Will the World Championship Go Ahead as Normal??

FR01 · 26-04-2020 2:16pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The '3 big tournaments' concept is a modern day thing though, you shouldn't really apply it too far into the past (and nor should the BBC :rolleyes:) to calculate players merit.

For example the Grand Prix was massive in the 90s, a 2 week televised event with a prize fund similar to the UK Championship. White was 2 from 3 in finals in that.

The Grand Prix was always one of my favourites from the Rothmans days, however i felt it lost a touch of glamour when Skoda took over, Ken had two runners up in the Grand Prix also. Correct me if I’m wrong though but I never recall it being a two week televised event ?

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 2:23pm

Dont remember any tournament been 2 weeks other than worlds and uk. But every tournament felt huge back then, given there were obviously less of them, remember taylor winning the grand prix after the death of his mother and even though i wasnt a fan, that was a huge victory.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 2:27pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Jimmy White has had 319 century breaks in 40 years of professional snooker. The tables have been in great shape since the 90s. Thats approx 8 centuries per season. Ronnie hit 6 or 7 in one match once. Different gravy.

I'm not sure anyone was making that comparison?

I'm just a bit sceptical about reading much into total centuries tbh. I mean Marco Fu made 100 more career centuries than Steve Davis ergo Marco is the greater player. Doesnt work that way for me anyway.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 2:30pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone was making that comparison?

I'm just a bit sceptical about reading much into total centuries tbh. I mean Marco Fu made 100 more career centuries than Steve Davis ergo Marco is the greater player. Doesnt work that way for me anyway.

I enjoy the stats side of the game and the tournaments roll of honour.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 2:37pm

Hard to compare eras but snooker players were as big as footballers back in the 80s. Especially when Hearn took over and they had that snooker loopy song out. There was only 3 channels on tv and snooker got massive exposure with 20 million watching the 1985 black ball final. It made super heroes out of all the players and was a great time for snooker fans.

Would Jimmy be as famous or succesful if he came on the scene now? Not a chance. The likes of Trump, Robertson are better left handers. Thep and Wenbo play as fast as Jimmy. All exciting left handers. Same as Jimmy. Difference is there's so many of them now. The competition is massive. And no snooker players bar Ronnie are sporting household names in homes in Ireland and UK (bar snooker fans like us) anymore. If Jimmy was around now he'd be just another good snooker player.

Arthur Daley · 26-04-2020 2:43pm

Challenging Times: Davis-Taylor the 'black ball' final

35 years now! On Wednesday

https://www.rte.ie/sport/snooker/2020/0425/1134804-challenging-times-davis-taylor-the-black-ball-final/
Includes a quiz for you at home (got 9/10 thanks to the obscure Charles Dickens question)

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 2:50pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Hard to compare eras but snooker players were as big as footballers back in the 80s. Especially when Hearn took over and they had that snooker loopy song out. There was only 3 channels on tv and snooker got massive exposure with 20 million watching the 1985 black ball final. It made super heroes out of all the players and was a great time for snooker fans.

Would Jimmy be as famous or succesful if he came on the scene now? Not a chance. The likes of Trump, Robertson are better left handers. Thep and Wenbo play as fast as Jimmy. All exciting left handers. Same as Jimmy. Difference is there's so many of them now. The competition is massive. And no snooker players bar Ronnie are sporting household names in homes in Ireland and UK (bar snooker fans like us) anymore. If Jimmy was around now he'd be just another good snooker player.

You'll just never be a jimmy man, will you chalk ;-)

FR01 · 26-04-2020 2:53pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You'll just never be a jimmy man, will you chalk ;-)

I was kinda fond of Perrie Mans myself :-)

ArmaniJeanss · 26-04-2020 2:53pm

FR01 wrote: »

The Grand Prix was always one of my favourites from the Rothmans days, however i felt it lost a touch of glamour when Skoda took over, Ken had two runners up in the Grand Prix also. Correct me if I’m wrong though but I never recall it being a two week televised event ?

Yes, I phrased that badly. It was a 2 week event but the first round wasn't televised. So it would go R64 from Monday to Friday, then tv coverage would start with the R32 on the Saturday concluding the following weekend. That's my memory of how it was anyway :P
1988

Hexagon in Reading was a great venue for it.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 2:56pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You'll just never be a jimmy man, will you chalk ;-)

I do like Jimmy and think he was a great player. Just not as good as some make out.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 2:58pm

FR01 wrote: »

I was kinda fond of Perrie Mans myself :-)

Proper snooker when you could win a masters without having even a 50 break!

