Desperately need help to get comfortable on the bike

D13exile · 09-08-2020 6:34pm #1

I posted most of this in the “how was your cycle today” thread but I’m throwing it out to the wider forum as I really need help getting comfortable on the bike.

Quick summary
I’ve been cycling regularly (about 4 times a week with spins of 40-80kms and averaging speeds of 33kph) for about 6 years now. I’m pretty fit as I’m hardly breathing heavy while pushing that speed and I can do long spins without stopping. However I have never ever had a spin where I was pain free in the saddle area. Not once...ever. I’ve had proper bike fits and I’ve had three different saddles (original Bontrager, a leather Brooks and a Selle Italia) but none of them ever gave me a pain free cycle. So I went back to my bike fitter yesterday and had a refit including a sit bone test. He fitted a new saddle and according to the read outs, this new saddle showed that I was putting less pressure on my sit bones. So I went for a longish spin this morning to test it out. Let’s just say that after just 5kms, I was feeling the new saddle and after 40kms, I had to get off the bike as I was in agony. My ass was on fire with pain and my man bits felt like they would burst with the pressure on them. A few minutes walking got rid of the pain but once back on the bike, it was agony again. I turned for home and did the last 32kms in an hour despite the pain but I honestly felt like getting off the bike and fecking it into a ditch.

It’s bloody frustrating as I’ve gotten the bike fit, I’m in good shape and I can maintain a good speed for long distances but I just cannot get a pain free spin. I’d love to just concentrate on pushing myself hard to up my speed but all I think about is how much my saddle is digging into me. Cycling is becoming a chore now as I know that I’m going to suffer in the pursuit of trying to stay fit.

So that’s my whinge. I honestly don’t know what to do. If a professional bike fitter with all the gizmos can’t get me comfortable on the bike, what next? I can’t afford to buy saddle after saddle to try and find “the one”. What about bibs? My go to bibs are the Galibier brand as I’ve tried dhb, sportful and endura in the past without success.

Any ideas or does anyone want to buy a bike? (and I’m only half joking as I’m not a masochist and I don’t like putting myself through pain again and again)

Tony04 · 09-08-2020 7:50pm

If you have decent bibs you can rule that out. Have you tried a cut out saddle/ non cut out saddle?

Man with broke phone · 09-08-2020 7:54pm

Whats your height and weight?

Luxman · 09-08-2020 8:14pm

This doesn't seem right to me "this new saddle showed that I was putting less pressure on my sit bones."

Your sit bones should be taking the bulk of the weight/pressure. I have been fairly lucky with saddles, over the years I found the Brooks the best, no longer use one but it was delightful once you get past the breaking in the leather stage. The reason is that it is rock hard which means your sit bones are taking your weight as they should, thus relieving pressure on the soft squishy bits. There is no soft foam bits to contact the sensitive areas thus protecting them.

when you sit on the bike you should clearly feel your bones being in contact with the saddle, very distinct sensation. Not saying you should run off and buy a Brooks now, but the fitter seems to be going in the wrong direction if they are trying to receive the pressure.

I stand /sit to be corrected on the above, just my experience

D13exile · 09-08-2020 8:25pm

Tony04 wrote: »

If you have decent bibs you can rule that out. Have you tried a cut out saddle/ non cut out saddle?

My last saddle (Selle Italia) was a cut out and my ass would be numb on it and eventually painful. This new one has no cut out and my ass is on fire with pain and my man bits feel like the pressure is going to burst then.

D13exile · 09-08-2020 8:27pm

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Whats your height and weight?

I’m 1 metre 78 and 92 kg. I’m built like a rugby player, broad shoulders and 44 inch chest but I’ve no fat on me. My diet is good and so it’s not a case that I’m carrying too much weight around that I can lose.

D13exile · 09-08-2020 8:30pm

Luxman wrote: »

This doesn't seem right to me "this new saddle showed that I was putting less pressure on my sit bones."

Your sit bones should be taking the bulk of the weight/pressure. I have been fairly lucky with saddles, over the years I found the Brooks the best, no longer use one but it was delightful once you get past the breaking in the leather stage. The reason is that it is rock hard which means your sit bones are taking your weight as they should, thus relieving pressure on the soft squishy bits. There is no soft foam bits to contact the sensitive areas thus protecting them.

when you sit on the bike you should clearly feel your bones being in contact with the saddle, very distinct sensation. Not saying you should run off and buy a Brooks now, but the fitter seems to be going in the wrong direction if they are trying to receive the pressure.

I stand /sit to be corrected on the above, just my experience

When I say there was less pressure on the sit bones, it was a measurement taken once on my old saddle and then again on the new one. It showed a decrease in weight/pressure on the sit bones. He also lowered my handlebars to put more weight onto my hands and to push me forward off the saddle I suppose. I did feel the pressure on the sit bones this morning alright, especially the right one. I cycle a fair bit and so my undercarriage should be toughened up but jesus it was bloody painful today.

I have a brooks and used it for about a year but I never found it comfortable either.

Tony04 · 09-08-2020 9:27pm

Cut out saddles are designed to alleviate pressure off your bits, so if they felt squashed on your ride today that might be the culprit.
The pain in your sitbone might be from under engagement on your last saddle??? Or is it the same as previously

D13exile · 09-08-2020 9:44pm

Tony04 wrote: »

Cut out saddles are designed to alleviate pressure off your bits, so if they felt squashed on your ride today that might be the culprit.
The pain in your sitbone might be from under engagement on your last saddle??? Or is it the same as previously

Yes I think I definitely need a cut out although he did say cut outs can actually put pressure on the soft tissue.

