'd imagine that is the case.

    She's not being punished and you can't lock someone up in a mental institution as punishment masquerading as care. It's just not right to punish someone who was ill or cracked under pressure. It has never improved anything nor served society.

    I think she would also be monitored very closely if she were to have another child.


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    #175
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    mdwexford wrote: »
    I find it hard to understand how a person who cracks to this degree can be called a low risk of re-offending or causing harm.

    Surely she needs a long time in a mental institution to assess her mental state and possible danger to the public.

    Criminologist? psychologist? Psychiatrist? Murder Squad detective? Officer the court?

    Just trying to establish the basis of your beliefs.


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    #176
    Commotion Ocean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Commotion Ocean


    I suppose female Nazis standing at the Nuremburg trials could have just claim PND then. This woman is no better than Hitler or Kim Jong Un.


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    #177
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    mdwexford wrote: »
    I find it hard to understand how a person who cracks to this degree can be called a low risk of re-offending or causing harm.

    Surely she needs a long time in a mental institution to assess her mental state and possible danger to the public.

    Presumably that is because her condition is known to be closely associated with pregnancy and childbirth, so if she isn't pregnant she isn't at risk?


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    #178
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    dfeo wrote: »
    I suppose female Nazis standing at the Nuremburg trials could have just claim PND then.

    That's some leap.....even for this thread.


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    #179
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    volchitsa wrote: »
    No, we know she was in denial about her pregnancy, and some of how that happens was explained by Julius Caesar who is apparently a mental health professional. I'm not, but I do know two people who exhibited some of these signs of denial in pregnancy and what JC said fitted exactly with what I know of those two cases.

    We've also been told about post natal psychosis, where women can lose contact with reality and have delusions about the baby being possessed by the devil of whatever.

    So there you have two forms of severe mental illness, either or both of which could explain what happened. But you think that for some completely inexplicable reason she planned all along to suffer horrendously and to risk her life but that this was somehow all part of a plan.

    Can you acknowledge that it doesn't sound like a plan that any sane person would come up with?

    Women with no history of mental illness apparently have a lower risk of post natal psychosis and less chance again on subsequent pregnancies after the first.

    Again I don't think anything. Knowing what she planned during the pregnancy and after the birth is impossible.

    I can acknowledge that doesn't sound like a plan a sane person would come up with.

    If she did suffer something like thinking her baby was the devil and she had to kill them then I cannot understand how she is not ruled a danger.


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    #180
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The man who killed his family in cavan and the man who killed his little girl in Cork and this "mother" who killed her new born baby are all exactly the same. They are ..........MURDERERS.

    Just not true. Your absolutely wrong.


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    #181
    Mrs Woman
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Mrs Woman


    mdwexford wrote: »

    If she did suffer something like thinking her baby was the devil and she had to kill them then I cannot understand how she is not ruled a danger.

    She didn't think her baby was the devil. You are speculating quite a bit but I understand you are upset and shocked by the case. Its a very tough one!


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