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 3:01pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

I do like Jimmy and think he was a great player. Just not as good as some make out.

Ok, just tell me you'd at least rank him above wenbo and thepchaiya in the left handers pantheon and i might meet you half way!

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 3:03pm

I was heartbroken when Jimmy missed that black in the deciding frame v Hendry and Hendry cleared up. It's one of my oldest memories of snooker. Sitting at home as a young lad watching the final with my mam n dad and all of us rooting for Jimmy. I hated Hendry with a passion back in the 90s (like him now). Steve Davis was my favourite but i wanted Jimmy to win a World Championship as much as the next man. Alas it wasn't to be.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 3:04pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ok, just tell me you'd at least rank him above wenbo and thepchaiya in the left handers pantheon and i might meet you half way!

Of course ha.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 3:07pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Yes, I phrased that badly. It was a 2 week event but the first round wasn't televised. So it would go R64 from Monday to Friday, then tv coverage would start with the R32 on the Saturday concluding the following weekend. That's my memory of how it was anyway :P
1988

Hexagon in Reading was a great venue for it.

Some great names from the past there. Loved Cliff Wilson. One of great unfulfilled talents. As was Pat Houlihan. Jimmy White said Houlihan was the most talented player he'd ever seen.

ArmaniJeanss · 26-04-2020 3:10pm

The thing about centuries is (generalising here) players didn't really go for them. Obviously they did happen, there were century breaks.

But the basic professional way to win a frame of snooker was to win an initial safety battle, pick off the loose reds in a 40/50 break, run for cover, win another safety battle and get another 30 points to seal the frame.
You never went into the pack if there was a loose red available, so unless you had the perfect angle after the last loose red then it was end of break. 'Take the loose reds first' was effectively a mantra, everyone was taught that.

It was Hendry who blew this apart, going into the pack at the first available opportunity and attempting to win frames in one visit. It seems obvious now, but it was absolutely revolutionary compared to what had gone before him. He doubtless wasn't the first to try to win this way, but he was the first to have the ability.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 3:22pm

Thats all absolutely true. Hendry did change the game as regards mentality. Spencer had done the same two decades before, the first real modern attacking player in the game.

It was also so much harder to split a pack back then. Combination of heavier cloth, heavier balls meant you usually had to put your shoulder right through the shot to get any kind of split. Compare to Ronnie now, just gentle little canons and he knows he'll knock a few out each time and much less chance of losing control of the shot. It's just a different game on so many levels.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 3:35pm

Other thing about hendry, he didnt have great cue power, which i think was a shortcoming back then. He has talked about certain shots he never liked playing and i think that came down to his relative lack of cue power. Wouldnt matter so much now. Fu and Allen are guys i could see having issues before, but lack of cue power not too much a hindrance nowadays.

ArmaniJeanss · 26-04-2020 3:44pm

Random question of the day, and then I'll shut up.

If you were designing the game from scratch would you put the colour values where they currently are?
I've often pondered if it would be more challenging/interesting if the black/pink/blue were on the baulk line, and the yellow was where the black now is.
So making a large break wouldn't be possible by minimal cue ball movement the way it is now - you'd have to travel up and down the table and all shots would be harder.
We basically inherited the current structure from army officers in the Raj, who probably didn't put a whole lot of thought into it either way.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 4:06pm

Interesting one, dunno really is the answer. Always do quite like it though when pink and black are out of commish and a player has to test himself by going up and down the table. But people want to see big breaks, 147 is the magic number, remember how mythical it was before they all started to do it.

Reminds me, anyone remember that wheeze they came up with called power snooker. Now that was an idea always destined to fail.

Arthur Daley · 26-04-2020 4:19pm

The way the game has gone in the last twenty to twenty five years, it has been mastered by players like Hendry, O'Sullivan in particular, but also Higgins, Williams, Selby to a lesser extent. Trump adds a new dimension at least, with the flair and risk taking side of his game.
If the next iteration of a John Higgins or Hendry emerged next year, it could risk bringing the game to the point where the traditional rules dating back to the days of the Raj would have to be looked at. At times I watch them and think where will this game be in another twenty years, they are just so damn good. So it wouldn't be as bad as F1 changing every season, but the upskilling of the players and technology advances may force a significant rule change like this.

FR01 · 26-04-2020 5:07pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Random question of the day, and then I'll shut up.