Sorry I don’t know what you mean by “under engagement”? On my previous Selle Italia saddle, I’d go numb on the left side which would become painful after about 20kms. On this one, the pain starts on the right side and then spreads.

Tony04 · 09-08-2020 10:12pm

Cut outs divide opinion some people swear by them some people loathe them. But if they work for you go for them. I would be under the thinking that overtime soft tissue would adapt to demands placed on it and as long you dont overdo it you shouldn't have any issues there, but am open to correction.
What I mean by under engagement is that on your previous saddle position you were perhaps putting pressure on some areas more (overengaged) than others (undrengaged). That could be why you were experiencing soreness on your right sit bone today as your left which you said used to get numb was probably under to much pressure(causes numbness) and therefore your right sitbone wouldn't be used to sitting on the saddle, causing soreness today.

smacl · 10-08-2020 12:00am

What tyre widths and pressures are you running? If you go for a wider tyre at lower pressure it will soften the ride a fair bit. Also changing hand position can relieve weight on your rear end and change the area taking pressure.

nilhg · 10-08-2020 8:15am

A couple of bike fits (at least) over 6 years and never pain free is a spectacularly bad result for both rider and bike fitter, personally if I was you I'd be seeking a second opinion.

For what it's worth, and that's not much as rider interaction with the contact points of his/her bike is such a personal thing here's a few things I'd try.

Do a few rides with copious amounts of chamois creme applied, may not have any effect but if friction is part of the issue you should notice a difference.

Try at least one of the new(ish) varieties of snubby nosed saddles, Specalised power is the first one that comes to mind but there are loads of brands. Ideally get a loan of one somewhere but some shops/brands have try before you buy policies in place.

Sometimes a slight downward tip of the front of the saddle can make a difference to comfort.

Shorts, you didn't say what you have but given the situation you find yourself in you'd have to be looking at these as well. My experience is that generally once you stay out of the real budget category the pads are decent but occasionally I've had shorts/saddle combinations that didn't work for me.

hesker · 10-08-2020 8:35am

You’ve tried different saddles but have you tried different width saddles.

iwillhtfu · 10-08-2020 10:05am

D13exile wrote: »

If a professional bike fitter with all the gizmos can’t get me comfortable on the bike, what next?

Who did you do the bike fit with? It's all well and good having the toys but if you don't know how to use them they're useless.

Also any change in rider position is going to feel uncomfortable as the body adjusts. I'm not sure why he would move more weight onto your hands though I'd have thought that would just move the issue.

It's recommended all the time but it is a cheap risk. The charge spoon saddle is only €22 depending on where you shop and it is a very comfortable saddle.

Vincenzo Nibbly · 10-08-2020 10:24am

Is your saddle dead level, or tilted nose down a tiny bit? For my money, 2.5 degrees nose down is the sweet spot.

D13exile · 10-08-2020 10:53am

Thanks for all the replies guys.

First off, my bike fitter is recognised as the best in the business but I’m not naming names. He loaned me this new saddle to try out for a few weeks. I’m going to go for a few short 30km spins and suffer for the hour in the hope it’ll break in. Otherwise I’ll be bringing it back to him.

He fitted the saddle nose down but I felt myself sliding forward on the bike yesterday which I’ve never experienced before. I kept shoving myself back in the saddle and locking my arms to keep myself back.

I tried different hand positions too to see if that would help my weight distribution, ie on hoods, drops and top of bars but nothing helped.

As for tyres, I’m running Conti GP4000 700x25 with 100psi in front and 110psi in rear (which is the recommended for my weight).

The only thing I’ve left to try myself is a change of bib shorts. I use Galibeir gear as I find its well made and lasts. But as I suffer with the seating area, I’m open to trying another brand to see if it helps. I know this is personal choice but I’m willing to try anything at this point. So are there any other 5ft 10, 90kg cyclists with 44 inch chest out there and what brand/size do you swear by?

I feel if I can solve this saddle soreness issue, I’ll be unstoppable on the bike!

ED E · 10-08-2020 10:57am

Any compliance in your frame?

10-08-2020 11:48am

In all seriousness, have you thought about a recumbent, you won't get more comfortable than that

smacl · 10-08-2020 1:09pm

D13exile wrote: »

As for tyres, I’m running Conti GP4000 700x25 with 100psi in front and 110psi in rear (which is the recommended for my weight).

The only thing I’ve left to try myself is a change of bib shorts. I use Galibeir gear as I find its well made and lasts. But as I suffer with the seating area, I’m open to trying another brand to see if it helps. I know this is personal choice but I’m willing to try anything at this point. So are there any other 5ft 10, 90kg cyclists with 44 inch chest out there and what brand/size do you swear by?

Currently 82kg down from 91kg at Christmas, 6ft, not sure of my chest measurement but typically XL in jumpers and the like. Way slower on the bike than you though ~25kph on the flat, ~20kph on hilly routes. Went through a few saddles and couple of years of discomfort before settling on the Brooks B17 as my saddle of choice. The B17 took a fair number of long rides to get used to but is probably the only saddle I'm really comfortable in. Currently using Galibier and DHB Aeron bibs and no big issues for a couple of 6-7 hour spins over the last month or so. Also currently running 38c Shwlabe G1 gravel tyres at 40/50 psi front back as I mix in a fair bit of off-road. Used to run Durano plus 25c at 90/100psi front back which were way harsher but still softer than your setup.

Just a guess but I reckon wider tyres at lower pressure will give you more comfort, albeit risking losing a small amount of speed due to rolling resistance. In your position, first thing I'd try are 28c tyres if you've got the clearance, running at the minimum pressure to avoid pinch flats for your weight. Also worth checking the size of your bibs, I'm XL in Galibier and could probably get away with a slightly larger size, the DHB XL is defo a slightly looser fit. Could be worth trying one size up to get more wriggle room and as someone else suggested and bit of chamois cream.

Best of luck with it, I reckon many of us have been through similar pain but not for anywhere near so long.

gaffmaster · 10-08-2020 2:09pm

Has your bike fitter done anything to your feet? Often, instability in the feet can cause problems in the saddle area. I was getting saddle sores until I supported my arches properly. I have custom insoles, but found they don't offer enough arch support, and have replaced them with G8 insoles instead (these are highly adjustable).

Also - try dropping your saddle 20mm for a ride or two. If the pain in your hoop eases, raise the saddle incremently to find the sweet spot. There's a chance your fitter might have been working to a metric on this, but you might sit outside the brackets of 'average'.

Edit: Also try sliding your cleats all the way back towards the heel of your shoes for more stability.

hesker · 10-08-2020 2:10pm

I know you’ve tried a Brooks leather saddle but have read of people complaining of some that were impossible to break in. Might be worth trying another although appreciate it might be difficult to stay with it.

A proper functioning Brooks should mould itself slightly to your fit as it gets broken in. Retensioning will probably be necessary. As they are a suspension saddle they should not be rock hard after they have been broken in. However this doesn’t happen for some people for whatever reason.

The above is just from what I’ve read over the years and you’ve possibly already heard it all.

I suffered serious saddle pain when I got back into cycling but the solution for me was to address tight muscles.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2020 2:19pm

What bike do you have?

D13exile · 10-08-2020 3:01pm

I've a Trek Domane. It's an endurance geometry with a supposedly flexible seat post to soften the ride.

I still have the Brooks B17 saddle I bought five years ago up in the attic. It was on the bike for a year and should have been well broken in but not for me.

The new saddle he fitted is the absolute minimum when it comes to saddles. Little padding and a slim shape. My last Selle Italia had more padding, a cut out and was longer. He said judging by the wear on the sides of it, my thighs were rubbing off it. The new saddle is narrower and the thighs don't come into contact with it.

As I said, he also tilted it slightly down at the front. I don't think this suits me as I was forever pushing myself back on the saddle yesterday and having to lock my arms to keep myself there.

As I said, this guy knows his business and I'm sure some/most of you have guessed who he is. Therefore I don't doubt his expertise. The issue is with my ass, which appears to be the achilles heel of my set up (bad pun I know)

nak · 10-08-2020 3:44pm

I would have thought that lowering your bars would cause more pressure on your pelvis. The Specialized Mimic Power saddle might be worth a try, short nose and the cutout has been filled with a squidgy material to alleviate pressure. It's branded as a women's saddle but is also popular with men. Important to get the correct width and can take a bit of tweaking to the bike fit to get it right.

MojoMaker · 10-08-2020 4:03pm

If it's AH I would say he hasn't been the best in the business for some time now - very basic service in 2020.

I'm about your dimensions, a little bigger if anything, and I settled on a Prologo Kappa Evo with PAS (basically a cutaway) 143mm width - have it on all my bikes now, absolute bliss. Not the world's lightest saddle by any means, but no slug either.

I got to this saddle after much the same debate as you - albeit not driven by outright pain, more by general comfort and support. Fizik used to have a gauge on their website which oriented most cyclists across their 3 main road offerings - Arione, Antares, and Aliante - depending on your build, mobility, and flexibility. Much of the theory carries over cross-manufacturer, to the extent that if you're an Aliante-rider then never try to force an Arione-type saddle under your ar$e, and so on.....might be worth a look.

Eamonnator · 10-08-2020 4:08pm

O.P.
I'm in Drogheda.
I have the following
1) Charge Spoon.
2) Fizik Antares.
3) Selle Italia Max Flite.

If you want to try any or all of these for a week or so, you are welcome to do so.
1 and 2 are almost new. 3 is old, but is in good condition, it has the cut out.
None are for sale.

Luxman · 10-08-2020 5:15pm

Im in Ratoath and have a charge spoon and a Astute skylab saddle if you want to test them

who_ru · 10-08-2020 7:09pm

https://youtu.be/QMy_2pR4Mzg

07Lapierre · 10-08-2020 7:28pm

MojoMaker wrote: »

If it's AH I would say he hasn't been the best in the business for some time now - very basic service in 2020.

I'm about your dimensions, a little bigger if anything, and I settled on a Prologo Kappa Evo with PAS (basically a cutaway) 143mm width - have it on all my bikes now, absolute bliss. Not the world's lightest saddle by any means, but no slug either.