If you were designing the game from scratch would you put the colour values where they currently are?
I've often pondered if it would be more challenging/interesting if the black/pink/blue were on the baulk line, and the yellow was where the black now is.
So making a large break wouldn't be possible by minimal cue ball movement the way it is now - you'd have to travel up and down the table and all shots would be harder.
We basically inherited the current structure from army officers in the Raj, who probably didn't put a whole lot of thought into it either way.

I recall in the late ‘50’s they toyed with the idea of another colour, the idea was invented by the great Joe Davis and it involved an extra colour, a purple ball positioned between blue and brown and an orange ball between pink and blue.It was called snooker plus, the orange was worth 8 points and the purple ten points, making a possible maximum of 210.Thankfully it never caught on !

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 5:09pm

Interesting stuff lads. Good to have a few knowledgeable snooker boffins from quite a while back. The history of the game is fascinating. If i could ever meet the lad/lads who invented this great game i'd buy them a pint and enjoy their story. Well maybe if they were still alive and we could actually get a pint somewhere

FR01 · 26-04-2020 5:15pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Interesting stuff lads. Good to have a few knowledgeable snooker boffins from quite a while back. The history of the game is fascinating. If i could ever meet the lad/lads who invented this great game i'd buy them a pint and enjoy their story. Well maybe if they were still alive and we could actually get a pint somewhere

Neville Chamberlin invented the game in 1875 whilst stationed in India obviously long gone now but the building where he invented it still stands to this day alongside the table he played on. Dennis Taylor paid a visit to it several years back and it was recorded as I recall for some television show.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 5:20pm

FR01 wrote: »

Neville Chamberlin invented the game in 1875 whilst stationed in India obviously long gone now but the building where he invented it still stands to this day alongside the table he played on. Dennis Taylor paid a visit to it several years back and it was recorded as I recall for some television show.

Thats fantastic. Can't believe the table is still there. That could become a place of pilgrimage for snooker fans from all over the globe. It would be nice to see a top Indian snooker player.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 5:20pm

"from quite a while back" ie bunch of old codgers ☺

I'm not sure i see too many players mastering the game. Great thing about snooker is pressure is always a great leveller, never enough to be just a great potter. They could always make the tables tougher if they wanted and tbh i think there's more danger of not enough John Higginses than too few. Time will tell i guess.

FR01 · 26-04-2020 5:28pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"from quite a while back" ie bunch of old codgers ☺

I'm not sure i see too many players mastering the game. Great thing about snooker is pressure is always a great leveller, never enough to be just a great potter. They could always make the tables tougher if they wanted and tbh i think there's more danger of not enough John Higginses than too few. Time will tell i guess.

It’s always being a question I liked to ask, if your life depended on it who would you trust not to bottle it ie play the right shot.
The obvious would be Hendry and Higgins and Davis, however pressure can make the absolute greats seem like normal club players. I suppose you could count on one hand the amount of times they played the wrong shot, Davis in the 85 final on that infamous black, Taylor misses, Davis gets up walks straight to the table and attempts the cut, never looks at the potting angle, hits the white too hard. Hendry in the masters final v williams on the black ball decider, he rolls the white across the table to pot the black and duly misses, he’s since set that shot up several times and plays the shot with a little bit more pace on the white taking out the risk of the nap pulling the cue ball off line. Rambling here a bit but I think they all feel the pressure in some way or another.

Joe_ Public · 26-04-2020 6:26pm

I think thats absolutely true. They've all played bad shots under pressure numerous times i would say. Like that ronnie pink at 11-11 in the 2014 final, why does he play it so hard? Is he just being ronnie or does he think he needs black and plays position on it? Never been able to figure that one out.

Hendry would be my choice anyway, but any of top 4 or 5 greats would be ok.

Playing the right shot the right way is such a key aspect of the game though. Selby has this mastered more than anyone i think, the balance between attack and containment, at his best he invariably gets it right. Whereas, talented as he is, i think a guy like Neil Robertson often gets it wrong.

OutTheGap · 26-04-2020 6:38pm

Davis seemed really rattled on the black against Taylor in 85. The one he tried to double wasn’t the percentage shot and he definitely rushed the final cut on the black. Unique pressure it must be said.

Chalk McHugh · 26-04-2020 6:44pm

That famous Davis miss on the black is never an easy shot. I regularly see players miss a similiar shot when under little or no pressure. Hard to know what he could have done to go for it and leave an element of safety if he missed. I can only imagine the pressure and how tired he must have been after two weeks and especially 3 days of hard match snooker. He was shattered. From 8-0 up to now everything on one last tricky black. No point hanging around at that stage.

Will the World Championship Go Ahead as Normal??

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