I got to this saddle after much the same debate as you - albeit not driven by outright pain, more by general comfort and support. Fizik used to have a gauge on their website which oriented most cyclists across their 3 main road offerings - Arione, Antares, and Aliante - depending on your build, mobility, and flexibility. Much of the theory carries over cross-manufacturer, to the extent that if you're an Aliante-rider then never try to force an Arione-type saddle under your ar$e, and so on.....might be worth a look.

According to Fizik, with my lack of flexibility, I should be using the Antares saddle. I've been using the Arione without any issue.

IMO..a comfortable saddle is one that is the right width (sit bones) that is set at the right height, at the right tilt (either level, slightly tilted up or down) and is then combined with handlebars that are set to the correct "reach" from the saddle.

In short, you can have a really good saddle, but if it's at the wrong height, the tilt or "reach" are incorrect, you will be uncomfortable.

I would advise the OP to start with a saddle with the correct width and set it at the correct height and ensure it is level (use a spirit level). After that, make one small change and try it for a week. If you make a lot of changes at the same time, you'll never figure out what's correct for you.

Wildly Boaring · 10-08-2020 7:31pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

According to Fizik, with my lack of flexibility, I should be using the Antares saddle. I've been using the Arione without any issue.

IMO..a comfortable saddle is one that is the right width (sit bones) that is set at the right height, at the right tilt (either level, slightly tilted up or down) and is then combined with handlebars that are set to the correct "reach" from the saddle.

In short, you can have a really good saddle, but if it's at the wrong height, the tilt or "reach" are incorrect, you will be uncomfortable.

I'm no expert but this is my experience.
My saddle issue boiled down to being up too high.

Dropped the saddle 20 or 25mm and moved my cleats right back.

Back up maybe 10mm and have got into a better position with lower bars since.

No saddle issues on either bike. Two completely different saddles

07Lapierre · 10-08-2020 7:47pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I'm no expert but this is my experience.
My saddle issue boiled down to being up too high.

Dropped the saddle 20 or 25mm and moved my cleats right back.

Back up maybe 10mm and have got into a better position with lower bars since.

No saddle issues on either bike. Two completely different saddles

Agreed...I think a saddle that's a little too low would be more comfortable than a saddle that's too high.

It's not an easy problem to solve, but IMO a saddle that is level and at the right height should not cause the issues the OP describes. It's also worth noting that if you adjust the saddle height, the handlebars also have to be raised/lowered accordingly.

gaffmaster · 10-08-2020 9:08pm

Yep. As I mentioned previously, and I agree with the previous two posts. Stabalize the feet and lower the saddle.

Considering the OP has tried lots of different saddles, it's unlikely that the saddle is the main issue.

CantGetNoSleep · 10-08-2020 9:46pm

I'm no bike fitter but in my experience given the level of discomfort involved, changing bib shorts for will make no difference at all and changing saddle unlikely to do so either.

I find good bib shorts make a difference if I want to be as comfortable on a 5 hour ride as I am on a 2.5 hour one

TheBlaaMan · 10-08-2020 9:59pm

It's not clear if the issue is due to abrasion/rubbing, or to pressure? If the latter then I wouldn't exclude a medical cause as you seem to have eliminated - or have a sense of - a lot of the more 'obvious' potential causes . Medical advice is strictly off limits here but perhaps have a chat with your GP about perineal nodular induration (PNI) "also known as biker's nodule, cyclist's nodule, ischiatic hygroma, third testicle, or an accessory testicle is a benign pseudotumour that presents most commonly in avid male cyclists with repetitive perineal microtrauma" . I think this tends to occur on one, rather than both sides.

I have a ...ahem, friend.....who is developing such an issue and 4 hour spins are becoming a pain in the arse.

D13exile · 11-08-2020 7:59pm

I appreciate all the advice and the offers of saddles to try out. I’m at a crossroads as to what to do now. I’ve placed my faith in my bike fitter since I started cycling 6 years ago as he was recommended on here when I asked for advice back then for the noob cyclist I was. However perhaps my long-standing faith in him has been misplaced? During that 6 years, while my average speed has gone from 23kph to 35kph (on a good day/32kph on a bad day), I’ve never ever gotten comfortable on the bike. Always had a numb ass at best up to a severely sore and painful one. I’ve also suffered from numb hands no matter what riding position I choose or how much I move my hands around. Up to recently, I thought this was just “part and parcel” of doing what is an unnatural exercise for the human anatomy. But from speaking to other cyclists and looking at posts on this forum, I shouldn’t be suffering this much! I accept I should be tired after a spin but not aching.

I spoke to my bike fitter yesterday and told him the adjustments to my bike had left me worse off. I’m returning to him next Monday to change the saddle again. If that doesn’t work, I’ll have to try elsewhere for a bike fit as I’m not a masochist and I can’t keep forcing myself to go out on the bike knowing it’s going to hurt.

I also ordered new, and the most expensive bibs I’ve ever bought, one Assos and one Castelli to see if they make a difference.

So one final question for you all, where do you go for your bike fits? I live in Kildare and so somewhere in the Greater Dublin region would suit, once local lockdown is lifted.

Oh and I really appreciate all the advice to date. One of many reasons I love cycling as perfect strangers are always willing to help out. Thanks guys.

Wildly Boaring · 11-08-2020 10:20pm

Numb hands would again scream bike fit issue to me.

Again no expert
My experience

Numb hands means reaching too far and/or saddle too high.

Saddle too high, you sit too far forward on saddle to compensate. (can get your leg further over pedal and make pedal closer). Throws weight forward = numb hands supporting too much weight and sore bum.

Long stem means throwing weight forward to reach and numb hands. Could then mean chasing your hands forward and poor seating position??

If you're too forward on the saddle your "sit bones" aren't where they should be and all weight down through the middle (gooch)

smacl · 12-08-2020 10:09am

D13exile wrote: »

So one final question for you all, where do you go for your bike fits? I live in Kildare and so somewhere in the Greater Dublin region would suit, once local lockdown is lifted.

Never had a bike fit as I find I can manage a comfortable setup to suit my needs based on various articles and videos I've read and seen. Once you note / photograph your current setup, nothing to stop you trying out a few changes yourself, such as a lower saddle, without involving a new bike fitter. There was a great article posted by doozerie on this forum a few years back which asserted that there is no such thing as a perfect bike fit. Rather there were optimal bike fits for comfort or performance for various distances, terrain and times in the saddle. At a guess, your setup is optimized for performance at the expense of comfort and needs to be tuned more for comfort.

John Hutton · 12-08-2020 10:15am

OP can you borrow a smaller bike with a more upright position and see if that makes a difference?

CramCycle · 13-08-2020 8:29am

nak wrote: »

I would have thought that lowering your bars would cause more pressure on your pelvis. The Specialized Mimic Power saddle might be worth a try, short nose and the cutout has been filled with a squidgy material to alleviate pressure. It's branded as a women's saddle but is also popular with men. Important to get the correct width and can take a bit of tweaking to the bike fit to get it right.

+1 all of the issues described by the OP here sound like dropping the bar was a terrrible idea. If I was to make one change based solely on guesswork would be to raise the bars and possibly bring them back closer to you. Possibly drop the saddle or move it forward a bit. The OP wants comfort over speed and the bike fitter seems to be aiming to fit him for speed over comfort, which is fine over an hour or two but not 3 or 4 hours in the saddle, sounds like the fitter was trying to turn it into a TT bike fit.
@ the OP, did you specify you wanted comfort not speed?

D13exile · 13-08-2020 9:02am

CramCycle wrote: »

+1 all of the issues described by the OP here sound like dropping the bar was a terrrible idea. If I was to make one change based solely on guesswork would be to raise the bars and possibly bring them back closer to you. Possibly drop the saddle or move it forward a bit. The OP wants comfort over speed and the bike fitter seems to be aiming to fit him for speed over comfort, which is fine over an hour or two but not 3 or 4 hours in the saddle, sounds like the fitter was trying to turn it into a TT bike fit.
@ the OP, did you specify you wanted comfort not speed?

I’m at a cross roads here and getting pretty frustrated tbh. This guy I’ve been going to since 2014 came highly recommended (through Boards) at the time. I’ve put my total faith in him. To be fair to him, after my first bike fit, he did solve the issues I’d been having with pains in my legs from an incorrect saddle height and reach. The latest refit saw him lower the bars by one spacer ring and tilting the saddle down at the front. I’ve always had numb hands issues but this has made them worse. Tilting the saddle has also caused me to slide forward. 90% of my cycling is done on the hoods with the remainder on the top of the bars. I never use the drops as I find my neck hurts. While I can maintain a good average speed, I’m no racer and a comfort fit is my preference over a racing fit. He knows this as I told him and so I don’t know why he’d set it up for racing? My bike has an endurance geometry and so should be tuned to the comfort style.

Again, when I was a complete noob and asked for help with aches and pains, I was told a proper bike fit was the way to go. I had set the bike up initially myself using YouTube videos but I was suffering leg aches. The fitter moved the seat a few mms and solved these. I’d be worried that if I started tinkering around with it, I’d cause myself more issues.

I need to get the right saddle first and foremost. Then it has to be set up right which is the hard part. I’ve another appointment with him next week to give him back the chamber of horrors saddle he put on. He said he’ll fit a narrower version of my original selle Italian saddle as the next step. I’m in two minds whether to agree to that or just to cut my losses and refit my old saddle (which made me numb but wasn’t as bad as the latest saddle).

07Lapierre · 13-08-2020 9:15am

If your old saddle is better... use it. All saddles will make you numb, if its at the incorrect angle. Don't be afraid to make adjustments yourself. they key is to only make one change each time. Ride your bike a few times and see if that one change has made any difference. if it hasn't, put it back the way it was and try something else. Lets face it, at this point you've nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Start with your older saddle. Fit it and make sure its level. That should be your starting point.

CramCycle · 13-08-2020 9:40am

Just to be clear, it is hard to give any useful advice without seeing you on your bike, so please take anything I say with a pinch of salt. I am guessing what the issues may be but its impossible to say if I am speaking out of my arse with out seeing the whole picture.

D13exile wrote: »

The latest refit saw him lower the bars by one spacer ring and tilting the saddle down at the front. I’ve always had numb hands issues but this has made them worse. Tilting the saddle has also caused me to slide forward. 90% of my cycling is done on the hoods with the remainder on the top of the bars. I never use the drops as I find my neck hurts. While I can maintain a good average speed, I’m no racer and a comfort fit is my preference over a racing fit. He knows this as I told him and so I don’t know why he’d set it up for racing? My bike has an endurance geometry and so should be tuned to the comfort style.

If you can't use the drops at the minute, there is either an issue with your flexibility or the bars are too low. It's not a good sign, either way, that he dropped the bars IMO. Particularly if you are getting numb hands as you are now putting more pressure on them. Also the saddle tilt thing, I am not sold on this as a good idea, particularly for comfort riding. As your noticing, your sliding forwards, this will lead to shoulder pain and neck issues on long rides eventually. I personally would have it level, and depending on what the sit issue is either move it forward a bit if possible (which will feel like its been lowered in many cases), it will mean you actually sit on your sit bones. If he was using sit bone software, it can easily tell a fitter what they want to hear, lowering your saddle and tilting it becomes the solution to everything if you just want to see less pressure on the saddle at those points.

Again, when I was a complete noob and asked for help with aches and pains, I was told a proper bike fit was the way to go. I had set the bike up initially myself using YouTube videos but I was suffering leg aches. The fitter moved the seat a few mms and solved these. I’d be worried that if I started tinkering around with it, I’d cause myself more issues.

I think its worth going back and if they are a decent business, this one should be on the house, even if its just ot move it back to where you were before

I need to get the right saddle first and foremost.

Some fizik dealers will loan you the fizik "trial saddles". Might be worth having a look. The easiest way though is to actually sit on your hands, move your fingers until the tips of your fingers are directly under the sit bones. Measure this distance and see does it fit with the saddle recommendation or your old one.

Then it has to be set up right which is the hard part. I’ve another appointment with him next week to give him back the chamber of horrors saddle he put on. He said he’ll fit a narrower version of my original selle Italian saddle as the next step. I’m in two minds whether to agree to that or just to cut my losses and refit my old saddle (which made me numb but wasn’t as bad as the latest saddle).

Refitting a saddle that didn't work in the first place isn't really the right answer either.

Las question, is the way you sit on the bike during a fitting actually the way you sit on your bike when you are out for a ride?

smacl · 13-08-2020 11:23am

Just one thing to add to the above, if you've been in pain from a recent ride (sounds dodgy!), take a few of days off the bike before trying a new setup. Quite possible you're undercarriage is slightly bruised and/or inflamed and any time on the bike is going to feel sore until it has had a chance to recover properly. There are plenty of people of your weight and build spending lots of time on the bike with no issues, so it is a problem that can in all likelihood be solved. If you're not already doing them, regular flexibility are core training will also help.

dave_o_brien · 13-08-2020 12:57pm

6ft, 43inch chest, 94kg myself. Probably carrying a bit more fat than you, but hardly rolling in it. Very comfortable on the bike, though getting slower all the time.

My opinion (and that's all it is) is that your primary issue is with the fit and the saddle and the bib-shorts are the final elements that will make your long spins all the more enjoyable. Relying on them to sort the issue is probably misplaces.

There's an awful lot to unpack and understand about your specific set of problems. It sounds like you have suffered with discomfort in your seating position for a long time, coupled with numbness in the delicates, numbness in the hands and an inability to get comfortable in the drops. As others have said, it's really impossible to comment on why without seeing you on the bike and knowing your range of motion off it. It would be easy to speculate about issues with the size of the bike, length of stem, fore/aft issues and on and on and on... It's just unknowable without being able to see you and the rothar.

The fact that you're engaging with a bike fitter is probably a good thing. It's unfortunate that this hasn't dealt with the issue already, but I'd engage with him/her (although I'm confident I read him already, so I'll go with that from now on) and explain that despite his help, you haven't gotten comfortable. Hopefully he can help, but I would get proactive yourself too. A person's "ideal position" changes with time and capacity.

As someone above just said, if you've been experiencing pain that endures off the bike, the 1st thing I'd do is take a week of two off. Let your body recover. If you have a microtrauma and are just going to persist sitting on the bike without letting yourself recover, you may never find yourself comfortable due to repeatedly stressing the pre-existing trauma. You might, possibly, need to heal first.

In my mind, I'd do the following in this order:

1. Rest until no pain, swelling or discomfort anywhere remains.
2. Work hard with lots of tweaking to find a better position.
3. Experiment with saddles.
4. Experiment with bib-shorts.
5. Coffee.

I hope you get sorted sooner rather than later.

gaffmaster · 13-08-2020 1:28pm

Lots of good advice coming in on this thread. I'd just add, don't be afraid to try a different fitter if you're not happy after your next visit.

Assuming there's nothing medically wrong down there, a fitter with a different approach might be able sort your problems instantly. Some fitters stick to the rules of (for example) the Retul system, which isn't for everyone and is not a holistic approach.

In terms of saddle choice, every fitter has their favourites. One fitter I've used insists Fizik are the worst brand out there and highly recommends Fabric. Another I've used doesn't like Fabric at all. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince haha.

D13exile · 14-08-2020 10:57am

07Lapierre wrote: »

If your old saddle is better... use it. All saddles will make you numb, if its at the incorrect angle. Don't be afraid to make adjustments yourself. they key is to only make one change each time. Ride your bike a few times and see if that one change has made any difference. if it hasn't, put it back the way it was and try something else. Lets face it, at this point you've nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Start with your older saddle. Fit it and make sure its level. That should be your starting point.

My old saddle was a Selle Italia which was the best of the three I'd used up to recently. It still made me numb in the ass (but didn't crush the man bits like the new one does!!) and I'd still have to stand up and cycle for 30-60 seconds every ten minutes to get relief in the posterior area. That saddle was level but the fitter put a downward angle on the new one.

CramCycle wrote: »

Just to be clear, it is hard to give any useful advice without seeing you on your bike, so please take anything I say with a pinch of salt. I am guessing what the issues may be but its impossible to say if I am speaking out of my arse with out seeing the whole picture. If you can't use the drops at the minute, there is either an issue with your flexibility or the bars are too low. It's not a good sign, either way, that he dropped the bars IMO. Particularly if you are getting numb hands as you are now putting more pressure on them. Also the saddle tilt thing, I am not sold on this as a good idea, particularly for comfort riding. As your noticing, your sliding forwards, this will lead to shoulder pain and neck issues on long rides eventually. I personally would have it level, and depending on what the sit issue is either move it forward a bit if possible (which will feel like its been lowered in many cases), it will mean you actually sit on your sit bones. If he was using sit bone software, it can easily tell a fitter what they want to hear, lowering your saddle and tilting it becomes the solution to everything if you just want to see less pressure on the saddle at those points.

I think its worth going back and if they are a decent business, this one should be on the house, even if its just ot move it back to where you were before

Some fizik dealers will loan you the fizik "trial saddles". Might be worth having a look. The easiest way though is to actually sit on your hands, move your fingers until the tips of your fingers are directly under the sit bones. Measure this distance and see does it fit with the saddle recommendation or your old one.

Refitting a saddle that didn't work in the first place isn't really the right answer either.

Las question, is the way you sit on the bike during a fitting actually the way you sit on your bike when you are out for a ride?

I'm pretty flexible for my age (51) and can touch my toes etc. I use a backballer (foam roller thingy) to work on the muscles groups to keep them loose. I find that if I try to use the drops, my knees are banging off my belly (which is pretty firm and little flab) and I soon get neck strain. When the fitter was looking at me on the bike last week, it was in my usual riding position of on the hoods.

smacl wrote: »

Just one thing to add to the above, if you've been in pain from a recent ride (sounds dodgy!), take a few of days off the bike before trying a new setup. Quite possible you're undercarriage is slightly bruised and/or inflamed and any time on the bike is going to feel sore until it has had a chance to recover properly. There are plenty of people of your weight and build spending lots of time on the bike with no issues, so it is a problem that can in all likelihood be solved. If you're not already doing them, regular flexibility are core training will also help.

My last cycle was last Sunday and I've taken this week off to recover as I did feel I'd bruised something down there. After my next session with him (and possibly last!!) next Monday, I plan on going on a 50km ride to see if this new saddle works. If not, it's coming off and the old one going back on for a while until I decide what to do.

dave_o_brien wrote: »

6ft, 43inch chest, 94kg myself. Probably carrying a bit more fat than you, but hardly rolling in it. Very comfortable on the bike, though getting slower all the time.

My opinion (and that's all it is) is that your primary issue is with the fit and the saddle and the bib-shorts are the final elements that will make your long spins all the more enjoyable. Relying on them to sort the issue is probably misplaces.

There's an awful lot to unpack and understand about your specific set of problems. It sounds like you have suffered with discomfort in your seating position for a long time, coupled with numbness in the delicates, numbness in the hands and an inability to get comfortable in the drops. As others have said, it's really impossible to comment on why without seeing you on the bike and knowing your range of motion off it. It would be easy to speculate about issues with the size of the bike, length of stem, fore/aft issues and on and on and on... It's just unknowable without being able to see you and the rothar.

The fact that you're engaging with a bike fitter is probably a good thing. It's unfortunate that this hasn't dealt with the issue already, but I'd engage with him/her (although I'm confident I read him already, so I'll go with that from now on) and explain that despite his help, you haven't gotten comfortable. Hopefully he can help, but I would get proactive yourself too. A person's "ideal position" changes with time and capacity.

As someone above just said, if you've been experiencing pain that endures off the bike, the 1st thing I'd do is take a week of two off. Let your body recover. If you have a microtrauma and are just going to persist sitting on the bike without letting yourself recover, you may never find yourself comfortable due to repeatedly stressing the pre-existing trauma. You might, possibly, need to heal first.

In my mind, I'd do the following in this order:

1. Rest until no pain, swelling or discomfort anywhere remains.
2. Work hard with lots of tweaking to find a better position.
3. Experiment with saddles.
4. Experiment with bib-shorts.
5. Coffee.

I hope you get sorted sooner rather than later.

Thanks.

To add to my earlier measurements, I'm five ten and my bike is a 56cm frame which I was told is my ideal size. I'm going to give this guy one last try to get me comfortable but then I'm cutting my losses. I'll either try another fitter or restrict my cycles to an hour which is about all I can manage before serious discomfort sets in. That will end my dream of doing the Ring of Kerry (longest I've done to date is a 140km).

gaffmaster wrote: »

Lots of good advice coming in on this thread. I'd just add, don't be afraid to try a different fitter if you're not happy after your next visit.

Assuming there's nothing medically wrong down there, a fitter with a different approach might be able sort your problems instantly. Some fitters stick to the rules of (for example) the Retul system, which isn't for everyone and is not a holistic approach.

In terms of saddle choice, every fitter has their favourites. One fitter I've used insists Fizik are the worst brand out there and highly recommends Fabric. Another I've used doesn't like Fabric at all. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince haha.

Trying a different fitter was the next option on my list. Apart from the guy I've been using, the only other one I've heard of is in north county Dublin and I believe he uses the Retul system.

Thank you all again for the advice.

YakerK · 14-08-2020 11:25am

I would echo the changing many things at once comments - the saddle may be the most likely culprit, but the other changes made could mean that it's not the main or sole reason for discomfort.

I'd also discuss the actual frame with your fitter. I went to a fitter (whom from your description I think was the same one) a few years ago to deal with shoulder pain and wrist numbness which occurred after 100k or more rides - I did the Wicklow 200 and was in agony for the last 50k or so. He changed a few things, but made a slight passing comment on the bike itself, but didn't push that point.

The changes he made definitely helped, but didn't solve the issue. Year or so later I upgraded the bike and set up myself broadly using the measurements he gave me. The bike was supposedly the same size, but the difference was unreal. I get no discomfort whatsoever on the new one. New frame did allow me to fit 28mm tires though, so that might be a bigger factor than the frame, but something worked!

I think he was mainly working with what I had when I was with him, but looking back it's clear to me now that if I had asked the question differently and put new frame/other equipment on the table I would have gotten that issue solved even quicker.

D13exile · 14-08-2020 11:55am

YakerK wrote: »

I would echo the changing many things at once comments - the saddle may be the most likely culprit, but the other changes made could mean that it's not the main or sole reason for discomfort.

I'd also discuss the actual frame with your fitter. I went to a fitter (whom from your description I think was the same one) a few years ago to deal with shoulder pain and wrist numbness which occurred after 100k or more rides - I did the Wicklow 200 and was in agony for the last 50k or so. He changed a few things, but made a slight passing comment on the bike itself, but didn't push that point.

The changes he made definitely helped, but didn't solve the issue. Year or so later I upgraded the bike and set up myself broadly using the measurements he gave me. The bike was supposedly the same size, but the difference was unreal. I get no discomfort whatsoever on the new one. New frame did allow me to fit 28mm tires though, so that might be a bigger factor than the frame, but something worked!

I think he was mainly working with what I had when I was with him, but looking back it's clear to me now that if I had asked the question differently and put new frame/other equipment on the table I would have gotten that issue solved even quicker.

It's the same guy alright but he has done his best for me and loaned me this new saddle. Perhaps my bike is wrong for me and he's too polite to say that out straight as a new bike is an expensive option to cure a numb ass!! I was considering a change of tyre too as my old Conti 4000's are due for retirement. They're 700x25 (which I've heard are closer to 23) while the newer 5000 are truer to size.

MojoMaker · 14-08-2020 12:35pm

If your knees are touching your stomach when you're in the drops your bars are way too low and your saddle most likely not at the optimum height either - I can't imagine the position you have on the bike actually - that's crazy aggressive.

I'm the same height as you and I ride a 52 and a 54. had a 56 on loan and it was awfully uncomfortable. Now sizing is not uniform between manufacturers so one man's 56 is another man's 52 so you're only really going to know by stack and reach measurement to be sure.

I reckon you need to get much higher on the bike and you'll start to really enjoy a more upright position. At 51 and a non-elite athlete, it won't make a blind bit of difference to your performance and in fact a more comfortable position may allow you to push more watts through the pedals. Definitely won't be as mentally tired if you're not worrying about managing pain. No downside to that choice at all as far as I can see.

D13exile · 14-08-2020 1:07pm

MojoMaker wrote: »

If your knees are touching your stomach when you're in the drops your bars are way too low and your saddle most likely not at the optimum height either - I can't imagine the position you have on the bike actually - that's crazy aggressive.

I'm the same height as you and I ride a 52 and a 54. had a 56 on loan and it was awfully uncomfortable. Now sizing is not uniform between manufacturers so one man's 56 is another man's 52 so you're only really going to know by stack and reach measurement to be sure.

I reckon you need to get much higher on the bike and you'll start to really enjoy a more upright position. At 51 and a non-elite athlete, it won't make a blind bit of difference to your performance and in fact a more comfortable position may allow you to push more watts through the pedals. Definitely won't be as mentally tired if you're not worrying about managing pain. No downside to that choice at all as far as I can see.

My bike is a Trek and its a 56cm frame. I bought the bike in 2014 in Wheelworx in Lucan. They were in two minds whether I was a 54cm or 56cm frame size but as they had a 54cm in stock, I thought they were trying to push that one on me and it felt "cramped" when I took it for a test ride.

I've never felt comfortable in the drops. I feel too low down, I can't breathe properly and like I said, my knees are up to my chest/belly. I can cycle just as fast if not faster on the hoods.

The really frustrating thing about my cycling, and the point that you made so well, is that instead of concentrating on pushing harder and going faster, I spend most of my time thinking about how bloody uncomfortable I am. I can do 10-15km stretches at a constant 35kph but then I can see from my stats later where that falls off to 26kph when I get to the point that I'm so uncomfortable that I have to stand in the pedals for lengthy periods. After numerous visits to my fitter, I should be well tuned to the bike now, not getting bloody worse! Sorry but my frustration is creeping in here!

hesker · 14-08-2020 5:22pm

Can you post a photo of your bike. Would like to see the drop.

Desperately need help to get comfortable on the bike

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